Spoutnik says Bip-bip-bip [IMM fastest Space Colony]

[kossin]

Hehe

It's not an easy start for sure because you lack commerce. However you're coastal and on a peninsula.

Priority to productive second city for expansion. The usual techs are not too expensive.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Pretty interesting start. The city with furs, and marble is THE key of your empire

Pretty sure it's best to split the pigs and clams between two cities.
You get one mediocre city by sharing the food tiles. 2 mediocre cities by splitting them. Also more food surplus due to more city tiles, and more production due to 2H city tile for pigs city.
If sharing resulted in an awesome city, sure, but that isn't the case, here.
Finally, note there is another plains hills to the east (to settle on) that can access both marble and pigs with a border pop.
Dotmap in the east requires more map knowledge.

I am surprised by your enthusiasm for Fishing. As I see it, AH is expensive, but you already possess Hunting and Agriculture, so it isn't going to get any cheaper.

But AH isn't the only tech that is needed... The Wheel, Writing is the bare minimum but Sailing, Pottery & Bronze Working are all important techs. Mysticism, Masonry should also get some attention.
If one can grow and work the two lakes, that is 4 additional commerce: close to a 50% increase!
Thus, having Fishing will result in faster research overall.

However, the use one can make of Fishing is dependent upon growth: if a settler is started at low size (to counter IMP neighbour?), then one might not have the luxury to work the lakes.
AH, Wheel, and then backfill Fishing might then indeed be best.

are three sites that interest me at this stage: BSTS

BSTS?

 

[Thrar]

Like Doshin, I don't see the point in Fishing either. Clams are not that great, and lakes only become half-decent with a lighthouse.
AH won't get any cheaper and you need it, both for your capital and whatever will become your second site. Regarding tech cost, it also gives you a 20% bonus on Writing.

The one marked as "better short term" looks a lot stronger to me as well. I'd settle my second city there, and again, that needs AH. Chop the spices for a granary, then whip a library.

What do you mean by burning one turn on the grass hill? If you're getting AH, surely the worker should go for the corn followed by the cow? Although I'd consider roading the forest for a net cost of one worker turn.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

What do you mean by burning one turn on the grass hill? If you're getting AH, surely the worker should go for the corn followed by the cow? Although I'd consider roading the forest for a net cost of one worker turn.

"Burning one turn":
With the objective of improving corn, plains hills, green hill, Tachywaxon referred to improving the green hill before the plains hills (and burning an additionnal turn moving onto a hill).

Tachywaxon won't have The Wheel/AH to improve anything but a hill after the corn.
If research is set to Fishing (a tech that has its weak points, I agree), then the worker will have to improve 2 hills after the corn.
Improving the plains hills first saves worker turns but city may not work that mine asap if it delays growth to size 3. However, as a matter of fact, it does not: city is 23/24F when the plains hills can be improved, if I'm not mistaken (feel free to check).
EDIT: consequence: if growth to size 4 is the objective, then working the plains hills asap would delay growth.
EDIT2: if growth to size 5 is the objective... then grass hill should be worked at size 4 (10 turns after corn is improved, growing on corn, lakes) and size 5 is reached 15 turns after the corn is improved. May be unwise since that is a serious delay on the settler. Cyrus may have his 3rd city settled by then.

 

[Manco Capac]

Looks like the nice city location is claimed by Cyrus after all!

T12

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T15

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Decisions, decisions.

I could let Cyrus settles, hoping him to settle on flat land or I could block his settlement with my scout...but that might lead to a sorry permanent war state that might never end.

What are your suggestions folks?



Again, I save and see your opinions. This time, I am gonna play in a semi-Succession game format.

 

[kossin]

Ugh, I guess it was to be expected. I'm no expert on early DoWs so I'm gonna leave that to you
My typical-conservative move is to let him be but that's me. I play for high success% rather than optimum.

Pray for horses?

 

[Thrar]

Well, you're the AI expert...

So I guess the two accompanying archers would not attack your scout while they're tasked to cover the settler? Would the AI settle a new city one tile away from an enemy unit that can't attack?
Does the AI pick one location to settle and stick to it, or will it pick another one if the first choice is blocked? If it does that, you probably can't block it for long - there are just too many possible locations available.

Finally, even if you're sure you can successfully block the AI here, it will be tough to make peace while all you have is a scout and a warrior or two. You can't even steal a worker for some war success. He'll build more military than otherwise, making it harder to eventually capture his cities. Bottom line, I don't think it's worth it even in the best of cases.

 

[ben-jammin]

Well...there is commerce. Cap can have six grassland cottages worked by helper cities that you're gonna have to settle anyway. Are you Stalin? GLighthouse would be a no-brainer. Food kind of sucks so the mids are probably a waste of hammers.

I wonder if you could pull off MC oracle, GLighthouse+Colossus coastal city spam. And if you could, if it would even be worth it without the financial trait. If horses pop up and Cyrus has better land than what you're looking at...

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I agree the GLH is by far the best way to play this, but with this start you don't have a chance in a hell to get the Oracle.

 

[Doshin]

BSTS?

Too... many... acronyms. Sorry. 'Better Short Term Spot.'

Are you Stalin? GLighthouse would be a no-brainer. Food kind of sucks so the mids are probably a waste of hammers.

I wonder if you could pull off MC oracle, GLighthouse+Colossus coastal city spam. And if you could, if it would even be worth it without the financial trait.

It's Peter.

---

@Tachy

Has Cyrus met anyone else yet?

My guess is that he'll settle on the current Scout spot, since this grabs the Spices as well as two Elephants and a Wheat. The AI seems to overly value resources in determining city spots, which is why they will settle right in your face when they've no hope of claiming a resource in one of your inner culture rings. And Darius is a slight warmonger, which in my experience leads to more hill settles. Or maybe it just feels that way...

I wouldn't declare war, but then I'm a wimp and know far less about trolling the AI in the early game than you. I'd ask two questions:

(1) Is that spot worth more to you than the loss of trade routes and tech brokering opportunities? If Darius is the only neighbor, his presence makes the GLH much much stronger before you find some islands. And trading for Alphabet + Monarchy will be worth, what, 800 ? That's not too shabby.

(2) Can you control a war with just a Scout? Probably, but unless Horses show up with AH, you'll need to tech Archery immediately (c.60 beakers?). And you may have to go to extreme lengths to prevent Darius ever hooking up Horses of his own.

If this answer is yes in both cases, go for it.

---

The Oracle is only worth an outside punt if you decide to build the GLH and if it still hasn't gone by time that you reach Masonry and have access to the Marble. Meditation is needed for Philosophy, Polytheism is needed for Literature and Music. So if you still can't quite make it, Priesthood is the only wasteful tech.

Like BIC, I love the ToA, but fear that it is too costly to build without an Industrious leader (and, ideally, easy access to Marble) on Immortal. Then again... ah! So many GP points with Philosophical Peter:

ToA + TGL + NE = 9 GP + 6 GM + 24 GS + 2 GA = 41 GPPs

vs.

Parth. + TGL + NE = 28 GS + 10.5 GA = 38.5 GPPs

And variety is the spice of life (as far as Golden Ages are concerned).

---

How many turns are left to build the Worker, btw? Could you change the graphics to display this info?

Food rules all. You may waste a turn moving the Worker from the PH ---> GH, but if this lets you grow from size 3 to size 4 one turn sooner, you gain back the lost Worker turn right there (= 1 more tile worked). This is probably moot now, since you've opted for Animal Husbandry.

 

[Hwacha]

Declaring on Cyrus would be very interesting and I would like to see it (but I would never have the courage to do that)!

 

[ben-jammin]

I wouldn't gamble on cyrus not having horses.

 

[Manco Capac]

Well, you're the AI expert...

So I guess the two accompanying archers would not attack your scout while they're tasked to cover the settler? Would the AI settle a new city one tile away from an enemy unit that can't attack?
Does the AI pick one location to settle and stick to it, or will it pick another one if the first choice is blocked? If it does that, you probably can't block it for long - there are just too many possible locations available.

Finally, even if you're sure you can successfully block the AI here, it will be tough to make peace while all you have is a scout and a warrior or two. You can't even steal a worker for some war success. He'll build more military than otherwise, making it harder to eventually capture his cities. Bottom line, I don't think it's worth it even in the best of cases.

In fact, it is not the archers are tasked to cover the settler, but in fact follow the settler just like lemmings follow the lead. In stack language, a lead unit always exist and that lead unit decides for the rest of the stack.

Ever heard of stack bait trick in case of despair where the AI stack takes the bait and all the units follow the first attacker. Well, that's a consequence of stack scripting.

Settler+2 escorts follow the same reasoning but the "head unit" (called that way in the code) decides for its followers. Since the settler can't attack, then this cowardice property is somewhat transferred to its escorts, making escort archers completely useless unless the settler decides to flee (under danger which is only caused by attacking units).

The problem in my situation is my scout cannot attack. Being a non attacking unit, the settler won't flee. But if I occupy the best site (blue circle btw), the AI will simply find another site with the second best value. And it is probably not one adjacent tile to the blocked site as there is likely better sites in a range of 5 tiles around the capital.

You speak truth it's gonna be madness to start a war with a scout. I don't think it's valuable either. It's just sad he may settle on that hill, making it's conquer harder. I really wanted those phants. Nevertheless, that spices the game up. It is making it quite different from the last instalment.

Well...there is commerce. Cap can have six grassland cottages worked by helper cities that you're gonna have to settle anyway. Are you Stalin? GLighthouse would be a no-brainer. Food kind of sucks so the mids are probably a waste of hammers.

I wonder if you could pull off MC oracle, GLighthouse+Colossus coastal city spam. And if you could, if it would even be worth it without the financial trait. If horses pop up and Cyrus has better land than what you're looking at...

The GLH is definitely a wonder to look at. Indeed, if I were Stalin, early MC would be truly attractive.

I like your idea of close helper cities. It's just sad stupid Cyrus decided to steal the only commerce city I had.

I agree the GLH is by far the best way to play this, but with this start you don't have a chance in a hell to get the Oracle.

This start slightly encourages GLH indeed. Being commerce poor and spawning some seafoods. It's again said I'll have to build a lighthouse in the capital as my only gain is +2 from lakes. That means,, ingnoring commerce, for the 60 invested and 2/60 return, I need 30 turns of continuous lake working to get back my investment. Perhaps actually 20-25 thanks to desperate needed commerce.

Declaring on Cyrus would be very interesting and I would like to see it (but I would never have the courage to do that)!

My last installment was a showcase of AI choking. Starting choking with a scout is just too inefficient.

I wouldn't gamble on cyrus not having horses.

I agree. Let's just hope he won't settle on a PH.

Has Cyrus met anyone else yet?

My guess is that he'll settle on the current Scout spot, since this grabs the Spices as well as two Elephants and a Wheat. The AI seems to overly value resources in determining city spots, which is why they will settle right in your face when they've no hope of claiming a resource in one of your inner culture rings. And Darius is a slight warmonger, which in my experience leads to more hill settles. Or maybe it just feels that way...

I wouldn't declare war, but then I'm a wimp and know far less about trolling the AI in the early game than you. I'd ask two questions:

(1) Is that spot worth more to you than the loss of trade routes and tech brokering opportunities? If Darius is the only neighbor, his presence makes the GLH much much stronger before you find some islands. And trading for Alphabet + Monarchy will be worth, what, 800 ? That's not too shabby.

(2) Can you control a war with just a Scout? Probably, but unless Horses show up with AH, you'll need to tech Archery immediately (c.60 beakers?). And you may have to go to extreme lengths to prevent Darius ever hooking up Horses of his own.

If this answer is yes in both cases, go for it.

---

The Oracle is only worth an outside punt if you decide to build the GLH and if it still hasn't gone by time that you reach Masonry and have access to the Marble. Meditation is needed for Philosophy, Polytheism is needed for Literature and Music. So if you still can't quite make it, Priesthood is the only wasteful tech.

Like BIC, I love the ToA, but fear that it is too costly to build without an Industrious leader (and, ideally, easy access to Marble) on Immortal. Then again... ah! So many GP points with Philosophical Peter:

ToA + TGL + NE = 9 GP + 6 GM + 24 GS + 2 GA = 41 GPPs

vs.

Parth. + TGL + NE = 28 GS + 10.5 GA = 38.5 GPPs

And variety is the spice of life (as far as Golden Ages are concerned).

---

How many turns are left to build the Worker, btw? Could you change the graphics to display this info?

Food rules all. You may waste a turn moving the Worker from the PH ---> GH, but if this lets you grow from size 3 to size 4 one turn sooner, you gain back the lost Worker turn right there (= 1 more tile worked). This is probably moot now, since you've opted for Animal Husbandry.

Doshin, this is the kind of analysis I like.

Indeed, Cyrus hasn't met anyone. Which means he may be my sole trade partner. Waiting to have Alpha means I can get some juicy extorsions.

Now, looking Cyrus' personality, he is indeed an interesting individual.

He may start wonders for me. He only needs +9 modifier to get to FRIENDLY.
He doesn't plot at PLEASED. A quick wardec for stealing several workers will lead to CAUTIOUS thanks to his +1 base towards human player.
He OB even on ANNOYED.
So basically, he is a good individual.

Sharing borders (+2), trading resources (+2), Sustained peace (+1), base (+1), fair trades (+4) leads to FRIENDLY.

If you're curious how blue circles somewhat work (which equates how AI values found location), look there. It's interesting and simple to understand.

For 1), you got that point.
For 2) Indeed, my gains to start a war with a scout are pretty thin.

Late shot at oracle happened in the last instalment and it is indeed always worth trying for it around 1400 BC-900 BC if you got you empire set up. Especially when getting PH in 1-2 turns, the loss is less damageable.

I see two people liking ToA. This is getting an interesting avenue. I've got marble.
I wonder, if my capital got the ToA, do I get better trade missions with another cities given trade missions are dependent of strongest trade routes between capital and the target city for a trade. If so, that makes stronger if I do it with some oversea AI given my capital is coastal.
And indeed, really strong under philosophical.

Food rules all. You may waste a turn moving the Worker from the PH ---> GH, but if this lets you grow from size 3 to size 4 one turn sooner, you gain back the lost Worker turn right there (= 1 more tile worked). This is probably moot now, since you've opted for Animal Husbandry.

This! I really like this kind of analysis.

 

[ben-jammin]

I feel like there's a low chance of getting both the ToA and GLighthouse, but if you chop out the lighthouse quickly and have marble hooked up you'd take a shot at the ToA anyway. Marble fail-building can make up for a lack of commerce tiles for a while, anyway.

 

[Manco Capac]

Looks like the nice city location is claimed by Cyrus after all!

Second Turnset - All for Cyrus; nothing for Peter​

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[kossin]

Are you going to re-settle that fp-Ivory-wheat city?

 

[GKey]

Definitely check Detailed City Info in options graphics, so we see turns in screenies.

Never mind, missed last update, check Detailed City Info in options graphics, Tachy! Please!

 

[lymond]

Excellent reporting, Tachy!

Cyrus is as good as dead...

 

[Mitchum]

Interesting so far, Tachy! I like the pictures. Thanks for doing it even though it adds time to your game.

What did you end up doing with your worker? Did you just move him to the cows and wait a turn for AH? I'm not sure what you could have done differently other than working the lake rather than the pigs, which would have made little sense as that would have delayed growth to 2.

 

[ben-jammin]

Considering that it's just you and him and you can easily pillage any metal, do you think you can do a slow sort of HA stomp and still get the GLH built?

Edit: What I mean is still start the rush as close to 1000BC as possible, but once you've got the upper hand chop out the GLH somewhere instead of HAs?