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Stability

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by Veshta, May 1, 2011.

  1. Veshta

    Veshta Chieftain

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    Does anyone have the numbers involved as I am confounded by this thing.

    When two civics are noted as being stable with one another how much does that actually mean (+3/4, higher?)?
    How about when unstable with each other?

    What is the penalty for Merchant Republic when going over 5 cities?
    Regularly see Germany/France and even Norse running it with up to ten cities while being solid.

    What is the penalty for Bureaucracy when exceeding 6 cities?
    Regularly see just about anyone (even Byzantium, that bloated monstrosity!) run it with ten or more cities but cannot do so myself without teetering on collapse.

    How on earth can stability change 3-4 points with no significant changes to cities/civics, as in out of nowhere? See it a lot with Norse whose stability fluctuates wildly at times.

    PS: Is it possible to add +1 stability to the Pagan Shrine? Would really help Norse as they generally don't get religion until fairly late so can theoretically hold off on monasticism for a bit and the early expansion hurts like a mofo ;)
     
  2. hoplitejoe

    hoplitejoe Top fun-poster

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    durp.
     
  3. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    look into RFCEurope\Assets\Python\Stability.py if you are interested in the exact numbers. You can open it with any texteditor.

    the earlier ones have +-1/2, the later ones +-3/4/5

    The AI gets almost no penalties for running those civics. Their penalty is capped at -1/2. For Humans its around -4 or -5 i think. So it makes no difference above 10 cities.

    I've seen this with the norse too. I think its caused by conquering/razing cities. This effects economy and city ratings in the following 4 or 5 turns alot.
     
  4. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    Economy is the thing that can fluctuate without "apparent" reason. I will try to keep an eye on the Norse.
     
  5. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    still he raises a good point. Is there a way to see all the algorithms and such for stability without delving deep into the code?
     
  6. Veshta

    Veshta Chieftain

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    Figured that might be it, guessing it has to do with trade routes, they come and go repeatedly as pirates and independent ships travel the seas .. as it does seem to be more pronounced when markets are built.

    Would be enough (for me at least) to have a reference page like that made for RFC. Hard numbers would be awesome but not necessary and one could say they detract from the experience of balancing everything, so ... :)

    Is it true that provincial stability can improve over time? Read it a few times in various threads but haven't seen it myself.
     
  7. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    Stability changes a lot, such a page would have a rather short half-life. Eventually we will add a proper guide.
     
  8. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    I know that a complete stability guide makes no sense yet, but i think that some kind of document is necessary. It could be used as a reference for discussing further changes or to track down inconsistencies. It won't help new players but for those who are a little bit into RFCEurope and want help to improve the mod it could be usefull.

    If you don't want to do it i can do it. I'm familiar with the python codes and i think i can write down a list of most of the stability effects in Beta 9.
     
  9. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    There was a guide somewhere. Look at the Beta 7 or Beta 8 threads. Another problem with temporary guides is that they get lost, buried in the threads.

    I am not stopping you in any way, a guide would be useful, it is just that people will have hard time finding it. I hope that soon we will have enough finalized things to start working on real guides.
     
  10. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    Ok, here is the first try of a list of the current stability modifiers.
    I think that the list is complete except for the economy rating. For the AI the values differ at some points. They are not listed here.
    I tried to stick to terms that are used ingame and not the ones used internally whereever possible. I hope that this document is comprehensible and that
    it gives an insight into how stability is calculated.


    Any comments are appreciated.

    List of stability modifiers
    last update February 25. 2013, RFCE 1.0, svn revision 1056

    The F2 Screen
    On the F2-screen you can see the four main stability categories: cities, civics, economy, expansion and a special fifth category called swing.
    The main categories have two values: the one on the left side is the sum of all permanent modifieres and the one on the right side is a value that is calculated every turn.
    The swing category has only one value and represents effects that last only a few turns. Most of the time this value should be zero.

    All values are sumed up and give the total stability or simply the stability (The value that can be seen on the main screen). This is the only value that matters in the end.

    The two ways how stability is calculated
    There are two ways in which stability is calculated: event based and state based. You can say the state based modifiers look at what you have (eg. total number of cities) and the event based look on how you got there (eg. if you found a city yourself or if you conquer one).

    The state based modifiers have to be updated once in a while. This is usually done every turn or every three turns or when it is obvious that the state has changed (eg. founding a city will change the total number of cities and therefore triggers a recalculation). Because they only look at the current state they can be recalculated from scratch every time. Previous values don't have to be remembered. That means if an error occures, this error can not accumulate over several calculations and the total effect of one modifier can easiliy be limited.
    The effects of state-based modfiers are hard to track because all effects are calculated at once.

    The event based modifiers on the other hand can not be calculated from the scratch every time and therefore have to be remembered. This is done by storing a single number for each category. It holds the sum of all modifiers that have been triggerd so far. That means those modifiers are permanent and cumulative. And that means also that errors can accumulate. And because only a single number is stored it is impossible to say how often a certain event has occured and therefore it is impossible to limit the total effect of a single modifier.
    The effect of event-based modifiers can easily be seen. Just found, conquer or raze a city and look on the F2-screen how the corresponding value has changed. Sometimes more then one event is triggerd at once (eg. razing a city triggers also conquering a city)

    The swing category has only event based modifiers but in addition this value gets halfed every turn, so that it rapidly converges to zero.


    List of event based modifiers / permanent stability:

    Cities
    • entering a war -1
    • building a courthouse +1

    Civics
    • building a nightwatch +1
    • beeing in anarchy max(-2, -numCities/4) (this applies for each turn in anarchy)

    Expension
    • building a castle +1
    • founding a city
      - in a solid province +1
      - in a unstable or OK province -2 (0 for Portugal and Norse)
      - while numCities < 5 +1
    • conquering a city in a solid province +1
    • conquering a city while running Militarism +1
    • razing a city -2 (-1 for Norse)
    • loosing a city in a solid province -2
    • loosing the capitol city -5 (-15 for Byzantium)
    • moving the palace -3
    • building a colony while running colonialism +1

    Economy
    • building a manor house +1
    • founding a corporation -2
    • researching certain techs -1
      (Feudalism, Guilds, Gunpowder, ProfessionalArmy, Nationalism, CivilService, Economics, Machinery, Aristocracy)

    Swing
    • beeing in anarchy -8
    • entering a war -3
    • own improvement destroyed -2
    • moving palace -5
    • conquering a city in a solid province +3
    • loosing a city in a solid province -5
    • loosing a city in another province -2
    • loosing the capitol city -10
    (note: those values are high, but their effect gets halfed every turn)


    List of state based modifiers / Base stability

    Cities
    • for an average city happiness of at least
      3 +1
      5 +2
      7 +3
      etc.
    • for a prosecution countdown of at least
      1 -2
      11 -4
      21 -6
      etc.
    • add for each city that
      - is healty +1
      - is unhappy (angry population) -2
      - has at least one foreign religion -2 (-1 if running paganism, 0 for Poland or if running free religion)
      - has unhappy population because of hurrying -1
      - has unhappy population because of no military -1
      - has unhappy population because of war weariness -1
      - has unhappy population because of religion -1
      - has less than 40% own culture -1 (0 for Hungary and France)
    the sum of war weariness and no military penalties for all cities together will never exceed -2
    the sum of all values so far is bound between -6 and 8
    • add the stability bonus for orthodox civs (+0.08 per faithpoint)
    • add +8 while in a golden age

    Civics
    The following civic combos give bonuses/penalties
    • Feudal Monarchy with
      - Wonder Stephansdom +2
      - FeudalLaw +1
    • Divine Monarchy with
      - Paganism -4
      - StateReligion +2
      - Theocracy +3
      - OrganizedReligion +2
      - FreeReligion -5
      - ReligiousLaw +2
      - Wonder Stephansdom +2
    • Limited Monarchy with
      - Wonder Stephansdom +2
      - CommonLaw +3
      - FreePeasantry +2
      - FreeLabor +2
    • Merchant Republic with
      - FeudalLaw -4
      - TradeEconomy +3
      - CommonLaw +3
      - FreePeasantry +2
      - FreeLabor +2
      - Number of cities max( -3, 4 - NumCities )
    • Feudal Law with
      - Serfdom +1
      - Manorialism +1
      - FreePeasantry -4
    • Bureaucracy with
      - Number of cities max( -4, 5 - NumCities )
    • Religious Law with
      - Paganism -5
      - Theocracy +3
      - FreeReligion -5
    • Common Law with
      - FreeLabor +3
      - Theocracy -4
    • Serfdom with
      - Manorialism +2
    • Apprenticeship with
      - Guilds +3

    Expansion
    • for each own city in
      - an unstable province -3
      - a OK province -1
    • with Imperialism +1 for each city in a non solid province (up to a maximum of +6)
      (as France +2 per city with a maximum of +12)
    • for each foreign city in
      - a core province -3
      - a normal province -1
      (note that core and normal provinces are in game both labeld solid)
      (these penalties do not apply if the civ is running Militarism or hasn't owned a city in that province at least once)
    • for each vassal +1 (+3 with Vassalage)
    • for beeing a vassal of someone else +8
    • for total number of cities beeing at least
      7 -1
      9 -2
      11 -3
      12 -4
      15 -5
      for each city beyond 16 add -1
      for each city beyond 31 add -2
      (the exact formula is -(numCities*numCities)/40 )
      (Turkey and Moscow get five cities for free, that means -1 at 12 cities, -2 at 14 cities, etc.)

    Economy

    The total value is bound between -7 and 7
     
  11. 3Miro

    3Miro Chieftain

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    Awesome guide. I will eventually put something like this in the reference folder (after we get a few more tweaks).

    Some notes:

    - You should not get instability for foreign cities in OK provinces. Note that the difference between Core and Normal are hidden from the player.

    - The instability from number of cities increases quadratically. The largest Empires of the Byzantium, Moscow and Ottomans should get a few "free" cities.

    (note that I don't have the code with me, so I may be off)

    Economy:
    - For each city, consider the ratio of food + production per citizen. You have to work improved tiles and you get a bonus for working on resources. Once the cities increase in size, you have to build Guilds and Forges to get extra +xx% production bonus.

    - There was also some bonus for foreign trade routes. I don't remember off hand.

    - There are penalties for making too many military units and/or wonders (those hurt your economy).
     
  12. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    Thanks for the flowers :) It took me some time.

    You are right. I didn't want to confuse the players with core, normal, potential, etc provinces. Somehow i got mixed up myself. Maybe i should include a more detailed look on provinces in the future.

    I include your proposals.
     
  13. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    AWESOME Guide, answered many questions.

    Unfortunately I still have a lot of questions about how stability works.

    Questions:
    1. Is the city razing penalty permanent? (cus it sure seemed like it in my game - which sucks). Also do things like founding a city bonuses, moving capital, etc are those permanent? (The guide is unclear - it says left and right when things are only on the right)

    2. Why do the techs and founding corporations decrease stability, is this just to offset the larger number of courthouses, manor houses, etc later in the game?

    3. Why are manor houses obsoleted so early? Move back to later? (later civs suffer a lot from this)

    4. Why is orthodox bonus so low? It seems to do very little to nothing (most AI will never get more than 1 or 2 points)

    5. Is there a limit to civic pairing bonuses/penalties?
     
  14. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    4. Yeah, it is really low, 29 faith as Muscovites and I get +2 stability (1:14) & -14% (1:2) civic upkeep. Islam gets the power of the Mohammedan hordes (1:2) and a huge diplo bonus (1:10) that is double Catholicism (1:20), I forgot exactly the bonuses of Protestantism, but I finished the tech tree as Germany in 1650 in Beta 9 and got every project.
     
  15. yogiebere

    yogiebere Civilization City Planner

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    I think orthodoxy should get 1 stability for every 10 points to help Bulgaria, Kiev, and Moscovy. My only concern is that it will help Byzantium, which seems to be that superpower we were so concerned with before about 1 out of every 3 games. If maybe we could give Byzantium another tiny nerf, this could be good.
     
  16. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    Yes, all the modifiers you mention are permanent. In general all, modifiers in the event-based list are permanent. Left and right refered to the position on the F2-screen. I try to clarify that paragraph.

    Good questions. I can only say how it works now, not why it works that way.

    There is a limit in the way that you can only pair four civics at the same time.
    When you switch civics, the bonuses for the old combination are lost. Thats why those effects are listed under the state-based list.
     
  17. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    As much as it pains me to say... boost Ottomans.
     
  18. Caliom

    Caliom Chieftain

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    I updated the guide.
    I tried to clarifiy the two ways how stability is calculated and removed the term "base stability" completely because i think it is missleading.
     
  19. Veshta

    Veshta Chieftain

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    I hereby request that the in-game text saying "turn your great person into a .." be changed to "Turn your great person into Caliom ..", because he is clearly a saint in his own right :D

    Some modifiers there I didn't know about that may change the order I do do some things so yay. If nothing else, its now in print as it were so finalizing it when the time comes will be easier.
     
  20. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    "own improvement got destroyed -2"

    So, massive pillaging is maybe the best strategy for civil war?
     

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