Standard 20k Demigod

[Pacioli]

I thought I should be proactive and raised lux to 50% at the end of 2590 since I knew we would have to in the next turn. Your pre-turn drop of luxes to 40% confirms that my action was unnecessary. I appreciate you letting me know that you’re not concerned about us tech advantage Japan and Zulu have on us.

1-2350 Drop science to 50% and still get Writing in 2.

2-2310 Assigned new citizen at 002 to fish. Drop science to 40%, Writing in 1.

3-2270 We learn Writing. Set research to Philosophy and raise science to 60%.

4-2190 My bad. We need Code of Laws before Philosophy. Set research to CL. Raise lux to 50% as 001 needs to have 4 happy and 4 unhappy citizens. 002 builds worker. Moved this worker to wheat NW of 002 (this is the direction I would put 003). Set 002 to build warrior. Other workers road.

5-2150 Worker roads. Reassign 001 citizen from mountains to grassland.

We should start a building a settler for 003 after 002 builds the warrior, correct?

 

[Spoonwood]

I usually will go with just warriors, workers, and maybe a curragh until I have the capital up to size 12 via worker add ins in this sort of game, or I know I'll get it there via add-ins in a few turns. Sometimes that would mean like 3 warriors, 2 in the capital, one to explore the home island, and a second curragh plus a bunch of workers before the settler. Sometimes no 2nd curragh comes as necessary for getting all the contacts, or enough where you know you can get all the techs you want via trading for as cheaply as you want. We haven't found out where the ivory lays yet, so we need more exploration.

That said, we still might want to put the settler out a little earlier in this particular game, since the capital has such quick growth on its own basically needing few, if any, add-ins to get to size 12 fast, and our second city has no food bonus. I think we want to go 2nd warrior-worker-curragh-settler, though maybe another worker after the curragh first. The settler should go on the lake in such a way that it can use the cow around there immediately.

We need to figure out which of the 12 tiles we want the capital to use at size 12, develop all of those squares, mine the irrigated squares, and get the capital to size 12.

 

[Spoonwood]

Pre-turn Notice a worker roading a wheat near 002 that it can't use until we have cultural borders out that way. 1. We have a 20k game, so we want to develop the 20k site first. The mine for the warrior here just helped develop our research, but we can also use that spot for the capital eventually also. 2. We can't use the road on the wheat for a while for commerce, so why do it even in a non-20k game? There does exist a reason actually... settlers can travel to new spots faster that way. But, in *this* game settling the spot with the cow first makes more sense than the lower production wheat spot. Oh well, you live and you learn. I keep the worker there though, so not to waste turns in movement.

I notice that the other two workers will finish roading in a turn by clicking on them, and then saying "No. Carry on." Lower luxes to 40%, and take citizen off of mined BG to coast. That balances out happiness, so move citizen back to mined BG, and even though it looks like the capital would revolt, it won't, since the roads will finish. CoL reads 34 turns instead of 38, but will actually become 31 upon completion of the roads. Notice only 6 food in the box instead of 8, so I assume the mountain got used last turn. Possibly the better play if it got the Colossus in a turn earlier, I don't know.

1-2150 BC One worker to river spot near 002 which 001 can also use. The other goes to the mountain and reveals another grassland cow. That settles the spot of 003 in my mind. It should go on the lake in such a way that it *immediately* has access to both of those grassland cows. Check in on the Japanese the Zulu. Offering Alphabet to the Zulu for Pottery, the Wheel, and Warrior Code, he says "we're getting close to a deal here." Offering Alphabet to the Japanese for Pottery and Warrior Code he says "I doubt they will accept this proposal." So, Japan almost has Alphabet. This seems early, but oh well. Trade Alphabet for Pottery, CB and 4 gold from Japan, as that's the most I could get. No one has Mysticism yet, and of course the Zulu will offer less for Alphabet now, but none of these other techs matter much right now (Iron Working MIGHT get us an extra shield, and The Wheel MIGHT get us an extra commerce, but no big deal), so I don't trade them Alphabet... if this trade would have happened a few turns later I probably would have picked up more.

2-2110 The Zulu now have Alphabet, oh well. Two workers mine, and the one from the wheat moves along near 001. Notice The Colossus needed only 4 extra shields last turn to complete a turn earlier.

3-2070 Colossus finishes. Both Japan and Zulu swap to the Pyramids in Kyoto and Zimbabwe. Science up 70%, CoL reading 17 turns. Debate on a temple vs. the Pyramids as a possible pre-build for the Oracle or actually hand-building the Pyramids, as building the temple first might mean we could miss them both. Decide on a temple, as it gives us culture earlier, more contentedness, and might make the revolution easier. We can't get up to 15 shields, so maximize food and let it come in 5 turns. Mine with third worker.

4-2030 002 warrior-worker. Start exploring another island, which has a bunch of jungle... it doesn't look like anyone has gone there, but it could lead to another island. No adjustment of luxury slider.

5-1990 001 hits size 9, temple due in 3 turns.

The worker which will finish mining on your first turn should road, then head to the 9 spot to develop it (or mine a cow... which might actually work out better). The worker which comes out should mine one of those cows. The worker along the river which will finish mining in 2 turns, should road, and then either mine another cow/help develop the mountain, or mine the other cow. Once we have all these spots mined, except for maybe the mountain which if we have two workers on, we can wait a turn or two, add in workers to 001 to take it size 12 and put in on the Pyramids for a while. 001 will get the mountain and the mined spot 002 uses right now once it hits size 12. We'll need to mine the other river spot near 002 to help it's production after this, and it needs to go worker (on right now)-curragh-settler. DO NOT trade Writing until we have a few turns already started on Philosophy, and only trade it if Mysticism becomes available. We can wait to trade it for the Oracle until we have 7 lines of the Pyramids box filled.

 

[Spoonwood]

You might want to change the temple build to the Pyramids as a pre-build on the Oracle. Your call here.

 

[Pacioli]

I like the 5 turns/set. You can make adjustments and get me headed in the right direction before I stray too far. My management skills are improving but still need work. When 001 grew in 2190, the new citizen was assigned to the mountain automatically. I realized this in the next turn. Another lesson learned.

The detail of your turn-logs is appreciated!

1-1950 Changed 001 to Pyramids as a pre-build on the Oracle. We can quickly build a temple later at our current production rate (less than 5 turns). Worker roads.

2-1910 002 grows, assigned new citizen to fish. Worker roads.

3-1870 Moved worker to 001’s 9 spot. Noticed Japan has an extra gem, not sure if they had it before.

4-1830 002 builds worker. Set 002 to build curragh. Moved new worker to cow at 001’s 4 spot and mine. Moved worker to other cow. Worker at 001’s 9 spot mines.

5-1790 001 grows. Assigning new citizen to mountain would give us Pyramids in 21 vs. 22. Assigning new citizen to grassland would give us growth in 5. Choose to go with grassland. We want 001 at size 12 asap. 001 has 5 happy and 5 unhappy citizens. Less than 2 ½ lines filled on Pyramids. Japan learns Mysticism.

 

[Spoonwood]

You can only learning by making weaker plays. Not all "mistakes" really come as necessarily "wrong", but rather ill-timed. Your roading of the wheat probably provides a good example. It's not so much a bad play, as an ill-timed one.

Pre-turn Consider swapping the unmined river to the mountain for more shields, since we can add in the last 2 workers to get to size 12. Notice Code of Laws would read 9 turns instead of 8, and decide against it.

1-1750 BC Curragh sails through isthmus (if that's the correct term). Check swapping river to mountain, it still would increase CoL time, so I don't do it.

2-1725 BC Japan and Zulu both have Writing and Mysitcism now. Zulu have 29 gold and Japan 0, meaning the Zulu researched Writing (they may have done this later if we hadn't traded away Masonry quite so fast, as they seem to go for Masonry in my experience before Alphabet). Looks like we'll have to give up Code of Laws to get Mysticism.

3-1700 BC Two workers finish mining. One roads, and the other moves to the mountain to help road it.

4-1675 BC Another cow spot gets mined. I could add it in, but I move it to mine 002 new's spot, otherwise it'll have 1 shield per turn for too long after the switch, or have to use the mountain. Two workers road the mountain.

5-1650 BC Japanese start Oracle. Add worker into 001. Swap 001 from mountain to previous 002 mined grassland. 002 uses the fish. The worker there mines. 001 will grow in 1 turn to size 12, and at the end of 1625 BC, the road on the mountain will finish. Will we need to raise the luxury slider? I doubt it, but I'd check with the lake. 4 and half lines on the Pyramids.

I don't know precisely if 002 can get to 3 shields without any going corrupt in Despotism at its spacing and at this level and this map size (doubt it would work on Sid standard, possibly on Deity though.. should work on any Huge map though). It might prove worth it for both workers to move into the other common grassland of 002 and 001, mine and road that ASAP, so 002 can get 3 shields per turn and a little more commerce soon enough. Thank goodness for industrious workers! I'd go for it, unless a lurker has compelling evidence that won't work here. After that, our workers can maybe mine a hill near 002, and/or road spots to new cities/possible even mine or irrigate spots ahead of time.

I think we'll get the slingshot, but admittedly, it seems close at this point. The AIs usually will go for Map Making before anything else after Writing, but admittedly not always. Remember to trade Code of Laws for Mysticism BEFORE we have 7 and a half lines filled. In fact, at 20 shields/turn (which we technically now have with the mountain getting used upon growth), the Pyramids box will fill at exactly half a line a turn. So, trade Code of Laws for Mysticism BEFORE the 7th line has gotten half filled. Try to pick up as much tech as you can when you do this (if it's you). Trick here lies in trying to pick up both Mysticism, Warrior Code, and The Wheel in the first deal. Do you see how that could help?

If we get a 3rd contact before the curragh finishes we might want to swap 002 to a settler.

 

[Bucephalus]

1-1750 BC Curragh sails through isthmus (if that's the correct term).

An isthmus is a narrow strip of land with water on each side, connecting two larger landmasses; Panama (before the canal) is a good example, so no, it's not the correct term.

I think 'straits' is the word you were looking for.

 

[templar_x]

hi Buce!

long time no see. good to have you around here still.

since you are obviously attracted (owing to your nick) by topics related to the Greek language, what do you think about our SOTU project, playing it with Greece?

cheers
templar_x

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks Bucephalus and good to see you around! I have gotten around to trying to take down your Deity Large SS date.

 

[Bucephalus]

hi Buce!

long time no see. good to have you around here still.

since you are obviously attracted (owing to your nick) by topics related to the Greek language, what do you think about our SOTU project, playing it with Greece?

cheers
templar_x

Hi, Templar.

Actually, I have no affinity to the Greek language or culture whatsoever; my user name comes from an interest in the great military leaders, Bucephalus being Alexander's warhorse.

I'm taking an extended break from Civ3; I've been putting all my playing time into Civ4 for the last six months or so, trying to make myself like it. It's odd, it's a far superior game in almost every aspect, but I just can't warm to it.

I suspect I'll be back playing 3 before very long, though I will have to buy a new disc - I moved house recently and cannot find the old one. I'll pm you when I do.

Thanks Bucephalus and good to see you around! I have gotten around to trying to take down your Deity Large SS date.

Hi, Spoonwood.

It shouldn't pose too many difficulties for a man of your talents; of course, you do realise that I wouldn't take that lying down, don't you?

 

[templar_x]

well, ... i do know why you have chosen that name, as *you have told me*

i´ll add an irony smiley next time. it was just so inviting, since i have not seen you post for ages, and when you did now it was about a greek term, isthmus.

templar_x

 

[Bucephalus]

well, ... i do know why you have chosen that name, as *you have told me*

i´ll add an irony smiley next time. it was just so inviting, since i have not seen you post for ages, and when you did now it was about a greek term, isthmus.

templar_x

Doh! Sorry mate, I've got less memory than a Sinclair ZX.

 

[Pacioli]

You ask if I see how picking up Mysticism, Warrior Code, and the Wheel in the first trade of Code of Laws would help us. I’m really not sure that this is the answer you’re looking for but...I opened CivAssist2 to see the estimated beaker cost of the various techs involved. Code of Laws (342) is roughly equal to the total (300) of Mysticism (109) + Warrior Code (82) + the Wheel (109). After the first trade we should be able to get gpt deal with the second civ if no other techs are available at that time. Both the Wheel and Warrior Code are required for Horseback Riding which would be helpful for exploring our land mass. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

1-1625 001 grows to size 12, assigned new citizen to the mountain. 001 looks like it will riot next turn but the workers on the mountain will finish roading next turn so there is no need to raise the luxury slider.

2-1600 002 grows to size 2, assigned new citizen to grassland. Two workers finish roading and are moved to grassland west of 001. Moved science slider to 60% and we still get CoL in 1.

3-1575 We learn CoL. Set research to Philosophy and move science slider back to 70%. 002 builds a curragh, set build order to settler. Two workers will mine grassland west of 001. The Zulu are building the Oracle.

4-1550 One worker finishes mining and will now road.

5-1525 Two workers finish mining and both will now road. Reassign 002 citizen from fish to newly improved grassland.

Please note that the Pyramids box has approximately 6¾ lines full. The Japanese and the Zulu have not learned any new techs beyond Mysticism, Warrior Code, the Wheel, and Iron Working. To be honest, I do not have much experience with getting the most out of the Republic slingshot. It may be best if you play the next 10 turns. The choice is up to you.

 

[Spoonwood]

I just meant The Wheel and Warrior Code as required for Horseback Riding, so if we can pick them up along with Mysticism, we might pick up Horseback Riding with our second contact. Unless we have jungle, marsh, or mountains all around, a chariot could explore the island faster. But, really both of them cost too much in my opinion. We probably don't need much more exploration of our island, as we can see spots for the 3rd, and 4th city by the food bonuses already. Then again, ivory might lay on the other side of it.

 

[Spoonwood]

I recently did the pre-build thing with the Pyramids on the Oracle in another game (which I abandonded) and either I miscounted or the box worked kind of differently than I expected and I overbuilt the Oracle. I expect we still have two turns left on the Oracle, but I don't want to overbuild it. So,

Pre-turn ring up the Zulu and trade them Code of Laws for The Wheel, Warrior Code, Iron Working, Mysticism, and 23 gold. The Zulu have extra horses. Ring up the Japanese and trade them Code of Laws for Horseback Riding and 8 gold. Swap 001 to the Oracle and it reads 2 turns. I must have mis-read the lines in the other game I guess.

1-1500 Workers scatter about to three different spots to road. Stacking them to build regular roads would have wasted turns. Notice iron up on island near original curragh. I also notice sets of 2 adjacent sea squares off the eastern part of that island. That sometimes indicates another island out past those sea squares, sometimes not though. Swap tile in 001 to the lake for slightly more food as once I click end of turn The Oracle finishes.

2-1475 Set build to the little temple. Due in 3 turns at 20 shields. Spot another cow on our home island with the curragh.

3-1450 See horses on one of the northern islands. Not much else.

4-1425 Two workers mine a cow. Another one moves to another cow next to it, and we spot a grassland cow.

5-1400 Little temple in. Set 001 to a courthouse as a pre-build on the Mausoleum of Mausollos. I guess you want to see how I handle a revolution. It can vary from game-to-game depending on how much food I have around and how long it lasts. But, I guess I may as well do it here so you have an idea of SOME possibilities of what you might do with one. Although, since Philosophy reads 2 right now, I don't know quite yet if it'll happen here.

6-1375 No one known has Philosophy. No one else ever gets to Alphabet and Writing unless they know us with these opponents and this sort of map (save on Sid), so we now have the slingshot. The northern curragh swung back around that island to check out that sea spot. It saw a little more this turn, but nothing much. One worker goes to spot where new city will lie to try to road it before the settler gets there to pick up the founding of the city. We do have a decent bit of brown our island, so we could have ivory. Hit F6 and make sure 1-2 goes Philosophy-Republic just to make sure we take Republic as our free tech. Philosophy learned. Republic learned.

Use "what's the big picture" to go to the F1 screen. Tell domestic advisor that we want a revolution. Click on the white box a few times until it tells us we have 4 turns of anarchy... interesting! For this game at least. Click on 001 from the F1 screen. We have a full 40 food in the box, so we can lose 39 food and not starve (maybe it's 40, but I won't risk it). Use only 4 food bonus squares in 001, for 2 and one half lines of food in red. Make all other citizens scientists except for one, who stays an entertainer THIS turn, giving us one happy, two content, one happy, and 7 scientists and 1 entertainer. We can't get commerce this turn anyways, so no reason to have it revolt this turn. Next turn it will for a few extra beakers. Cycle to 002 and take one citizen off the tiles as a scientist, otherwise it would have revolted. It won't lose any food also. Domestic advisor asks for an anarchy to become a Republic. I say "No. We are happy with Anarchy."

7-1350 Set research to Literature (from Map Making which it defaulted to, it read 18 turns), and so no. It reads 18 turns. The white box in the F1 screen says 3 turns left on anarchy. I click on 001 and change the entertainer to a scientist and let the city revolt. Literature says 13 turns. NEXT TURN I'll make it so it doesn't revolt. On-off, until the domestic advisor says 1 turn left, then I'll make it so the citizens become happy... not sure if you can get production on turn 1 in Republic if it revolts, though I could speak incorrectly. Two workers road, one mines.

8-1325 Notice a sea spot up near Zimbabwe and Intombe which at least merits a little more exploration now methinks as I don't see anywhere else to go really. Click on 001. Notice it didn't lose any food last turn. Oh... of course, a city can't lose food when it riots! A size 12 city needs 24 food, and we still have 30 food to play with. 2 turns left on the anarchy. With 9 scientists and three citizens on the food tiles, we don't need any entertainers. So, 8 food this turn for 001, for a loss of 16 food in the box, with 10 scientists. Then 11 food for a loss of 13 food in the box, for 29 food lost, leaving one extra food, using 9 scientists. Literature reads 10 turns this turn. The Zulu have Map Making.

9-1300 Zulu start Great Lighthouse. Order restored in 001. Put one citizen back on a cow in 001. Literature reads 10 turns still.

10-1275 Apologize to Japan for trespassing. Become Republic. Swap courthouse to Museum of Mausollos, it reads 9 turns, at 21 shields per turn from 001. Science to 80%, running a deficit of -7 gpt, Literature reading 6 turns. Change mind about exploring sea area near Zulu as I see we haven't explored the other side of Japan. Send out one warrior from 001 to push back the back and see if we have ivory somewhere in the brown to the north. I would NOT trade Philosophy until we have 1 turn left on the Museum of Mausollos, and possibly not even then.

 

[Spoonwood]

Some more thoughts on the revolution. Does anyone know if commerce or food calculation comes first? Can you use specialists when a city starves? If so, then if a city must starve (or riot two consecutive turns, which causes problems), then you might just turn literally ALL citizens to scientists (or tax collectors) during the turn in which the city will starve in the anarchy period.

 

[Bucephalus]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to what you're asking, Spoons, and maybe you know this anyway, but there is an exploitative tactic associated with this; if you capture a city and it goes into disorder after resistance, with one unhappy face you can turn everyone else into specialists, and keep it that way ad infinitum.
With a large population, you can have a commercially productive city that would otherwise be uselessly corrupt.

It's possible I'm missing some vital detail - I'm a bit out of practice with Civ3 - but that's the gist of it.

 

[Bartleby]

lurker's comment: I believe taxmen and scientists work in starving cities, while CE's and cops do not.

 

[Spoonwood]

Thanks guys!

 

[Pacioli]

Thanks Spoonwood for playing the last 10. Yes, I did want to see how you handled a revolution. I’ve used specialists during a revolution but not to the degree you did. Another lesson learned.

1-1250 002 grows. New citizen automatically assigned to improved grassland. No change necessary. Move workers to plain cow and bonus grassland near future home of 003. See another cow and another lake. Warrior explores our homeland. See another island southeast of Kyoto. Backtrack with northern most curragh to move in the direction of unexplored coastline.

2-1255 Zulu build the Pyramids. Two workers road. Warrior continues exploring. Curraghs continue exploring.

3-1200 Japan builds the Great Lighthouse. 002 builds a settler. Set 002 to build a warrior in 10 via fish. Move worker to forest in preparation for a chop for 003. 40g and -9gpt. Literature in 3. Moving science slider to 70% stills gives us Literature in 3. -3gpt now.

4-1175 Build 003. Citizen auto assigned to one of the improved grassland cows as expected. Set 003 to build granary. Let’s start cranking out settlers. Move 2 workers to forest for our 003 chop. One worker starts the chop. Science slider to 60% for Lit in 2.

5-1150 One worker helps complete the chop. Granary in 16. Other worker roads. MoM in 4. Science slider to 50% for Lit in 1. Both the Zulu and the Japanese completed wonders recently. We should be safe to sell Philo in a few turns. Currently Japan has Map Making and 14g. The Zulu have Map Making and 58g.