Standard deity playthrough (2)

[Lain]

@Pedro78

Spoiler :

Yes, I got both to friendly in the BCs. Tech trades with Mehmed were great, but I didn't get anything from Hammurabi since he was far ahead most of the time. With ressource gifts and a city gift you could probably get Augustus to friendly eventually. But it's not a gamebreaking thing. Also note that you might be able to trade for Alpha/Monarchy anyway, AI don't have to be friendly for those techs (Alpha 100%, pretty sure about Monarchy aswell?). It's a nice bonus to get trades in, but it's hard to rely on that. Astro can be reached without any help.

Sure, bulbing Philo could work out nicely. But I think you need Code of Laws, Alpha and Maths for that. I would delay getting Meditation as long as possible in that case, because Philo without the religion won't do much good. Could try going in that direction since Code of Laws is very essential to get in any case. You might need 3 GS from 3 cities and that won't happen if you have to build libraries first and run only 2 GS. I would grow that fish+corn place to size 10 and run 4-5 scientists in caste system. That way, Pacifism won't be needed. CoL first and then evaluate your options. Monarchy is important aswell. Would be great if you could grab that Corn/Gold before Augustus.
I would definitely skip the Aesthetics route in your game, yes.

Yes, uploading the 3rd game now. It is isolation on a mediocre landmass, without marble or religion or trading partners, but still with a decent Astro time (despite getting trolled by a Great Engineer). Pyramids helped a lot in this case, but the GS were generated normally.

Was a bit shocking to see Toku like that, yes. Meeting him as early as I did enabled to reduce the difficulty from 9/10 to about 1/10 though. How? I bribed Toku off Pacal as soon as possible and then declared on Toku myself. That way he was "busy" and never reached me. Later I made peace and picked off Pacal + Ragnar myself. From there it was won.

 

[Lain]

Might play a shadow game in the classical sense here. Meaning that I will always play just as far as you did, never getting ahead of you. There wouldn't be much benefit to anyone if I uploaded a 1 AD save right now or posted "1755 AD diplo win" with a spoilered screenshot. This way, milestones should be easier to compare and discussions can focus on the current point in the game, with all the attention towards your current position.

To 2960 BC:

Spoiler :

So I did Mining -> Bronze Working and will wait for you to continue. Eyes firmly set on the dream city location. I usually don't mind Archery at all, but might skip it here aswell. I did less scouting than you, planting the warriors on forested hills as soon as possible. Now I had some advantage looking at your screenshots beforehand, but there is jungle to the south so I am pretty sure I would have played exactly this way regardless. No point scouting jungle so early.

Haven't finished a Deity game (or any game of Civ for that matter) in 2017 so far mind. So will see how it goes

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain
Wow that Zara game looks like a tough one. Why did you only build farms in the capital? How did you eventually get enough hammers/BPT to win the game?

Spoiler :

About the philo bulb, I forgot that I didn't need alpha for this game. Not needing alpha or maths makes bulbing philo much less attractive.

I'm glad that you're joining me on this game ^^

Spoiler :

From now I guess the natural tech path would be pottery-writing-fishing-myst-poly-priesthood-CoL ?

About the corn+gold city spot, how do you plan your workers/roading? I would send the worker up as soon as the chopping is done so it can start improving the gold as soon as the city is up, then improve corn.

Well I scouted the jungle a little to make sure there wasn't anybody to the south. It was rather unlikely, though.

Will try to continue playing tomorrow, kinda busy with college stuff right now.

 

[Lain]

Actually, you will need Maths and Alpha anyway. Otherwise the GS won't bulb Optics and Astronomy (Calendar is also a pre-req for the latter). Alpha is great to get a converter tech (hammers -> research), but Maths can wait a bit. So yes, that makes Philosophy is a bit iffy. Also while you are busy getting everything there is a real possibility of losing Philo. I plan to go for Code of Laws, then maybe Alpha and in a perfect world, I trade for Monarchy. GS comes in and if there is a chance, rush for a Philo bulb. Otherwise plan for Astro.

Zara game

Spoiler :

I won the Zara game by growing all my cities and running Rep-Scientists until Steel. In the save, all cities are still quite small since I didn't have any resources... except clams. And some other stuff, but you know what I mean . 10-15 turns later and I was flying. I even got Lib. Research wasn't great, but ~500 beakers is "ok" for that (Astro trade routes are a big deal). I landed Charly who was really weak as you can see (I DoW'd Ragnar when he started plotting to avoid HRE capitulating. I was in war with Ragnar for like 30 turns ). Eventually I was ready, made peace and got a foothold on the continent by taking Charly. It was a long and painful game which went until 1950 AD or something. But Montezuma is not a threat, Ragnar being the only problem.
DoW'ing an overseas civ to keep them from steamrolling their continent has saved a lot of games. And if Toku or Montezuma can't win Domination, how are they going to win?

Not building cottages in the capital was an error of judgment though. A too quickly and badly played game in general. Didn't think I would ever upload it since it's too embarrassing.

On this game

Spoiler :

Tech path: Pottery looks good, but will have to take another look. Might play around with order of techs a bit but generally, yup I will take this path to CoL.

Worker turns: Good question actually... chop the forest and then send the worker along probably, yes. Going to improve the corn first, though. Capital will probably whip the worker with overflow, maybe into a 3rd worker.

 

[Pedro78]

Update to turn 50 (2000BC) :

Spoiler :

Went for Pottery. Fogbusting went quite well with warriors planted on forested hills for most, so Archery wasn't really needed.

Worker finished the chop into the settler, then went 1E to chop another worker. Sent the second worker to second city.

T32 (2720BC) -

Scouting the jungle has proven useful. @Lain this might spoil you quite a bit, but it will definitely change the way I play...

Spoiler :

Someone's here

T34 (2640BC) -

Some good luck here : more forests can't hurt ^^

T35 (2600BC) -

Second city founded on the "dream" spot. Worker came 1 turn late and improved the corn, then gold. Started on a warrior until size 2, then built a worker. Probably won't ever finish that warrior as this city doesen't need to grow to size >2, will keep pumping out workers, will build a granary + library at some point. The corn will be used for a GP farm settled 3W of current city.
Revolted to slavery.

In the capital :

Second worker chopped a third worker. Then put the chop overflow into a settler for 1 turn, then built a warrior while growing to size 4 (not sure how good this is, will be interesting to compare with your game, Lain). Then the workers cottaged around and chopped the newly grown forest.

2440BC The Romans get the Great Wall... ouch

T50 (2000BC) -

Third city settled :

Road was built on time. Sent 1 worker to improve the corn, other one to road into the gold city. Here will probably whip a worker at size 2, then let grow and build a granary.

Worker plans for gold city :

1 guy roading into the Romans before OB, second guy roading towards the capital.
Warrior took out 1 barb warrior, then survived a wounded Barb Archer on the turn after. Odds were rather good, so I don't feel too guilty about it

Spoiler for Lain in the case you don't want to look at this

Spoiler :

Confirmed.

The Mongols? Sitting Bull? Mansa ?
Definitely want a city ASAP where I placed the marker and pop borders.

Long term city plan :

Such an awesome GP farm spot 3S of the gold city

Gonna be an interesting game for sure. I'm playing this one quite slowly, but taking advice from Lain and comparing strategies makes it worthwile ^^

@Lain on the Zara game

Spoiler :

Looking at the 600AD situation, you pulled it off nicely. Having slow techers in the game definitely helps. Funny how Monty can become such a monster on Fractal/Continents, he is such a pushover on Pangea.

 

[Lain]

To 2000 BC:

Spoiler :

I scouted the pigs south of the gold, but sadly, didn't think about possible sea food. I only saw the clam and thought about making 2 cities here, but was also afraid of Augustus squeezing in a city in the south... wasting one clam is not a big deal, right? So I grabbed everything with Edirne. Barb problems also played a role in the decision (settling 2N seemed more dangerous, I saw barb archers there and no good spot to defend)



Yeah, I looked at your screenshots after playing and basically wasted 2 fishes and 1 clam . Nice fail from me. But at least it is proof that I didn't cheat by using scouting info from your screenshots ... ok, it looks pretty stupid now, but I honestly think it's not a big deal. And you have to be a bit worried about Augustus settling on the pigs now. Obviously I still like your city more .

I sent the worker with the settler, improved corn first and then gold. I grew the capital to size 4 and whipped a settler, finishing granary with overflow+chop in 1 turn. Situation now...

I settled the helper city along the river of the capital first, because I had no time to build a road (and corn city won't do much until Myst+Fishing are in, Ankara can help with cottages for the capital while it gets out settlers+first GS). Will farm the floodplain and it should be ok. Your city spot I will grab with city #4 probably, when I get Mysticism and Fishing. Not saying my choice is better though, it's just I didn't like to stretch the empire so early in all directions. I am paying 3 gpt less than you right now, for whatever that's worth.



Istanbul: Granary done, size 2 and putting overflow into worker #4. Going to grow while building cottages now, maybe whip another settler at size 6 into a library.



Edirne: Chopping the granary and I want another library here aswell. GS #2 will come from here (#1 from capital, after that the capital will only work cottages and grow to size 15+ hopefully )



And Ankara not really worth a screenshot yet...

I didn't really scout a lot... But Istanbul pops border next turn and the warrior in the south will be free to scout the coastline . Then, I would've found those AI borders aswell. Scouting the shore very closely is important in scenarios like this. Wish I would've done so for the double fish . But meh, that would be too easy!



Looks like it won't be possible to cross to the other continent though. No ressource trades, no trade routes, "only" tech trades. But of course still important. Not sure it changes much for my plans though. Still want Astro first here.

 

[DrCron]

Interesting game, not easy at all. I won't play it but will keep reading, this looks interesting. I'm also curious to see 2 different approaches to the map and the results for each one.

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain

Spoiler :

Your city settlement plan is interesting. I am not sure whether it is better than mine, as you will grow cottages faster but I will get a stronger second city quicker. I don't think it will be very different though as I'm planning the helper city as a 4th city. Then probably settle the pigs before Augustus sneaks in. Too bad you didn't see the double fish.

Your GP generation plan will be quite a bit different too. I won't get any GP from Edirne, GP farms will be pig city, corn+fish city and corn+lake city. Which means I'll have to settle one more city than you, not sure how that pays out in the long run.

How do you plan your first 2 GS? From libraries in Capital and Edirne? I gotta admit that I'm totally unexperienced with that approach of the game. 90% of my normal speed games were lib+cuirs/steel/cavs, the other 10% were mostly classical/medieval wars.

I also noticed that you got your first settler 1 turn earlier than I did. I can't find out what I did wrong though

 

[Lain]

@Pedro78

Spoiler :

Yes, two libraries in Capital and Edirne. Capital will get the first GS because it can't really grow until Monarchy anyway. Edirne 2nd GS and after that, I hope that the Fish/Corn city will be on 10+ population so I can use Caste System there. Ok I lost the 2x fish, but I got the pigs in exchange for that so it's more than enough food there.

Think it's important to start early, because no marble or religions. But it's certainly possible to have 3-4 GS until ~400 AD this way. Philosophy would be really great if it works out. Definitely at least 2-3 cities needed to generate GP here. Relying on one "super GP farm" will take too long.

Not sure about the one turn, that's strange. Maybe the city governor didn't switch to work the mine the turn you completed it? Sometimes happens and you have to adjust it manually. Only thing I can think of.

Augustus got the Great Wall in my game too, so quite a few similarities there. As long as he doesn't attack, perfect neighbor really. Looks like ~20 cities after taking him out later.

 

[Pedro78]

Update to T75 (1000BC) :

Spoiler :

Went fishing-mysticism-poly-priesthood-CoL. The reason I went fishing before mysticism is I whipped a library rather than a monument in corn+fish city.

Settled the helper city T62 (1520BC), farmed the flood plains.

So far, so good with Augustus. Barb situation looking great as well. Even unlocked the Heroic Epic :

The cities at T75 :

Not sure whether I'll get a GS in Edirne... I would sure love to, but it seems a bit iffy, might get me a ~500AD GS though.

Next city will be the double fish pig one as I really don't want Augustus to sneak in a settler. I lost Confucianism on T48, too bad as I therefore won't be sharing any religions with Augustus. Unless he gets Theology first, that's rather unlikely, though.
Not sure how close to optimal I played here. My worker management seemed fine, though I do still struggle with build order in new cities.

I guess next will be Monarchy, then maybe Alpha.

About GS generation, I think : first one in Istambul, next one in Ankara, the one after will be either in Ankara or in the double fish city. Then just run full Caste System mode in Ankara + double fish city.

What do you think about all this, Lain?

 

[Lain]

To 1000 BC

Spoiler :

Had a few barb problems in Edirne (Great Wall) so that caused a bit delay. I decided to try for Alpha first to maybe trade for Mysticism/Animal Husbandry/Fishing. But it failed midway so had to switch plans. Lost some turns there.



Then I settled cities #4 and #5. Favoring expansion a bit this early in the game.



1000 BC I have Mysticism + Polytheism on Augustus .... and half-researched Alpha of course. Putting some beakers into Animal Husbandry, hoping to trade Poly for it.



Have 5 cities now and I will only start GS production next turn. You are quite far already and almost got CoL, that is quite nice. Alpha thing + barbs slowed me down a bit. But it's ok, next 10-15 turns will be very important.

Overview: Augustus about to settle between my cities, not very nice. 6th city in the south after CoL and that's it until Astro I think.



Also want to gift Augustus a city soon. I'm a bit behind right now. But it's a marathon, not a sprint . So I hope the investment into 5th city earlier will help with teching later. Ironically, Confu is not gone in my game (but someone oracle'd Theology). Not rushing too much, at this point I need to whip some stuff. Caste System becomes nice when cities are bigger.

Things are looking very good for you I'd say.

... Actually, I will go Monarchy first. Won't count on trading for that.

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain

Spoiler :

Too bad for Alpha. Beaker wise it's not a big loss though as you eventually would have had to put some beakers in it if you were to trade monarchy for Alpha.
Didn't think Augustus would go all the way to settle between your cities. Then I guess my sixth city will come pretty soon and be the corn+lake spot.
I hope Augustus will get me Alpha too. As soon as the capital GS comes in, Istambul will build 2 more settlers for city #6 and gift to the Romans. The "our close borders spark tensions" will come pretty soon when you start popping Edirne's borders...

I think spending a couple more turns in slavery might be beneficial for you. Don't you want to settle any helper city south of Istambul? I will at least settle the SW clam spot.
I'm not too sure about the best way to manage CS vs slavery... how the hell am I gonna get my forges up in CS?

Having Astro + a strong cottage cap by 500-600AD would be awesome. Plus all these high food cities will turn into awesome whip farms when it comes to cuir/cannon time

Oh and what about Currency?

 

[Lain]

@Pedro78

Edited additional stuff for your game aswell.

Spoiler :

My next plan is to get Monarchy and grow all cities on warriors. Usually Code of Laws first is nice, but with religions going so fast, having to whip stuff (Granary, Workboats, Lighthouse...) and so much food everywhere Monarchy first might be stronger.

I will basically ignore Currency until I can trade for it. I wouldn't worry too much about forges. Can get them up much later. Basically I will work the coast, grow all cities, get the GS and wait until Astro. Capital should be size 15 @ 1 AD. Economy will be a bit slow until Astro, but then it can explode.

Don't forget you can steal a tech from Augustus. Calendar for example is an easy steal . Or even Currency if you get up a few cheap courthouses for spy points

In your game, I would consider getting the settlers from other cities and letting Istanbul grow as fast as possible after GS is done (2 settlers might slow growth down a lot). I see you are trying to get GS #3 from Edirne, but I don't think it will happen. Might have to be #2 there if you want it.

What about Fish/Corn city? It has potential for size 12 @ 1 AD and then it can run 8-9 scientists. But right now happy cap is a problem so I suggest whipping one or two settlers there.

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain

Spoiler :

I didn't think about stealing techs to Augustus, that's definitely a good idea.

Now that I think about it, going CoL first was most likely a mistake... would have been a superior move had I gotten the religion. Monarchy first, then CoL would have allowed me to get GS2 in Edirne and grow the capital faster.

I'm not too sure about the GP generation plan yet. Definitely a lot of food, and therefore a good amount of potential GS. I'm not sure about the math, but I could probably get GS1 from capital, then GS2 from Edirne, then GS3 from corn+fish. Then there is the double fish city and the corn+ lake. This makes the philo bulb much more interesting imo. Maybe self-tech maths and trade for alpha. Could probably bulb philo before 500BC, then generate 3 more GS in Pacifism + Caste. Then the GS will come quite easily, might even get the Academy in Istambul with the first GS? (Assuming that no one gets 600BC philo at the other side of the map lol).
This whole thing would delay Monarchy, but is probably worth it in the end, right?

You're right about getting settlers in other cities, probably in the corn+fish yeah, waiting for Edirne to generate GS #2.

 

[Lain]

Spoiler :

Always a tricky question about Code of Laws vs Monarchy here. CoL was my plan, but after seeing the game (a lot of food, religion gone etc) Monarchy looks stronger for sure. Since I already lost some time with Alpha, I will definitely tech Monarchy first. It also means I will give up Philosophy.

What is better in your case? I think since you "committed" already, should probably try for Philosophy. Would also be interesting to compare both games later. Of course it's painful to keep all the cities on size 5-6 for so long. Philosophy solves the GP problem, but often it is harder to reach a good tech rate in semi isolation. No academy, little tech trading, no bureaucracy, not many resources... I feel with so much food, the GPP is not a big problem. But religion will make Augustus friendly, otherwise not possible probably. Don't know the right decision. Maybe you could say that Philosophy is high risk-high reward and Monarchy is safe approach. Since I already burned myself with Alpha I will go for Monarchy 100% now, no more gamble. If you lose a few gambles the control can be lost very quickly on Deity. And well, no religion = no conflict with other AIs later

3-4 GS are nice, but if you have to self-tech Compass, Metal Casting and Machinery (need Aesthetics to bulb Machinery btw)... maybe the GS will just wait for 10 turns doing nothing. Well it's hard to balance, but interesting for sure.

Yes, I like your GS plan right now. Capital, Edirne and then Corn/Fish. Good luck for Philosophy if you go for that .

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler :

It sure will be interesting to compare the approaches.
I need to think a little about what is the best strategy from where I am right now, the philo way looks interesting. I don't know about bulbing Machinery then... getting Aesthetics would take me too far out of my way. Maybe if I manage to get the Romans to friendly and get it from them, that's unlikely though. Might just be better off building an academy with GS #1.

From where you are there is no doubt that going Monarchy is better, as the risk of missing Taoism is quite high.

Will play some more either tomorrow or the day after.

 

[Pedro78]

Update to turn 101 (350BC) :

Spoiler :

I decided not too run any scientists in Edirne. The Romans got alpha a couple of turns after I got CoL. Traded CoL + Poly for Monarchy. Had to self-tech maths anyways in order to bulb philo. Kinda weird he went for Meditation, the AI tends to priorize Meditation from my experience. I won't be able to trade for it anyways, so that doesen't change much...

First GS was used for an Academy :

Augustus began stacking a bunch of troops on my border. I quickly gifted him a crappy city and begged for peace :

After Maths I went for Sailing for lighthouses, then straight to Metal Casting, which I traded for Alpha + AH after putting a few beakers in the latter :

Bulbed philo the next turn, after I got Meditation :

Got the religion (in Edirne), going to convert Augustus on the next turn. Hopefully this will get him to friendly. The cheap courthouses allowed me to get a few more EPs than usual, I plan on stealing him Aesthetics so that I can bulb Machinery.

With caste + Pacifism + this much food the 4 GS should come in pretty effortlessly. Yet have to settle my last GP farm though, a little late on that.

Now I'm thinking about slowly teching IW then Compass, then probably putting some beakers into Civil Service to get ready for a bureau cap after Astro.

Struggling a little with all the warriors builds + having to expand, grow capital and produce GP, all without slavery... that's why I'm expanding really slow.

The game looks in a quite good position now, though It probably would have been much slower hadn't Augustus got me Monarchy and Alpha. Kinda got the best of both worlds here.

Augustus is expanding quite fast, 12 (11) cities already, he didn't try to settle between my cities though.

Edit : There are indeed horses in the capital BFC. Now that I look at the SS, it kinda looks like I knew it and roaded into the horses beforehand lol but it was only worker turn usage after chopping the foress. What would be the point in doing that anyways?
(Now that I look at it, I haven't seen any Chariots/HAs on my border, so it might be wise to connect them and sell them to Augustus)

 

[Lain]

Turn 101

Spoiler :

Also gifted Augustus a city, should be safe from now on.



Funny, Taoism got founded on Turn 101 in my game aswell. Not by me though. I'm ready to settle city #6 and switch into Caste System (only now!) for quick border pop.



Empire overview... I have no Philosophy, no Alpha (ok will trade for it next turn or so) no Metal Casting, no single GS out yet. Just growing stuff and whipping Granaries, Lighthouses and now Courthouses. Ready to switch into Caste System now with big cities.



Capital: will be size 14 @ 1 AD by my calculations.



Edirne: Settler for city #7 on the clam. With the barb city I might take that will be 8. GS #2 here in very early AD.



Ankara: Helper city, will pump out warriors from now on I guess.



Bursa: No GS from here, will just grow to happy cap and work all mines to build research / Swordsmen as needed.



Konya: Will start running 8-9 scientists soon for quick GS #3



I have Poly, Priesthood, Code of Laws and Monarchy on Augustus. Can get Alpha if I want and pick off failgold from him. He will never be friendly



Will have 8, at best 9 cities against his 13+. But he has a lot of tundra, not really worried.



Lots of stuff didn't go as planned. Barbs, Alpha gamble, not seeing double fish, Augustus settling in between my cities .... but looks okay. Probably I will reach a tech like Steel quite a bit slower than you, religion for pacifism and friendly neighbor are very nice. But it should be fine.

In my case, since I don't do academies or early bulbs, it doesn't really matter "when" I get the GS. I just know I need to have 3 ready @ ~500 AD. Until then they just cost maintenance

I might make some videos (Let's Plays) of Deity games to get back motivation. I am a bit disgusted with myself for how out of shape I am. Probably wasted 100 worker turns already.

 

[DrCron]

I might make some videos (Let's Plays) of Deity games to get back motivation

This should be interesting to watch. Looks like AbsoluteZero is the only experienced Deity player still making CIV 4 videos, and I'd like to see a different style and game planning.

@Pedro78: Would you mind posting a screenshot of the crappy city you gifted Augustus? I haven't tried this strategy yet and I'd like to see more about it.

@Lain: Your "trash" city doesn't seem SO awful considering the terrible dessert and tundra land further up north. Did you decide to settle there because of urgency?

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain
Too bad this many things didn't go as planned in your game. I played a bit further and from what I see you can still go quite a bit further from where you are.
Can't wait to see your let's plays though

Big update to turn 142 (640AD) part 1/3 :

Spoiler :

Tech path : IW-Compass-(Aesthetics)-Masonry-Machinery-(Calendar)-(Currency, Monotheism)-Optics-(Construction, Litterature)-Astro-(HBR, Civil Service)

The GP generation phase started a bit later than planned. Once I got philo I quickly switched back into slavery, whiped 4 more settlers and a couple of courthouses. Also had to whip for the religion spread. Later on I switched back to CS and went whole GP mode.

On turn 119 (100AD), the mysterious AI turned out to be Sitting Bull. He only has six cities and doesen't seem to be teching too fast.

Put a couple beakers into Calendar and traded for it the turn after

These warriors are costing waaay too much cash in pacifism . Plus I really built waay too much of these, but only realized it much later.

T121 (150AD) : GS #3 and #4 getting ready. Lost the clam in double fish city, guess I can't complain though

T122 (175AD) : getting ready for the machinery bulb. These cheap courthouses are officially awesome. Idk why Ankara began running a spy all the sudden, I must have forgotten to check it for 1-2 turns...

T126 (275AD) : Optics bulbed by GS #4

T130 (300AD) : Augustus finally friendly, I don't wanna trade him neither philo nor optics this soon, though... He switches back to pleased pretty soon.

RAAAAAH stupid me... left this city running an artist at pop 1 for 14 turns