Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k

[Zardnaar]

You're splitting hairs to confuse and minimize the original point. That point being that general era of the Star Wars universe has been recanonized and in that era they are using more or less the same technology they are using now. This flies in the face of the point that Star Wars shows steady technological advancement. They do not. Technology has been stagnate in Star Wars for at least 4000 years, likely longer.

As a side note: I find the current comparison between the GE and IoM to be a bit unfair. We are comparing the GE at the height of it's power versus the IoM while it is in a state of severe decline. To make an accurate comparison, we'd have to either use the IoM during the Great Crusade (when the God Emperor was still up and walking around) or the GE right before or during the Battle of Jakku.

IN that 4000 years technology did not stagnate. If you time warped a KoToR ship to the time of the Empire it would get chewed apart by modern weaponry and hyperdrives are faster now than during the KoToR times. For example just a few hundred years earlier lightsabers still had power cords.

Also KoToR still had more advanced stuff than the Dark Age of Technology which is perhaps (at best) comparable to the Golden Age of the Sith era in Star Wars which was around 5000 years before ANH.

In the old cannon technology did kind of stagnate. Improvements did happen of course but it was more gradual but that changed a lot from around the prequal era. From the Clone Wars through to Last Jedi you can see the changes.

Warhammer 40k has actually regressed. The First order has actually teched up faster than the old Imperial Remnant has in legends as they lacked anything like a Resurgent Class Star Destroyer which is similar perhaps the ships from the old legacy era (140 years after the original trilogy). Its why I said I would mostly ignore the old legends canon except where it doesn't contradict the new canon or you can use it for an example of how things work (in general) in the SW galaxy. Both the New Republic and Imperial Remnant i the old lore went smaller with micro technology and more droids to reduce crew sizes and improve firepower with the new Imperial ships being similar in size to Victory class Star Destroyers but with a bit more firepower than an ISD II (kind of similar to todays frigates having missiles than can take out a bigger WW2 era battleship).

SHips in Star Wars used to have things like the Warhammer ones but they do not use kinetic based artiller and old missiles any more (because they do not work). IN ESB for example they take Vaders fleet into an asteroid field and the shields bounce large asteroids off them for a bit, in the old EU an ISD was caught on the edge of a Supernova and survived although it fried all the sensors. The reason the rebels can blow them up so easy is plot armor and the power level of things like Star Wars proton torpedoes which are energy based shaped charges that channel several megatons to giga tons worth of power to break a shield (such as the bomber in Last Jedi). Its why Jabbas goons in RotJ al crap themselves when Leia as a bounty hunter pulls out a thermal detonator its basically a hand held nuke using baradium.

In the old legends material they do find some worlds with nuclear technology for example and they are launching nuclear rockets at each other and they were regarded as little threat either because the rockets would get shot down or the shields would protect them (implied they could take a nuclear explosion).

Its why I said in the OP its possible the Imperium ships could barely scratch an ISD if their guns are all but useless. Hell even in the movies you see a Corellion Corvette (a small 100 metre ship) take several turbolaser blasts from an ISD (which was not shooting to kill to be fair). Its not because the ISD weapons are weak but because of the strength of Star Wars shields, the rebels used an ion cannon at Hoth which is Star Wars tech for dealing with shields (and it was powered by an old reactor from an ISD type vessel in the old canon).

 

[Zardnaar]

I could be wrong but I don't think the Dune universe is contained to just one galaxy

It is.

Star Wars has a few Dune light elements but it was more inspired by a Japanese Samurai movie and its more or less a fantasy/traditional tail set in space. Obi Wan is more or less Gandalf, Luke is something like King Arthur etc.

 

[warpus]

In the scattering it is said that humanity expanded into "the uncharted universe", though. At least that's what it says in the book at least IIRC

 

[Zardnaar]

In the scattering it is said that humanity expanded into "the uncharted universe", though. At least that's what it says in the book at least IIRC

Possible but AFAIK none of the Dune books have gone extragalactic or had extragalctic invasions that both SW and WH have had (Vong and Tyrannids).

Not sure if Dune fold space tech can reach another galaxy or if after the god emeror they used the older drives to scatter.

 

[FriendlyFire]

In fairness, Star Wars does feature prominently a desert planet and the trade of an exotic substance known as spice.

Rip off all the major Japanese movies like Hidden fortress, and battles taken from Midway
WH40K also steals from just about all major culture and movies for its universe.

 

[Hygro]

I read this whole thread. Warhammer loses.

 

[Commodore]

Also KoToR still had more advanced stuff than the Dark Age of Technology

You keep saying this but there is no evidence to support this claim. Warhammer 40k provides extremely rare examples of Dark Age of Technology tech, so we really don't know how advanced humanity really was during that era. Especially since in the lore it is stated that just about every accurate historical record of the Dark Age of Technology has been lost.

However, there are some examples given in brief descriptions of the Iron Man Rebellion that would actually lead me to believe Dark Age tech was more advanced than anything seen in Star Wars. One such example would be nanotech that was used extensively by both human and machine forces in that war. Nanotech is something that has never been seen in Star Wars according to the current canon.

Its why I said in the OP its possible the Imperium ships could barely scratch an ISD if their guns are all but useless

And I think you are greatly underestimating just how powerful macrocannons are in 40k. The macrocannons on a single battleship are powerful enough to eventually breach a planet all the way down to its core and cause it to break apart after just an hour or two of sustained bombardment. And that's without using all the other cool planet-killing weapons they have on board like cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs.

For comparison, we hear Han say that not even the entire GE fleet combined could destroy a planet the way the Death Star did. That means the macrocannons on Imperial Navy vessels are approaching Death Star levels of firepower (although obviously weaker since the Death Star can one-shot planets while an Imperial battleship does have to bombard for a bit).

And that's not even getting into other weapons like lances, nova cannons, and plasma macrocannons. Basically, what I'm trying to say is I have no idea where you are getting this notion that Imperial Navy ships would struggle to damage ISDs. Remember, just because they use projectile weapons does not automatically make them more primitive.

I read this whole thread. Warhammer loses.

Nah. The Imperium may lose, but the 40k galaxy as a whole curb stomps the Star Wars galaxy hard. There is nothing in the Star Wars galaxy that could counter a force like the Necrons, Tyranids, or Orks. And once the forces of Chaos and all the daemons that come with them get into the mix, the Star Wars galaxy is really done for.

And before someone brings up the Yuuzhan Vong as evidence that the Star Wars galaxy could hold off the Tyranids, remember this: 1. The Yuuzhan Vong are no longer canon, so they can't be brought into this discussion at all. 2. Even if we did consider them, aside from having biologically engineered ships, the Yuuzhan Vong are nothing like the Tyranids and still fight more or less like a conventional military force. The Vong never swarmed like the Tyranids do (Tyranid scouting fleets contain hundreds of trillions of Tyranids), they never stripped planets of all biomass (including the very atmosphere itself) like the Tyranids, and they certainly never had anything like the Genestealer Cults, which are probably the Tyranids' most potent weapon against their enemies. The Vong also never showed the sheer adaptability the Tyranids have. Oh, you came up with a potent new bio weapon that will kill all Tyranids? Cool. Except after using it once, the next generation of Tyranids will be immune to it. Not only that, but they will eventually develop their own toxins and poisons that will be specifically tailored to kill the species encountered in the Star Wars galaxy.

 

[Hygro]

None of it matters because the Star Wars team can teleport around and take down the Orcs In Space before they can muster.

 

[Commodore]

None of it matters because the Star Wars team can teleport around and take down the Orcs In Space before they can muster.

Teleportation does not exist in Star Wars. It does in 40k though and the Orks have it too. Plus, Ork ships will always be faster than Imperial ships because Ork ships are painted red. In case you didn't know, the Orks have this weird trait where if enough Orks believe something to be true, then it will be true even if it is something that would normally be impossible. For example, most Ork firearms are nonfunctional because they are just hollowed out metal tubes with a trigger but no firing mechanism. However, in the hands of an Ork, that gun will shoot because the Ork believes it should shoot. They also believe vehicles and ships with red paint jobs go faster than those that don't, which is why they paint everything red.

So if the crew of an Ork vessel believes they should be able to catch up to and ram an ISD, it will happen. Also, if they believe they will win a fight against the GE because "green is best" and "dem humie gitz iz weak", chances are they will win the fight.

Also, Orks don't muster. That would imply organization and the Orks are anything but organized. That's the only thing that has stopped them from completely overrunning the 40k galaxy.

And that really is the big problem with comparing 40k to anything. Most other fictional universes are created with some semblance of sanity to keep things at least semi-believable. 40k on the other hand, throws sanity to the wind and makes everything OP as hell for the sole purpose of maximizing the coolness level of the setting. It's like they designed the factions by having a bunch of 8-year-olds argue over which one is the best and they just kept attributing more and more ridiculously OP traits to their side to make it seem like the best.

 

[Hygro]

Star Wars fleets will show up broadcasting “haha look at your slow blue ships you loser orks” and then kill them in the moment of cognitive dissonance.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Teleportation does not exist in Star Wars. It does in 40k though and the Orks have it too. Plus, Ork ships will always be faster than Imperial ships because Ork ships are painted red. In case you didn't know, the Orks have this weird trait where if enough Orks believe something to be true, then it will be true even if it is something that would normally be impossible. For example, most Ork firearms are nonfunctional because they are just hollowed out metal tubes with a trigger but no firing mechanism. However, in the hands of an Ork, that gun will shoot because the Ork believes it should shoot. They also believe vehicles and ships with red paint jobs go faster than those that don't, which is why they paint everything red.

So if the crew of an Ork vessel believes they should be able to catch up to and ram an ISD, it will happen. Also, if they believe they will win a fight against the GE because "green is best" and "dem humie gitz iz weak", chances are they will win the fight..

That only works when there are sufficent enough orcs to power their wyde boyz, and if there are too many orcs their pychers head often explodes from too much power often killing many around him.
Not to mention Teleportation often is a massive risky affair, with people teleporting to their deaths often.

Since when can an Orc be able to fire using empty tubes ? Maybe if orcs were that smart that could believe they can shoot straight as well instead of A teaming everything in a hail of fire.
Then there are the Feral orcs with medieval age / iron age technology you'd think they would have genetic mech boys being able to also build guns, ships and tanks which they cant. Where did this idea that orcs can use metal tubes and make dakka dakka noises actually made guns work come from ?

 

[Commodore]

That only works when there are sufficent enough orcs to power their wyde boyz

Are you talking about teleportation? If so, Orks have telyportas on most of their ships and they can function without a weirdboy.

Not to mention Teleportation often is a massive risky affair, with people teleporting to their deaths often.

That's old lore. New lore retconned teleportation to be much more reliable and a lot less dangerous.

Since when can an Orc be able to fire using empty tubes ?

Since always? There was a book that came out that broke down all the abilities of the various xenos races. It was told from the perspective of an AdMech geneticist studying xenos races. It is in that book that Ork technology only works because they believe it should work and in the hands of anyone other than an Ork, is nonfunctional.

Maybe if orcs were that smart that could believe they can shoot straight as well instead of A teaming everything in a hail of fire.

They're not that smart. Plus, Orks are all about choppin' rather than shootin'. And when it comes to shootin' all an Ork cares about is creating as much dakka as he possibly can with no concern for whether that dakka is actually hitting its intended target. In short, Orks don't care about accuracy, only that there never seems to be enough dakka.

you'd think they would have genetic mech boys being able to also build guns, ships and tanks

They do have them. When an Ork infestation is in the feral stage, eventually a Mechboy or Mechboyz will start to appear that start making more advanced stuff. It's part of their genetics. Remember, the Orks were engineered by the Old Ones millions of years ago to fight the Necrons. That's where all their abilities come from. The Orks are essentially just an out of control bioweapon.

Star Wars fleets will show up broadcasting “haha look at your slow blue ships you loser orks” and then kill them in the moment of cognitive dissonance.

That won't work. For one, Star Wars species would have no understanding of Ork language (not even 40k factions do). For gameplay purposes they speak in a weird form of English, but in universe their language is described as having countless dialects and even contain words adopted from other languages they've come in contact with. Basically, no two Ork clans will speak the same language which makes communicating with them nearly impossible.

Secondly, even if they could communicate with the Orks, the Orks are too simple-minded to experience anything like cognitive dissonance. It's why, despite their strong connection to The Warp, the Chaos Gods are very rarely able to corrupt Orks.

 

[r16]

the landing ships of the Trade Federation resemble the ships of the Dune the movie , but ı wouldn't know anything else . You know , subscription stuff .

 

[Hygro]

Well this fight better happen soon or warhammer will be revised too strong one day.

 

[Commodore]

Well this fight better happen soon or warhammer will be revised too strong one day.

It already is too strong. I remember having this discussion on another forum and the general consensus was the only fictional universe that would beat 40k easily is Looney Tunes. The reason being that Looney Tunes doesn't operate on anything resembling consistent laws of physics or any established norms. Its characters can literally do anything they so desire and can't be truly killed. They are gods, and as such, could easily defeat any opponent that challenges them.

 

[Hygro]

By the discussion earlier in the thread the logic of the two faster than light options made Star Wars stronger, but if that doesn’t matter because godmode then so be it.

 

[Zardnaar]

You keep saying this but there is no evidence to support this claim. Warhammer 40k provides extremely rare examples of Dark Age of Technology tech, so we really don't know how advanced humanity really was during that era. Especially since in the lore it is stated that just about every accurate historical record of the Dark Age of Technology has been lost.

However, there are some examples given in brief descriptions of the Iron Man Rebellion that would actually lead me to believe Dark Age tech was more advanced than anything seen in Star Wars. One such example would be nanotech that was used extensively by both human and machine forces in that war. Nanotech is something that has never been seen in Star Wars according to the current canon.



And I think you are greatly underestimating just how powerful macrocannons are in 40k. The macrocannons on a single battleship are powerful enough to eventually breach a planet all the way down to its core and cause it to break apart after just an hour or two of sustained bombardment. And that's without using all the other cool planet-killing weapons they have on board like cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs.

For comparison, we hear Han say that not even the entire GE fleet combined could destroy a planet the way the Death Star did. That means the macrocannons on Imperial Navy vessels are approaching Death Star levels of firepower (although obviously weaker since the Death Star can one-shot planets while an Imperial battleship does have to bombard for a bit).

And that's not even getting into other weapons like lances, nova cannons, and plasma macrocannons. Basically, what I'm trying to say is I have no idea where you are getting this notion that Imperial Navy ships would struggle to damage ISDs. Remember, just because they use projectile weapons does not automatically make them more primitive.



Nah. The Imperium may lose, but the 40k galaxy as a whole curb stomps the Star Wars galaxy hard. There is nothing in the Star Wars galaxy that could counter a force like the Necrons, Tyranids, or Orks. And once the forces of Chaos and all the daemons that come with them get into the mix, the Star Wars galaxy is really done for.

And before someone brings up the Yuuzhan Vong as evidence that the Star Wars galaxy could hold off the Tyranids, remember this: 1. The Yuuzhan Vong are no longer canon, so they can't be brought into this discussion at all. 2. Even if we did consider them, aside from having biologically engineered ships, the Yuuzhan Vong are nothing like the Tyranids and still fight more or less like a conventional military force. The Vong never swarmed like the Tyranids do (Tyranid scouting fleets contain hundreds of trillions of Tyranids), they never stripped planets of all biomass (including the very atmosphere itself) like the Tyranids, and they certainly never had anything like the Genestealer Cults, which are probably the Tyranids' most potent weapon against their enemies. The Vong also never showed the sheer adaptability the Tyranids have. Oh, you came up with a potent new bio weapon that will kill all Tyranids? Cool. Except after using it once, the next generation of Tyranids will be immune to it. Not only that, but they will eventually develop their own toxins and poisons that will be specifically tailored to kill the species encountered in the Star Wars galaxy.

I said you could use the old Legends as long as it has not been contradicted by the new stuff and if it was not to over the top.

Tyranids and Vong are very different. The Vong thing had a ew good points and it did do a decent job in describing how the SW galaxy would defend itsel in a sustained long term conventional (kinda) invasion.

Even then more than a few in universe characters wondered if the old Empire would have handled the invasion better than the New Republic did. Which Palapatine basically would have.

Theres pockets of technology in the Warhammer universe that is better than Star Wars but its either scattered among various factions or ios from the distant past. The iron men may have had nano tech (IDK) but the humans did not and neither does the IoM which lacks things like basic droids and targeting computers by GE standards.

The thread is not about who would win between SW galaxy and WH40k galaxy but between the IoM and the Galactic Empire circa ESB. The reasons I said to leave out some of the dafter things in both universe is that I am sure WH40k has some terrible novel where some stupid author put in XYZ superweapon or something that the heroes managed to deal with. By that I more or less meant what the respective factions can reliably use or realistically acquire (in SW case using the movies and some of the saner Legend novels).

I'm aware that the Imperioum has things like Cyclonic torpedoes, the Empire had something similar that ignited stars and caused them to go supernova but they were experimental and in a silly series of books. If you allow stuff like that in Star Wars would probably win all of the time. Superior hyperdrive tech, into Sol system ignite star, destroys golden throne, Imperial fleets+ marines+ army etc can't actually go anywhere.

Could the GE make another DS? Yes. Could they develop other super weapons similar to the legends cannons? Yes. Can they mass manufacture Star Destroyers and cruisers yes? Could they perhaps create another clone and or droid army yes.

Can they ignite a star yes/no sorta is it viable they could do that maybe.

Can they pull out fleets of cloaked ships, nano tech droids, dyson spehres and ring worlds no.

Warhammer 40k has gods- they're not on the IoM's side though.

 

[FriendlyFire]

This is what happens when you dont plan things out properly and then have different people filling in different parts.
Mekboyz were supose to have genetic memories of human engineer but without having to do book learning, I had alway assumed this was the case for feral orcs whom had there collection of mekboys but were unable to create any of the high tech weapons due to low tech level of the planet and needing precision machine tools / materials

If mek boys have the tech to rivet, weld and machine press then it is very easy to make simple crude working guns.
Plus how many orcs dose it take to physically power something before it will fall apart ? Some thing like a crude Orc warship seperated from the orc warfleet would soon stop working ?
Then we have Small dreadnaughts piloted by a single gretchin, I assume they stop working the moment an Orc horde is reduced in size due to physic powering it running out.

Or maybe the weapons are imbuded with a fix amount of physic power and once that power runs out it stop working / falls apart.

I'd always had imagined that the orcs had their mek boys engineers make working weapons, working ships and tanks, while Orc physic powers were only able to be used by the weird boys to power their physic power of the mob. Else all the Orcs would be able to create simple weapons and power them with their own physic power.

 

[Commodore]

By the discussion earlier in the thread the logic of the two faster than light options made Star Wars stronger, but if that doesn’t matter because godmode then so be it.

Well we only discussed the Imperium's method of FTL which is very unpredictable and unreliable. There are other methods of FTL in 40k though that are stupidly OP. For instance the Necrons have some kind of inertialess drive that allows infinite acceleration for their ships and allows even massive capital ships to dart around like starfighters.

BTW, the Necrons are by far the most technologically advanced faction in 40k. So you'll see me talking about them a lot when giving examples of just how advanced tech in 40k can get.

By that I more or less meant what the respective factions can reliably use or realistically acquire

Everything I've described fits that definition. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Everything in 40k is extremely OP by design. Things like cyclonic torpedoes are not rare or experimental, they are mass produced and used on an almost daily basis by the Imperium. Same with macrocannons, teleportation, psykers, etc.

destroys golden throne, Imperial fleets+ marines+ army etc can't actually go anywhere.

This is a common misconception about how the Imperium's FTL works. Warp travel does not become impossible without the Astronomican projected by the Emperor, it just becomes a lot more dangerous as it becomes easier for a ship's navigator to get lost in the Warp. However Warp travel is still possible as seen in the Gothic War (also known as the 12th Black Crusade). In that war, the entire Gothic Sector was cut off from the Astronomican due to massive warp storms, yet the navigators of Battlefleet Gothic were still able to guide their ships through the Warp in order to redeploy where needed to counter Abbadon's invasion.

Also, destroying Sol isn't going to be as easy as you might think. The Sol system has pretty much been turned into a solar system-sized fortress by the Imperium. Holy Terra itself is said to have so many defense platforms and orbital fortresses that one could walk around the entire planet on them. Any GE fleet would also have to contend with Battlefleet Solar which remains in the Sol System at all times. Their sole duty being the protection of the Imperium's most holy planets.

but between the IoM and the Galactic Empire circa ESB.

And I've stated I don't think that's a fair comparison. You are comparing the GE at the height of its power versus the Imperium when it is arguably at its weakest and on the verge of collapse. That's why I think a more fair comparison would be the GE at its height versus the Imperium during the Great Crusade, which was the height of its power. Then we could bring in things like the Space Marine legions, massive warfleets (since during the Great Crusade, the Imperium had an industrial capacity on par with the GE), the Custodes, and even the Emperor himself.

Or better yet, I'd be interested to see people's thoughts on how the GE would even begin to tackle a threat like the Necrons or Tyranids invading their galaxy.

 

[Commodore]

This is what happens when you dont plan things out properly and then have different people filling in different parts.

It's also what happens when Games Workshop adopts a canon policy of "Everything is canon!" I'm not even joking either. That is seriously their policy on 40k lore.