Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k

[Kyriakos]

This is because the EU was a complete mess of different authors doing radically-different things for years, often with no oversight or consideration for consistency with previous narrative arcs.

People moan about the "Disney era", but assuming you want consistency in storytelling, some kind of guiding hand needs to enforce something on the legions of licensed novels an IP puts out. The flipside of this is things can end up too excessively-curated, or areas forbidden because it "needs" to be explored in a particular show, movie, or other kind of moneymaking tie-in (which reduces the possibility space and thus creative output of the IP).

I'm on board with the new Canon over Legends, personally. At the same time, I reserve the right to criticise whatever narrative choices are made in this new timeline. I just think it's an improvement overall.

Warhammer has had a similar problem, but Games Workshop solves this (or "solves" this, depending on how much you like the approach) by making the miniature tabletop game be the product that sells. All the lore is in service to that, and they don't have to care about movies, etc. So they'll uncover a new tidbit in a new release for a new army, and this will supercede whatever was in a previous release, even if it directly contradicts that lore. And this is because the setting is something that revolves around "everything is a horrorshow and we've forgotten all the stuff that has made us good", so each iteration; each edition, gives each faction a chance to rediscover lost tech, or evolve in some similarly-incremental way.

Considering even Lucas didn't care for consistency (midichlorians etc), why expect more from his diadochi ^^
Lends credence to the theory the original SW was successful not due to, but despite Lucas.

 

[Farm Boy]

What's amusing in this comparison is that WH40K drinks, runs and lives on over-the-top silliness and rule of cool, and yet SW manages to be more ridiculous and inconsistent with its superweapons.

40k understands it's naked grimderp. Star Wars always thought it was more than a space spaghetti western.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Star Wars was created 'cause George Lucas couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon.

 

[Gorbles]

40k understands itself well. Star Wars is at its best when it does the same, but it doesn't manage it as consistently.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Star Wars was created 'cause George Lucas couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon.

And because Akira Kurosawa wasn't actually his father, dangit.

 

[Gorbles]

And because Akira Kurosawa wasn't actually his father, dangit.

We're going for deep cuts here and I like it.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Just wanted to contribute to this excellent discussion. I consider myself quite knowledgeable about the SW universe. To borrow from the WH40K universe however I consider all things past the sale of the SW franchise to Disney as Heresy!!!!!!! (With the exception of Rogue One which to me feels much more dystopian than anything Lucas came up with, even THX1138) Now that you know where I stand there you can understand where I'm coming from in the SW universe.

I've only read the first 10 books or so of the Horus Heresy and that is where my knowledge of the WH40K universe ends. I have not studied much about the War Hammer universe that is set in a medieval time frame where there are only swords and spears.

I love both franchises very much so this is a hard discussion to have.

All I can say is that what I love about WH40K is that the bad guys are not inept buffoons. Even in the OT of SW the Empire was a mix of pure evil but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn even with computer aided systems. To seriously pit each universe against the other we must assume:

1. The Star Wars Empire is not a bunch of idiots who constantly look like fools
2. The IoM may have to toy with adding heretical technologies to their mix in order to take on the SW Empire.

 

[Ajidica]

I don't get why people think the Imperium would struggle so much in terms of technology. We saw in RotJ how a single fighter crashing into a Star Destroyer crippled it and caused it to crash. Imperial Cruisers are throwing out shells bigger than most ships we see in Star Wars as part of a regular broadside.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I don't get why people think the Imperium would struggle so much in terms of technology. We saw in RotJ how a single fighter crashing into a Star Destroyer crippled it and caused it to crash. Imperial Cruisers are throwing out shells bigger than most ships we see in Star Wars as part of a regular broadside.

Well that fighter crashing into the SSD and taking it out was later explained in the Thrawn trilogies as due to the emperor losing his force control over his fleet after vader killed him in the second death star. Since this was a unique event we might consider throwing that example out the window.

As for the Imperium ships firing shells bigger than most ships in the SW universe I would argue this...are the shields and deflector screens of the SW universe powerful enough to vaporize kinetic weapon ammo before it even has a chance to puncture ship armor?

 

[Zardnaar]

This is because the EU was a complete mess of different authors doing radically-different things for years, often with no oversight or consideration for consistency with previous narrative arcs.

People moan about the "Disney era", but assuming you want consistency in storytelling, some kind of guiding hand needs to enforce something on the legions of licensed novels an IP puts out. The flipside of this is things can end up too excessively-curated, or areas forbidden because it "needs" to be explored in a particular show, movie, or other kind of moneymaking tie-in (which reduces the possibility space and thus creative output of the IP).

I'm on board with the new Canon over Legends, personally. At the same time, I reserve the right to criticise whatever narrative choices are made in this new timeline. I just think it's an improvement overall.

Warhammer has had a similar problem, but Games Workshop solves this (or "solves" this, depending on how much you like the approach) by making the miniature tabletop game be the product that sells. All the lore is in service to that, and they don't have to care about movies, etc. So they'll uncover a new tidbit in a new release for a new army, and this will supercede whatever was in a previous release, even if it directly contradicts that lore. And this is because the setting is something that revolves around "everything is a horrorshow and we've forgotten all the stuff that has made us good", so each iteration; each edition, gives each faction a chance to rediscover lost tech, or evolve in some similarly-incremental way.

That's fair one tends to remember the good parts of the old EU. There's worse than TLJ and ROS in old Legends.

Thrawn trilogy was a lot better than Disney though.

But Disney stiff is animated (Rebels), Rogue One and S2 Mandalorian and Andor.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't get why people think the Imperium would struggle so much in terms of technology. We saw in RotJ how a single fighter crashing into a Star Destroyer crippled it and caused it to crash. Imperial Cruisers are throwing out shells bigger than most ships we see in Star Wars as part of a regular broadside.

Very fast hyperspace travel. You're looking at a few minutes to a few days to cross the galaxy. Vs years.

Artistically wise Warhammer ships look like ancient ships in Star Wars. Technology wise they're something like 5-25000 years behind Star Wars.

Star Wars shields are also really good theor ships coukd be impervious to Warhammer weaponry. Star Wars weaponry is designed to deal with Star Wars tech.

Superweapons are more common and readily available to the imperium of man though.

 

[Kyriakos]

What happened to that 40K movie tv series project? (about some random inquisitor)

 

[GenMarshall]

Star Wars shields are also really good theor ships coukd be impervious to Warhammer weaponry. Star Wars weaponry is designed to deal with Star Wars tech.

That would depend on what shielding is being used and what projectiles are being used. Ray shields would deflect and diffuse any energy projectile coming from an energy weapon: laser, plasma bolt, arc lightning. Particle shields can deflect any high velocity kinetic projectile (bullets, missiles, torpedos). So long as both shield generators are operating and have enough power supply, they can deflect and absorb WH40 weaponry. Provided that EMP weaponry to burn off the shield and still have enough energy to reach the shield generator to burn out it’s circuitry aren’t on the field.

Well that fighter crashing into the SSD and taking it out was later explained in the Thrawn trilogies as due to the emperor losing his force control over his fleet after vader killed him in the second death star. Since this was a unique event we might consider throwing that example out the window.

My take on it was that the starfighters are traveling at a slow enough speed to not be effected by particle shields to get within knifes range of the starship. The A-wing that collided into the bridge of the Executor got hit with anti-aircraft fire with enough damage to loose flight controls and ended up kamakazing into the bridge. My own theory as to why the Executor made a turn to her port side is that her helmsman (Or a crew of helmsmen) tried to maneuver the ship as to not collide with the craft out of instinct or panic and the Death Star II’s own gravity and her engines still running adding to the momentum.

Normally a sudden destruction of the bridge would leave the Executor still traveling forward and a secondary bridge personnel and the executive officer (second in command of the vessel) would have been at the secondary bridge to take control and maneuver her to disengage and perform fire and damage control. The Executor’s helm would have been deep inside the structure of the ship itself and not in the bridge (Much like the sub’s helm is deep in the vessel itself and not in the conning tower). While I chalk up to her leaning to her port side as the helmsman crew were in a panic, they should have no reason to panic being deep within the Executor’s hull unless Kuat Drive Yard’s engineers purposely designed her and her sisters to have the helm on the bridge as opposed to how modern navies position their helms. Seeing the fire coming out of the superstructure of the bridge, the fire control crew will be activating air locks on that section of the ship to prevent oxygen from escaping into space and fueling the fire. This is going by with what happened with the USS San Francisco (CA-38) when her bridge was destroyed at the Battle of Guadalcanal and what procedure a modern nuclear sub would perform if they have a leak in a hull after a collision (like what happened to the USS San Francisco (SSN-711) when she collided with an undersea mountain as well as using Googlefu to find instances in real life of “what would happen if a warship lost her bridge”.

I love both franchises very much so this is a hard discussion to have.

Try being a person who likes both franchises (With Star Wars: the prequels, the original, the original EU, Andor and Rouge One), and StarCraft . (I’d throw in WarCraft but the only sci-fi element are the Dreanei and The Burning Legion).

All I can say is that what I love about WH40K is that the bad guys are not inept buffoons. Even in the OT of SW the Empire was a mix of pure evil but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn even with computer aided systems. To seriously pit each universe against the other we must assume:

1. The Star Wars Empire is not a bunch of idiots who constantly look like fools
2. The IoM may have to toy with adding heretical technologies to their mix in order to take on the SW Empire.

I would add in a third assumption: that there are no characters (Luke, Leia, Han Solo, etc) that would have plot armor that would give stormtroopers a debuff on their accuracy. and Palpatine not high on laughing gas causing him to catch the idiot ball.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

That would depend on what shielding is being used and what projectiles are being used. Ray shields would deflect and diffuse any energy projectile coming from an energy weapon: laser, plasma bolt, arc lightning. Particle shields can deflect any high velocity kinetic projectile (bullets, missiles, torpedos). So long as both shield generators are operating and have enough power supply, they can deflect and absorb WH40 weaponry. Provided that EMP weaponry to burn off the shield and still have enough energy to reach the shield generator to burn out it’s circuitry aren’t on the field.

Good observation and yes I agree.

I would add in a third assumption: that there are no characters (Luke, Leia, Han Solo, etc) that would have plot armor that would give stormtroopers a debuff on their accuracy. and Palpatine not high on laughing gas causing him to catch the idiot ball.

Also a good observation and that applies to both universes. The real question is who would win a fight between a master Jedi/Sith and a master librarian/adeptus mechanicus?

 

[aelf]

Everything.......

Spoiler :

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/3o23xy

Wow, a Culture GSV would dwarf the biggest stuff on that chart.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Wow, a Culture GSV would dwarf the biggest stuff on that chart.

Or the mothership from Independence Day. 600km by 550km

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Well The star wars jedi order, republic, confederacy and empire are all defeated and destroyed but not by brute force but due to manipulation, will of the force and other things that are a running theme of star wars.

Warhammer 40k Empire of the man is never really destroyed from my knowledge and last far longer than any major government organization do in star wars, so it is more successful.

In terms of military, it look very loopsided towards empire of the man who fought against all kinds of enemies who are far beyond anything the star wars organizations have to fight. Even like the jedi is not shown to be particular strong, like Battle of Geonsis they suffer heavy casulties to battle droids who are potrayed as being pretty weak and there are only about 10 000 jedi, that is similar to a space marine chapter who would probably destroy the jedi order in a pretty one sided battle.

The clone wars series follow like the best of the jedi order upcomming talents with characters like Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano and those still struggle against foes significantly weaker than space marines and even the jedi masters also struggle with maybe the exception of Yoda but even he has limits. Maybe if the whole jedi order was made out of talents like Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano and at their peak and not the 19-22 and 14-17 versions we see them in the clone wars, in such case the jedi order may be able beat a single space marine chapter. So if the jedi order need to be filled by the top 1% of the top 1% at their peak to have some good odds against a single space marine chapter and that is the best "military" units of each side, I get feeling it will look very bad for the star wars organizations when you actually compare the regular forces and navies.

Just the fact by the start of the clone wars two of the absolute strongest jedi was teenagers, one as young as 14 should give a telling what shape the jedi order actually was in.

40k understands itself well. Star Wars is at its best when it does the same, but it doesn't manage it as consistently.

Well I don't know much about 40k beyond various games I've played to it. But yes for star wars there are many inconsistencies, which is why I mostly use the movies and the rebels and clone wars series as those are relative consistent with each other and don't go into making the characters completely unbeatable and overpowered which would more or less ruin the stories and attachment to the characters. The clone wars series is probably the best star wars I've seen and it we see the 3 main characters/heroes Obi Wan, Anakin Skywalker and Ahsoka Tano as clearly flawed people who struggle in many ways and clearly very beatable.

Also a good observation and that applies to both universes. The real question is who would win a fight between a master Jedi/Sith and a master librarian/adeptus mechanicus?

Libarian/Adeptus mechanicus would most likely win by a very far margin based on my knowledge. Jedi masters have been defeated and killed by much weaker opponents. Sith probably do significantly better but those seems to be portrayed as significantly stronger combatants than jedi with only the absolute peak of the jedi being comparable but insignificant in numbers. The gap between the top combatants of the jedi and sith and the rest is potrayed to be huge and I guess maybe there was only like 10-15 top combatants active at any one time in star wars universe, maybe there are a lot more given the movies and such only cover limited set of characters.

1. The Star Wars Empire is not a bunch of idiots who constantly look like fools
2. The IoM may have to toy with adding heretical technologies to their mix in order to take on the SW Empire.

I would add in a third assumption: that there are no characters (Luke, Leia, Han Solo, etc) that would have plot armor that would give stormtroopers a debuff on their accuracy. and Palpatine not high on laughing gas causing him to catch the idiot ball.

As number 4 I would say the star wars main characters tend to be prodigies and very exceptional. In the clone wars, Ahsoka and Obi Wan are prodigies and Anakin is the Chosen one and also a prodigy. In Rebels, Erza, Hera and Sabine are prodigies and maybe the members are that as well. In The Star Wars movies, Luke, Leia, Rey, Han and probably Chewbacca are all prodigies. A bunch of other characters such as Yoda, Mace Windu, Darth Maul, Darth Sidious, Count Dooku, Padme, Boba Fett and so on seems to be prodigies.

The stormtroopers, pilots and so on are your normal people and thus at a significant disadvantage against the characters mentioned. Even the average jedi knight would be completely outclassed against many of those characters.

Plot armor is also a major factor (well in star wars you can simply say it is the will of the force that the characters survive to they have completed the objective) otherwise they probaby all be dead long before they actually died.