Star Wars

[Angst]

Yea they were popcorn films. They're very well done popcorn films, but they're popcorn films. The situating of The Hero's Journey/family into sci-fi isn't that woefully amazing, it's a mere situating of a good action flick (pick any action movie with a family theme) coated with something alien. And honestly, I probably didn't take this into consideration before, but Star Wars isn't scifi. It's as nonsci as scifi gets. It's certainly fiction in space, but it's just a retelling of the Hero's Journey of old European tradition, it's more in the fantasy camp. Again, everything new is in the visuals and sound. The whole project was woven around this combination - a main character with a name from the real world, the exposition delivered poignantly so it wasn't too alien and abrupt at once, and particularly the musical themes that were willingly composed as nonforeign as possible - no scifi bleeps but classical themes that you could easily get into. The whole deal was action flick in new clothes. The rest is just subtext - good subtext but good subtext is commonplace in a good action flick. And was immensely popular because of the coating, the groundbreaking effects that is. It's not high art. But there's nothing wrong with that. It's not you I'm arguing against, I know people that have this exact relation to Star Wars, rightfully claiming it's a classic, but for all the wrong reasons, referring all sorts of themes that were just that - themes. In a popcorn flick with cool coating.

People go in expecting an action flick in the Star Wars universe with lasers and ships and lightsaber battles. They also expect the music to belong to a certain genre (here, however, some "additive" behavior would've been nice, the prequels did, of all things, the themes right), they expect character arcs throughout the story unfolding, they expect good vs evil - many found the complex and ambigious nature of the prequel conflicts unfit in tone because of this reason; the prequels never really established the bad guy as they do in the beginning of IV and VII - displaying the evil people do evil things by overpowering something - and the prequels have been ridiculously criticized for this reason. They did something different, trying to outline a bad status quo, a bad civil war and it's bad outcome, was throughoutly damned by critics for it because the universe required a certain tone.

The subtext now? Well if we say Star Wars is about investigating these family relations. I do not think Kylo Ren is anywhere near Anakin's story. Just because the two characters could be argued to be "whiny" or "emo" or whatever the naysayers claim doesn't mean they're the same thing. Look over their stories, they're completely different, and explores other facets of family relations in spiritual conflict than the two other stories. I don't think it's anywhere near Darth Vader either. The relations are simply different, and that matters. And while the plot's overarching structure is very remniscent of IV/VI, it still adds different things and nuances them in different coatings. Look at the nuances, beyond the silly Starkiller rethread. There are plenty of character moments to enjoy.

EDIT: Made a bunch of clarifications.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

It felt disjointed and soulless to me.

I feel like that while the OT took its time and focused on what was nessearry for a simple but fun story, TFA had a list of things it had to go through and then just somehow tried to make a movie out of that. It lacked a sort of self-contained vision of what defines this movie and which it then can focus on. So that it can pull me into this vision. Something the OT managed well.

It is absolutely possible that later installments recapture this quality. But I am burned by TFA and I won't watch further SW in the cinema for the foreseeable future.

 

[Archbob]

It was more like "A New Hope" with a weak Sith lord.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

And see IMO it was only superficially like A New Hope.
A New Hope is a very stream-lined and straight-forward movie. There is not that much happening, if you look at the whole picture.
Princess is captured --> androids on planet --> luke stumbles on androids and teams up with ben --> they team up with han solo --> death star rescue --> death star attack. The end. Few characters, few settings, and a very straight line towards the conlusion of the story.

 

[sophie]

It also deals with some pretty interesting questions about faith and spirituality in a heavily mechanized, technologically advanced universe.


Which is why midichlorians sucked so hard.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I don't know. Being unfaithful when a Jedi moves an X-Wing with his mind seems like a pretty stupid idea.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Wrong. Guardians of the galaxy is a silly movie that doesn't take itself seriously. The Force Awakens is a freaking masterpiece.

Haht dahm ctd you're on-a-roll!! Where is the "LIKE" button?!

I disagree with the assessment of the original three Star Wars films as being merely popcorn films. Certainly, they can be enjoyed as such, but they also a nuanced examination of family and a coming of age story that was rarely seen in prior sci-fi films.

But the "nuanced coming of age story" was anything but... It was a straightforward tried-and-true, paint-by-numbers fairytale... Complete with the fairy godmother/Merlin who trains the farmboy commoner who is secretly the chosen-one to be a Knight, the swashbuckling Pirate, the Princess to be rescued... from the evil Wizard/ wicked Queen/wicked witch... I mean there's even a flying dragons battle at the end, and an Evil Castle that... crumbles to dust when evil is defeated...

To me that's why it all works... The themes have been to throuroughly vetted and tested for centuries... people just flat out love this kind of story. It isn't original... its a classic.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I just got from seeing it today.


One complaint I have is that lightsabers seem far less dangerous now than before. Strikes that in the original would have easily dismembered are causing only minor injuries.

Kylo Ren does go a bit overboard when it comes to attacking defenseless computer terminals. I feel like having him strike down some incompetent storm troopers would have fit better.


The Starkiller base absorbing all of the energy of a star before firing seems odd too. It seems like it should be able to use different fractions of a star depending on the targets, and like it would make much more sense to channel that energy more gradually rather than need to store all of it at once. It also still seems like it would make more sense to destroy a whole system by triggering its sun to go nova or making it collapse into a black hole rather than directing a separate beam at each planet.


The film clearly stated that the Storm Troopers were all taken from their families at birth to be raised by the First Order. They are not voluntary recruits any more than the clones were, and are every bit as indoctrinated. Given that Finn never knew his parents and never had a name much less a normal childhood, he seems far too psychologically normal or at least odd in unbelievable ways. He could have used a more gradual character development. They could have modeled him after North Korean defectors, who even after leaving the totalitarian regime under which they were raised remain very uncomfortable criticizing their old leaders. Finn was amusing, but he transitioned into humor too rapidly.


It seemed like R2D2 had too much of the map with him. I think it light have been more interested had Rey been carrying another piece all along without knowing it, perhaps thinking it was just some jewelry or something. They should also have presented a more obvious trigger for the droid awakening, like showing Rey walk by with the lightsaber hanging down right in front of his sensors.



Overall though, I love the film.

 

[Arwon]

As someone whose watched all the Star Wars movies many times and has also played tons of Star Wars video games, one thing I didn't understand was how the 'resistance' was against the New Order but the Republic wasn't. Or the republic was only 'secretly' supporting the new order.

How the hell did this 'new order' grow to begin with. The way the empire grew was well explained. At least, it was thanks to the prequels. But even before that, they were at least the original bad guys. The New Order stormtroopers apparently were not clones, from my understanding, and they recruited. Recruited from where? From Republic territories? Surely since the empire was defeated the Republic would try to stop them? Why is this ragtag 'resistance' movement able to accomplish more than a sturdy government like the Republic, which is supposed to have so much of the galaxy under its belt?

Other than that I loved it. The only two flaws of the movie were

1) lack of explanation as to the birth/growth of the New Order.

2) bigger death star. Really?

There's some books and comics that go into this in mroe detail than the opening crawl and a couple of throwaway lines but basically the Empire fragmented after Jedi and the New Republic and First Order are two parts of former Empire territory. The Resistance, as Hux says in his speech, are being supported/armed by the New Republic and are operating in New Order space.

 

[r16]

subscription post . Avoided everthing before the movie for spoiler things . So , is it correct that Jakku is defined as Anakin's point of origin ?

 

[CommonKnowledge]

Was Into Darkness as much of a rehash of Wrath of Khan as Force Awakens was of Star Wars?

I was going to try and summarise it but there's a pretty good comparison of the two here. The quick cut synopsis though is that Into Darkness is an insult for anyone who actually likes Star Trek and directed by a man (J J Abrams of course) who publicly said "I never got Star Trek." So that explains why the film is cynically made to pander to as many people as possible whilst appealing to nobody in particular like an incredibly bland restaurant trying to serve every type of cuisine whilst it all being botched and tasteless.

 

[aelf]

There's some books and comics that go into this in mroe detail than the opening crawl and a couple of throwaway lines but basically the Empire fragmented after Jedi and the New Republic and First Order are two parts of former Empire territory. The Resistance, as Hux says in his speech, are being supported/armed by the New Republic and are operating in New Order space.

I read also that the fanatical remnants of the Empire fled to the Outer Rim to rebuild and become the First Order, which actually makes less sense that what you're saying, since presumably the Outer Rim isn't a good power base for rearmament in such a massive way.

Also, the movie states outright that the Resistance is reliant on the New Republic fleet, which is why they could only send small starfighters against Starkiller Base after the destruction of the Hosnian System. The mind-boggling thing is how little the New Republic and its fleet has been doing to allow a massively improved planetary killer to be built without their knowledge by a faction that came out of the Outer Rim.

 

[Cheetah]

I mostly liked the film, but I had high expectations, so were somewhat let down...

1. Most of the bad guys seemed far too whiny and neurotic. Even when they were winning, they ran around stressing as if they couldn't find a toilet fast enough.

2. If Phasma is supposed to be a major bad guy...

Who the hell is this anonymous guy!?

3. The rebels still looked like rebels, even when they were supported by a real, powerful government.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The mind-boggling thing is how little the New Republic and its fleet has been doing to allow a massively improved planetary killer to be built without their knowledge by a faction that came out of the Outer Rim.

Yeah... I was wondering something similar while watching a documentary on the DPRK last night... How could a little podunk state like that get nuclear weapons right under the nose of the all-knowing, all-powerful United States?? Didn't we know about it? Why didn't we stop them?!? And unlike in Star Wars, we're on the same planet as them! I mean... Its mind boggling!

 

[aelf]

Yeah... I was wondering something similar while watching a documentary on the DPRK last night... How could a little podunk state like that get nuclear weapons right under the nose of the all-knowing, all-powerful United States?? Didn't we know about it? Why didn't we stop them?!? And unlike in Star Wars, we're on the same planet as them! I mean... Its mind boggling!

Huh, DPRK's nuclear programme was known a long time ago. And it's not like its nuclear device is something that is more powerful than anything that has ever been seen with technology that is way beyond our understanding, with which it now has an overwhelming strategic advantage against the West. I don't think the two are comparable.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Saw it yesterday and thought... what of hell is this? The same again? And dont mean the same style as the first ones which would have been nice, it was the same bloody story again but much weaker. There are so many silly details, characters are so weak, plot is so absurd... it is like they didnt have a single new idea and decided to remake episode IV to please the fan (which is exactly that happened actually). New special effects are rock solid though.

Spoiler :

The only good character was Solo who had the decency to die quickly before getting further involved in this nonsense

In short, didnt like it obviously, even less that the second trilogy. I will watch the next ones though...

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sorry for bringing up DPRK... Let's talk about Star Wars

Huh, DPRK's nuclear programme was known a long time ago.

So even if Republic knew about it they wouldn't have been able to stop it... exactly my point.

And it's not like its nuclear device is something that is more powerful than anything that has ever been seen with technology that is way beyond our understanding

Exactly right... so it would be even more difficult (impossible) for the Republic to "know about" a weapon that uses technology that is way beyond anything they've ever seen, or could possibly understand or could have ever conceived of, right? "Starkiller" is an entirely new thing, right? So again you've just made my point.... On another note... the term "Starkiller" is a bit of an easter egg isn't it? Which makes the complaints about the Starkiller base it a little puzzling. It's total fanservice... From "Wookiepedia":

Annikin Starkiller was the proposed name for the lead character in the what would become Episode IV and appeared in the rough draft. He would have played a similar role as Luke Skywalker in A New Hope, although in his cockiness and brashness he also resembles Han Solo. ... During the filming of Episode IV Luke's surname was changed from Starkiller to Skywalker, his Jedi byname in the second draft.

I'm sure somebody pointed out during the development stage, that the Death Star was not a star-killer per say, but a planet-killer, so if they were going to call the new thing "Starkiller" it might be cool to make it actually, like... kill stars. So they came up with the star-draining concept.

 

[aelf]

Sorry for bringing up DPRK... Let's talk about Star Wars So even if Republic knew about it they wouldn't have been able to stop it... exactly my point.

Pretty sure that the movie was clear on the fact that they had no idea, which brings me to the next point...

Exactly right... so it would be even more difficult (impossible) for the Republic to "know about" a weapon that uses technology that is way beyond anything they've ever seen, or could possibly understand or could have ever conceived of, right?

Not being able to understand a technology doesn't not being able to know about its existence. That's ridiculous. I mean, there is even more than one precedence of planet killers.

I don't think the development and construction of such a weapon as Starkiller Base could possibly escape notice, assuming the New Republic isn't completely confined to one small part of the galaxy. Granted the Americans seemed to have pretty much pulled it off with the Manhattan Project, but the scale we're talking about is vastly different. This thing is much much bigger than even the second Death Star.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Not being able to understand a technology doesn't not being able to know about its existence. That's ridiculous. I mean, there is even more than one precedence of planet killers.

I don't think the development and construction of such a weapon as Starkiller Base could possibly escape notice, assuming the New Republic isn't completely confined to one small part of the galaxy. Granted the Americans seemed to have pretty much pulled it off with the Manhattan Project, but the scale we're talking about is vastly different. This thing is much much bigger than even the second Death Star.

This argument is self-contradictory. On the one hand you say "No way First Order could have bulit Starkiller without Republic knowing" but then you cite an an actual historical example where the US created a heretofore unheard of Doomweapon on the same planet as the enemy and was still able to pull off the suprise attack.

The galaxy is vast..."mind-bogglingly" so... I just don't have any trouble whatsoever imagining that you could go off in some corner of the galaxy and do stuff without your enemies knowing about it... Not to mention that the weapon was in a sense "hidden" inside the planet/moon. Its also conceivable that the Republic knew they were building a base on some moon but they didn't know it was intended to be another Death Star... But TBH I think the "they had no idea" explanation is more plausible.

 

[Angst]

One complaint I have is that lightsabers seem far less dangerous now than before. Strikes that in the original would have easily dismembered are causing only minor injuries.

First of all, I liked your post.

Personally I find that the way they handled the lightsabers in the new movie was very close to the vision of the original trilogy, I found it handled quite well overall. The choreographed dancing of the prequels had no force behind the swings, in order to perform the moves as quickly as they do there you have to control the force of the swung object, and it could indeed be felt, the fighting was so light. I don't mind choreography per se but there was so much weight, force and emotion behind the original trilogy's lightsaber battles in Episodes V-VI, and I found it to feel the same way in TFA, the swings felt heavy and dangerous. Also using the hilt (isn't that the English word for it?) on Finn was a great "oh poop!" moment.