Started another Deity game. Anybody want to play along or give advice?

[nate46]

I still need to get used to it and play around with the settings, haha. Right now its information overload at end of turn. I should probably start filtering out stuff that i don't care about... the gold information is nice.

would be nicer if the AI's would actually plot first before declaring war on me this game...

 

[georgjorge]

Ok, taking a look at the save...

Spoiler :

You seem to know the basics very well, with the possible exception of Great People generation (and not settling on wet Rice ). It's a common tactic NOT to build Libraries in many cities but to have only two or three cities grow to happy cap on farms and special resources before Philosophy, then switch to Caste + Pacifism as soon as you have Philosophy and generate a few Great Scientists this way (possibly during a Golden Age as well). York and Bulgare would have been well suited for that. Slavery is of course the best civic overall but in this phase of the game - if you go for Liberalism - Caste is very strong.

A couple of minor points:

You have a bit too few Workers, but you probably already know that.

Getting a Monastery in London is a good thing as its bonus also gets multiplied by the 50% from Bureaucracy (and it's more hammer-efficient than a University).

Kyrus seems most likely to beat you to Liberalism (advanced + Great Lighthouse) so put all your espionage points on him to see what he techs.

You are really unlucky with the war declarations on you this game. First Sury at +8 and now Charlemagne - I know it IS possible for an AI to declare while being in another war, but the chance for it is rather low.

Bulbing Chemistry CAN work under the right circumstances, those being that you a) partly bulb Liberalism before you get Machinery b) have Printing Press (which some AIs research quite soon so you might be able to trade for it). But this game you won't have enough Great People soon enough for that.

 

[nate46]

@georgejorg

Spoiler :

I still think settling on the wet rice is the clear best move here! I don't think you guys are valuing the extra 1 food in cap square enough ... or the advantage that comes from being able to skip agriculture and go straight for bronze... Esp on marathon when the barbs are just absurdly bad.

settle on Rice gives me worker 6 turns sooner, and then i can get a 17 turn growth without even improving any food tiles.

If i settle in place, it'll take 14 turns just to improve the rice, after which i'll be at 42/66 growth, and then i'll need 5 more at +5f/t. So 19 turn growth, in total, even rushing agriculture. So the rice saves 8 turns immediately (2 from growth, 6 from worker)...but thats not even the biggest advantage...

settling on the rice allows me to immediately tech bronze working for chops, while still working two very strong tiles (a grass hill mine is just as good as wet rice for settler gen with imp).

By getting bronze working ~20 turns sooner, i can chop two extra forests. The worker is coming 6 turns sooner and i don't have to use 15 worker turns on the rice, so these chops are more than free. This means i not only get my settler out a few turns early, i also get a 2nd worker basically at around turn 80 (depending on how many warriors i build... i built 2 this game). And my cap is still 1 hammer/turn more productive (at size 2) when making settlers than if i had settled in place. I'm also getting wheel and pottery ~20 turns faster too, and math sooner too, which (in this game) allowed me to chop my 6th settler and 5th worker faster and more efficiently.

the lack of food in cap does not really become relevant until at least turn 120 or so when I'm ready to consider growing it out past size 2. by then i'll have had about 40 extra worker turns (from the 2nd worker)... since the barbs were so bad, i used those worker turns to chop a bunch of axemen...

honestly with the barbs this bad, i think this map is unplayable if you don't settle on the rice... but even if the barbs weren't so bad, i still could have used those chops for an extra worker and settler. and that's in addition to the ~5 turns saved in 2nd city and the ~10 turns saved in capital.

in the long term---i'm getting my cottages out sooner, and i have more citizens available total to work cottages, so i'm going to end up with quite a lot more villages/towns by the mid-game than i could possibly have if i had settled in place--due to the extra chops and faster workers/settlers. So even if my cap is stunted in growth slightly and i'm behind on great people points, i'm making up for it mid game in pure beakers per turn.

 

[georgjorge]

I don't play Marathon so maybe I don't fully understand the turn numbers you gave me. But for the sake of discussion:

Yes, settling on the Rice and teching Bronze Working first is very strong for immediate gains. You get your second Worker out faster so you get Axemen and your first Settler faster.

I can't really comment on whether the fast Axemen are really needed here. I very often get by even without Axemen on Deity but Marathon/Huge really favors lots of Barbs. Myself, I have yet to encounter a map which doesn't even allow you to tech Agriculture before Bronze Working and still survive the barbs.

However, these gains you mentioned are VERY short-term compared to pumping out Axemen/Workers/Settlers at size two with an improved wet Rice. They would be most important when either being blocked in to the extreme (so you have to get your second and third cities very fast) or when going for an early rush (Axemen, Chariots). Neither is the case here.

As for the disadvantages of settling on the Rice - it suffices to say that it's the only real source of food in the capital, and at the point of your latest save London hasn't nearly reached it's happy cap and is working two grassland farms which could have been cottages instead (besides not working the cottages from nearby cities).

I'm also getting wheel and pottery ~20 turns faster too, and math sooner too, which (in this game) allowed me to chop my 6th settler and 5th worker faster and more efficiently.

This would only be true if getting Mathematics before Agriculture would be a good move. It may be in one map out of ten, but it generally isn't because there always is some Corn, Wheat or Rice around in one of your next cities. Also don't forget Agriculture gives a discount on Pottery.

I really enjoy this discussion, as sometimes these out-of-the-box strategies give me new ideas for my own games!

 

[nate46]

However, these gains you mentioned are VERY short-term compared to pumping out Axemen/Workers/Settlers at size two with an improved wet Rice.

No, this is still slower...

wet rice = 5f. Gold = 3h. city square = 1h, 2f.
-4 food to eat. +2 production from imperialistic. Total: 9h/t when producing settlers, or 7 h/t when producing workers.

compared to:

grass hill mine = 3h 1f. Gold = 3h. city square 3f 1h.
-4 food to eat. +3 production from imperialistic. total: 10h/t when producing settlers. Or 7h/t when producing workers.

Its still makes a better settler/worker factory until i grow it out to size 3, which i didn't bother doing this game for a long time...

 

[georgjorge]

VERY interesting, Imperialistic really changes things.

With such an understanding of the game, why do you need help winning Deity ?

 

[nate46]

Also don't forget Agriculture gives a discount on Pottery.

this is worth less than you'd think on most maps, considering how much tech pottery gives you from cottages.

On this map i had gold so it isn't as much of an issue, but with the imperialistic settler spam style of play, you go usually totally broke if you don't get pottery asap. If you're settler spamming early, its not worth it to wait for agriculture on victoria in most cases--you need a source of commerce or you go broke. I've done tests on this with a lot of different maps, replaying with different strategies. A lot of maps its actually best to go pottery then agriculture immediately after pottery -- It looks stupid but its actually the fastest way to develop victoria...

on most maps you'll be at +5 beakers/turn for what seems like forever if you go agriculture + BW before pottery on an imperialistic civ -- assuming you're chopping settlers as fast as you should be. The fourth city is really expensive, it needs to work a cottage ASAP to pay for itself. It really stunts your research to not go pottery. Once you get pottery though you can run a cottage in every city to pay for your expansion, and still have more hammers just by virtue of having so many cities and so many forests to chop. By skipping agri, you also get the wheel faster for trade connections (also not necessary on this particular map... there's a lot of rivers here)

From my tests... even if you have a wet corn in your cap, its a wash whether to even improve it before you get pottery. If you have wet corn and gems, agriculture first has the advantage. But with anything less than a wet corn, pottery first leads to faster development, due to the ability to expand to four cities without going broke.

edit: of course, these tests were done on immortal... deity is hard to test on since i usually die to barbs no matter what i do, haha. I should really stop playing marathon.

 

[nate46]

With such an understanding of the game, why do you need help winning Deity ?

because they declare war on me and i die, LOL. Well, that and the barbs...

I might actually win this game because i'm lucky since caesar has been so helpful in blocking not one but two different warmongers from being able to even get to me.... but i've been cheating with reloads anyway and most games i don't get this lucky, haha.

 

[georgjorge]

this is worth less than you'd think on most maps, considering how much tech pottery gives you from cottages.

On this map i had gold so it isn't as much of an issue, but with the imperialistic settler spam style of play, you go usually totally broke if you don't get pottery asap. If you're settler spamming early, its not worth it to wait for agriculture on victoria in most cases--you need a source of commerce or you go broke. I've done tests on this with a lot of different maps, replaying with different strategies. A lot of maps its actually best to go pottery then agriculture immediately after pottery -- It looks stupid but its actually the fastest way to develop victoria...

on most maps you'll be at +5 beakers/turn for what seems like forever if you go agriculture + BW before pottery on an imperialistic civ -- assuming you're chopping settlers as fast as you should be. The fourth city is really expensive, it needs to work a cottage ASAP to pay for itself. It really stunts your research to not go pottery. Once you get pottery though you can run a cottage in every city to pay for your expansion, and still have more hammers just by virtue of having so many cities and so many forests to chop. By skipping agri, you also get the wheel faster for trade connections (also not necessary on this particular map... there's a lot of rivers here)

From my tests... even if you have a wet corn in your cap, its a wash whether to even improve it before you get pottery. If you have wet corn and gems, agriculture first has the advantage. But with anything less than a wet corn, pottery first leads to faster development, due to the ability to expand to four cities without going broke.

True, spamming Settlers costs a lot of maintenance early. The question is whether you always want to spam three Settlers as fast as possible, and the map settings play a lot into this decision. Often enough you can block AIs off for quite some time just by making two Settlers.

I'm VERY sure that with wet Corn you ALWAYS want Agriculture first. If you go Bronze Working second, you can do 2-pop-whips which are as powerful as chopping and are not viable without a real food source.

Then there's the question of early cottages. If you spam Settlers and immediately start working cottages in those new cities - which you need early Pottery for - they will just about pay for themselves in time but contribute nothing to your early production. All your production comes from your capital, mostly in the form of chopping and mines. Sometimes there are enough forests for this, but often enough there aren't. And when your initial production/commerce is not enough anymore and you want to grow it will take a long time.

I'm definitely intrigued by that strategy and will try it out in one of my games. But I don't think it is better in all (or even that many) cases.

Enough of this...I want to see more of your game being played

 

[nate46]

I'm VERY sure that with wet Corn you ALWAYS want Agriculture first.

you'd think so before testing maps with different strats, but imper is pretty weird. Victoria's financial trait also favors faster cottages.

If you spam Settlers and immediately start working cottages in those new cities - which you need early Pottery for - they will just about pay for themselves in time but contribute nothing to your early production.

once they grow once, they'll be worth more than you pay for them, since you can work either a second cottage or whip them or work a mine. also, more cities = more forests to chop.

Enough of this...I want to see more of your game being played

unfortunately i won't have any time to play today, got stuff to do. Will be back at it on sunday probably.