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Starting Luxuries Tier List

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ShadedSkies, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    Could this not be exploited? pre-chop everything before getting the tech then finish for huge production boost.
     
  2. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I think your worker/s have better to do in that early stage than chopping forests 99% without any impact for your cities.
     
  3. Tantro

    Tantro Chieftain

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    So there's a few different iterations floating around.

    1. Moving chop forest to mining for easier access.
    2. Combining chop forest/jungle to starting tech, with the addition of adding hammers at bronze working.
    3. Combining chop forest/jungle and move it to calendar tech with plantations.

    Let me know if I forgot anything.

    Option one seems like a band aid solution while keeping the chop forest at the lower side of the tech tree, but with bronze working losing slight appeal.

    Option two. Combining chop at starting tech opens up some minor decision making early game (would you prepare for plantation or remove trees at river tile for farms?). It will also give something to cities without plantations after unlocking bronze working. I think this is the most interesting choice, and it adds back some of the power lost from earlier versions without the problem of founding cities getting a huge production boost. It also keeps the lower side of the tech tree as the go to choice for production early game.

    Option three addresses the problem of awkward forest chop straight up. There is little room for exploitation or compounding issues. It keeps the system more or less as is, but the lower side of the tech tree loses slight appeal. An alternative could be to combine chop forest/jungle at one of the techs leading up to calendar. This is the 'streamlined' solution which would let you prepare the land for plantations later on.

    Once one of these solutions are tested and implemented we could look closer at balancing the luxury resources.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I really don't like option 2. The AI starting workers are probably going to clear forests and then discover deer on that tile. I'll accept option 3 as better than the current, but really option 1 does the job in a much simpler way. I don't see how its a band-aid, you would have to research different techs on different starting positions. That's the whole point of different starting positions.
    The compounding issue would be that calendar is becoming such an important tech and the bottom of the tree is ignored.

    Chopping forests does a lot other than just connect plantations. Mining luxuries, iron, and quarry luxuries both appear in forest or jungle on commonly played maps. You also might want to chop for a farm, a mine, or a unique improvement like a Moai. Calendar is really out the way in those situations and mning is a cheap tech. I don't think I should be able to ignore the bottom of the tech tree as often as I do. If archers weren't so dominate you'd feel pressure to get the melee units from the bottom anyways, so mining wouldn't feel like wasted science (this is the core problem IMO).

    Then there is the production boost, which is a feature of the game. I don't understand the exploit paranoia. What build order are doing to chop forests for the Pyramids exactly? Worker first and pray the barbarians leave you alone? VP already weakens chopping by increasing the time to chop forests
     
  5. Tantro

    Tantro Chieftain

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    CrazyG is knowledgeable and makes some great points as to why option 1 should be seriously considered. The AI issue in option 2 seems like a deal breaker. There's a lot of moving parts in VP, but I'm glad we're moving forward with this discussion.
     
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  6. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    Maybe not so much an exploit, but with yields increased above what they are currently, and with pre-chopping it could potentially be gamey.
     
  7. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    How would be this:
    Chopping jungle is placed on hunting/road
    Chopping forest is placed on mining
    Bronze working reduce chopping by 2 turns and increase the gained yields by 50%
    (base chopping is adjusted to end with current values after bronze working bonus)
     
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  8. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    It might be useful to create a seperate thread for this discussion actually, now that we're getting into the details. It might be good to start by restating our objective so that we're all on the same page. And having this discussion under it's own header would help people who are interested to find the discussion and join in (or just follow what we're talking about).

    That way we can still look at the balance of luxuries that don't require chopping here, like maratime, mining, and flat-land resources. We had some good ideas like moving yields from bank to custom house and grocer to market (and/or other places). Also some proposals for adjusting maratime resources.

    On that subject, what do people think of tobacco getting a buff from Herbalist rather than Market? Market makes sense in terms of trading resources of course. The market is a pretty strong building already though, particularly in the ancient era, and I feel like Herbalists could use more love. The other thing this would do is put benefits to tobacco on the Iroquois Longhouse, which fits with their traditions (if I understand correctly). Not super against tobacco being improved by the market, just thought this might be an interesting alternative.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  9. andersw

    andersw King

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    For wide play Grocer are important (thanks to the flat happiness and food), having to crank in guilds/customs house is very suboptimal both tech and building wise.
    I'd rather that the bonuses stayed on Grocer or if moved to something earlier than customs house.

    Regarding the sea resources, I find whales and coral is usally so spread out on pangea that its usually not possible to get early monopoly of these.
    On what map types are these normally a balance issue?
    (I've had some rare game with whale monopoly as Denmark)
     
  10. MarvelOfRain

    MarvelOfRain Chieftain

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    I had even worst cases then this - on a regular Pangea map, I had only 1 Whale on the whole map. It was down in tundra in a city-state and anyone with statecraft had a chance to get the bonus (simular thing happened on other map scripts as well - 1-2 whales).

    Outside of those extremes, I second this. I don't think I had any regular maritime monopolies in last couple of months (Pangea, Continets and even on Communitas). They are always either super spread out or have only couple copies on the entire map.
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This thread is about getting the resource as your starting regional luxury, on Pangea and most maps you always have one. It isn't referring to getting the resource monopoly via a city state. It is possible to get a fishing resource monopoly on Pangea, and you should be able to connect 5 copies (enough for your monopoly) with 2 cities, sometimes 3 cities. I've had a start like that many times on Pangea.
     
  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Sure. I think it's worth noting that sometimes that doesn't happen though. I've had games where I have about 40% of my starting luxury nearby and the rest if is closer to other civs along the coast. I think in particular with smaller maps things are more concentrated so your point about 2 or 3 cities makes sense, but on larger maps it can be more effort to secure a monopoly.

    Not that I think this is a major issue, just that it puts maratime luxuries in the context that while they are very strong there can sometimes be drawbacks as well (another one I find is the risk of barbarian galley pillaging my work boats because I can build triremes to defend them).
     
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I thought barbs didn't pillage work boats, as a feature from Vanilla (I'm guessing its to be merciful).
     
  14. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Maybe it's been updated, but I've had it happen in the past. Would love if that were the case!

    (Perhaps I'm confusing with the AI pillaging my boats in early wars, like Carthage? I just remember finding it very frustrating not being to defend my territory and my work boats properly.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  15. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Played yesterday a game and several intruding barb ships didn't pillaged my boats. I think CrazyG's information is true and I really appreciate this.
     
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  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Sometimes 6 barbarians raid your capital on turn 10, sometimes the rest of your luxuries are on the other side of mountains. Not every start will be balanced, that's the point of civ!

    A typical start on a standard size is their are about 8 copies of your luxury that will be grouped somewhat geographically close to each other. Your luxury can be anything discussed in this thread, except marble (whales starts exist on Pangea, I'm 100% sure).
    For the monopoly, hopefully you can get 3 copies in your capital, and two copies in another city, to reach 5 and get a quick monopoly. This is very powerful on coral, pearls, silver, wine, incense, citrus, cocoa, cinnamon and tobacco. The other monopolies benefit less so starting this way isn't as great (though still useful).
    On huge map size, its hopefully 3 cities, sometimes 4 are need.
    On small, its usually two.
    Legendary start usually increases the total quantity of luxuries by 1 which can change the above map. Strategic balance won't affect it. Sparse resources will cause all sorts of mayhem with monopolies.
    All the above are generally true for Continents, Pangea, and Oval, which are by the far the most commonly played maps. Fractal is similar to this but with more oceans invovled. Occasionally your luxuries start grouped far away from you, usually because there are mountains or an ocean in between you. But that's really rare, like 1% of games at most.

    I've played a lot of VP, this is what you can normally expect on the commonly played maps. Most toher maps follow it pretty closely as well. Yes sometimes it doesn't happen (but if you play one of these map scripts and don't get a regional, really its a bug). We have to look at what's common when balancing, this is what's common with resources.
     
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  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I've played about 2,500 hours of VP myself (as a conservative estimate) so I'd say I have a fair idea of what a typical map or game looks like. You probably have more experience on diverse map types and speeds because I'm unusual in that respect. But I'd argue I may have more relevant experience playing at the difficulty levels (and the degree of challenge) most people are going to encounter playing this mod (I started at Warlord and have played games across difficulties up to Emperor).
    Barbarians will only enter your borders on turn 10 if you are playing very high difficulties, and that's intentional. At the level I play, you have until turn 20 which allows you to always have the opportunity to present some kind of defense. And while it is possible for luxuries to spawn on the other side of a mountain chain that's extremely unlikely to happen on standard settings (I've seen it in maybe 2 or 3 games). Compared to that maps with maratime luxiries spread along the coast are relatively common. I'm not saying that it's game-breaking nor am I demanding things to be changed. I am simply making the point that it happens, and often enough to be considered a facet of how those luxuries play.
    The vast majority of times I find 2 copies of my monopoly resource near my capital, and one non-monopoly resource.
    Normally I wouldn't argue about these kind of details, but the majority of my experience is on the huge map setting and I can say that it's relatively common to need more than 3 cities to get a monopoly. Particularly is you are considering other factors like access to strategic resources and settling in locations that discourage or prevent the AI from forward settling you, which personally is my priority. I can always settle the spots they won't try to steal from me later. You're not wrong that on standard games and settings getting a monopoly isn't a big deal. But I'm not the only one to have noted that maratime monopolies can be more dificult to unlock, and I think everyone's experience is relevant here. Again, I'm not calling for it to be changed, but I don't think that making such a statement is unfair.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'm under the impression that resources appear in the same places regardless of difficulty.

    You can connect a monopoly with 2 or 3 cities most of the time on standard, 3 or 4 on huge. Look at your last huge map. CAN you get 6 copies in 3 cities? Most of the time you CAN. Maybe you didn't, and maybe that was the better choice. But if you aren't at least thinking about how to get your monopoly connected super quickly on a resource like wine, you are missing an opportunity for a powerful and fun opening. Now, if you choose not to, because you wanted to forward settle a neighbor, get a natural wonder, etc., that's your decision, and it could be a good decision. That doesn't refute that you COULD have gotten the monopoly with fewer cities.

    Maritime luxuries can usually be connected faster, this is a fact. Noting the opposite won't make it less true. I got it on turn 43 my last attempt, and I just rolled till I got coral, got another one on turn 46. If you choose to just not take my word, I'll roll till I get a fishing luxury, do it again, and take pictures. This forum is really overestimating the downside to fishing boats, God of the Sea can more than compensate you in production. Can you show me a land monopoly connected with 5 copies before turn 50? It's really uncommon. If you take tradition or authority you usually can't even finish pottery + calendar/construction by turn 40 without science from ruins, that's more than half the monopolies on land.

    Now if you are researching animal husbandry and bronze working, settling near strategics instead of your luxuries, you probably aren't getting fishing boats connected very quickly (which doesn't mean you can't, just that you choose not to).
     
  19. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Prince

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    I'm shocked that people are saying that Dyes are one of the weaker resources. That 3c per resource with amphitheatres is very strong. Personally I find the science resources a little too strong. Players who have Lapiz or Coffee tend to snowball really hard and grab all the early wonders.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    They do now.

    G
     
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