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Starting Luxuries Tier List

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ShadedSkies, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    In other news, here's the current tech tree changes I've made for resources:
    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-1-29_10-24-49.png


    You'll notice that bronze and iron working have new icons...that's for the production from chopping. So you can chop at Calendar/Mining, BUT you won't receive any production unless you have Bronze/Iron working. I upped the base production from chopping for both to match at 40 production, so the investment is a bit more of a payoff now.
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'd prefer them not pillaging work boats.

    Barbarians unlock naval units at fishing, a long time before major civs do, you have no defense available.
     
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  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    They're still time-gated. And they don't unlock boats until 60% of all civs have fishing.

    G
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't think you should add the pillaging unless you move their boats back to 60% of having sailing. Its going to feel awful when you can't build ships and barbs pillage 300 gold of work boats.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Should be sailing, actually, for the barb galley. I forgot it was a UU for barbs. :X
     
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  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  7. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

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    I like this, but I'm a bit confused - the tooltip says the production from chopping increases by 50% with Bronze working, but you say that you'll get no production from chopping unless you have Bronze working?
     
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  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Right. So you'll get 50% of 40 at bronze, additional 50% at iron.

    G
     
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  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    20/40; chopping value goes down based on ring distance from city, vanilla thing IIRC.

    G
     
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  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Isn't that a slight nerf then? Right now chopping gives up to 30:c5production: at bronze. If the chopping is going to get detached with a step up in classical, then it should be at least 30/60, no?
     
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  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think it is a wash given the earlier access. The value of the chop is subsidiary to the tile it reveals for an improvement.
     
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  12. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

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    Ok, but the wording is somewhat misleading, especially for newer players, because an increase of 50% from 0 is still zero?
     
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yeah, should it simply say (chopping now provides 20 hammers) or something like that. Also if we are now making prod from chopping a benefit for certain techs I say remove the crazy distance penalties, and just give them the hammers. If its 20, its 20....no matter what.
     
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  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    As you say, the instant :c5production:boost is secondary to the resource, if there is one beneath it. As a result, I worry that this makes bronze even less desireable as a tech. A turn spent researching bronze is a turn not spent researching a tech with more necessary bonuses. Civs with a spear replacement feel punished.
     
  15. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    In terms of consistency and flavor i'm digging this but in terms of gameplay i don't think this is a good idea tbh.
    It helps easier connection of forest plantation luxuries but it actually hurts jungle plantation start and Goddess of springtime into Temple of Artemis a lot; these starts are really production light and usually dependent on the push from the free herbalist but without the :c5production: from chopping jungles it would be really hard to get the Temple in time.
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    On the other hand, this gives me hope. If it's such a problem having no production outside of the bottom techs then maybe things are better then before and bronze is more useful
     
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  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    OK, let me put this in context. I play with a jungle start bias. Getting a monopoly quickly is just not going to happen. At least now I understand where you are coming from lol. Yes, you very often can get 6 luxuries in 3 cities, and coastal resources are much quicker to improve is you tech that way.
    Sure, but I could just as equally say that fishing is a tech placed in an annoying location that takes me away from other things that I usually want to tech to (like Military Theory, Calender, and Mathematics). Or that while pearls provide excellent yield when improved (especially after a monopoly) their intial yields really aren't that great.
    It's not about what the facts are, it's about how you are presenting them. I was never trying to disprove you, I am simply sharing my experience to compliment yours and give a more complete picture. It's not all bad, but it's not all good either. I don't need your experiences to be invalid in order for mine to be valid. I felt that's what you were trying to do though, by playing the 'I have lots of experience' card (why else would you pull that out?). We can both be correct. I'm very OK with that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  18. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I agree. Temple of Artemis is the main way that I get good returns on jungle starts. Playing Iroquois in the jungle is pretty nice too though!
    To be clear, if I have researched Calender and but not Bronze Working yet, I get zero hammers? Seems like that's clearly a nerf for jungle starts.

    Granted I like that Iron Working now has something to distinguish it, gives me a big reason to tech there even as a peaceful civ (which I very rarely did previously).
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    If you play only a fraction of all starting positions, I don't see how your own experience provides a more complete picture. It provides a really biased point of view., especially if you refuse to even try rushing a monopoly quickly.

    With that said, you're still wrong, I've successfully rushed monopolies on jungle cocoa and citrus. The OP specifically refers to the early monopoly for these resources as being strong. It can happen quickly if you try, in fact the +2 culture and science monopolies were moved to jungle plantations specifically to compensate the slower start in jungle.

    This is a balance discussion, the option to rush them should be part of the discussion. "But I don't rush them" isn't a rebuttal. You SHOULD at least try rushing them. Right now you are essentially arguing about the strength of a strategy you have not and (apparently) will not try.
     
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  20. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Please don't patronize me. Just because I play a certain way now doesn't mean I'd done exactly the same thing over and over again. I choose these setting because I have tried various options and this is what I find the most fun.
    Why do you still think I'm trying to rebutt you? This is a discussion, not a brawl. I am simply presenting a different perspective.
    See my previous point. I've been there and didn't enjoy it. I play differently to you. That doesn't mean I'm not aware of my options. I used to prefer plains or grassland starts, which is why I like perfume (and horses) so much. Coastal starts are also fun because the Great Lighthouse is exceptional, and Coral provides some delicious yields. Tundra, Snow, and Desert are surprisingly useable if you have a UI (like the Encampment) you can build on them, and the Kasbah is hecking incredible on top of a forest.

    I think we've gotten well and truly away from the point of the discussion though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020

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