Starting Luxuries Tier List

[Omen of Peace]

With the change, jungle can pre-chopped so jungle resource monopolies can be brought online earlier.
That compensates for at least some of the loss in production from chopping.

Also, resources like Cocoa or Citrus give the best starting tiles...

I don't see an issue there on paper. But we'll playtest and see.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

With the change, jungle can pre-chopped so jungle resource monopolies can be brought online earlier.
That compensates for at least some of the loss in production from chopping.

Also, resources like Cocoa or Citrus give the best starting tiles...

I don't see an issue there on paper. But we'll playtest and see.

Sorry, you are wrong. Chopping jungle is still on calender.
You would still have to research calender, till you can chop jungles with the difference, that you didnt get any hammer anymore.
Chopping forest can be done earlier, but without hammers, even if you research bronze working, you would gain less hammers for chopping forests.

This solution is worse for everyone. And I dont know why beeing able to chop forests earlier have to be punished by such result.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the only way bronze working becomes a more appealing tech is if spearmen become more important relative to archers. Also swordsmen relative to comp bows.

 

[azum4roll]

I like the proposed idea, but Jungle Chopping should be moved to either Trapping or The Wheel instead of Calendar.

Also now that we're talking about jungle/forest balance, anyone knows why most maps don't have jungles on grassland? Too good in vanilla? Since the only map I've observed with jungles on grassland (Communitas) has them nerfed to 2f instead of 3f.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I like the proposed idea, but Jungle Chopping should be moved to either Trapping or The Wheel instead of Calendar.

Also now that we're talking about jungle/forest balance, anyone knows why most maps don't have jungles on grassland? Too good in vanilla? Since the only map I've observed with jungles on grassland (Communitas) has them nerfed to 2f instead of 3f.

I dunno. I think it's something from vanilla Civ.

Maybe it's supposed to represent how cutting down jungle doesn't give you very good farmland. I love grassland myself though, would love to see some of it under jungle.

 

[azum4roll]

I dunno. I think it's something from vanilla Civ.

Maybe it's supposed to represent how cutting down jungle doesn't give you very good farmland. I love grassland myself though, would love to see some of it under jungle.

Try Communitu_79a v1.14 then. Abundant resources if you don't want to see something like 40 coal in the whole map.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I like the proposed idea, but Jungle Chopping should be moved to either Trapping or The Wheel instead of Calendar.

Jungles/forests are 3 yield tiles while every other luxury spot, except incense on flood plains are only 2 yield tiles.
I think, gaining 1 more hammer till you have improved the tile and additional hammers for cutting it is a fair compensation for the need for 3 techs and chopping time.

Also now that we're talking about jungle/forest balance, anyone knows why most maps don't have jungles on grassland? Too good in vanilla? Since the only map I've observed with jungles on grassland (Communitas) has them nerfed to 2f instead of 3f.

I would like to see jungles with 3 food, maybe after some tech before logging camps to make them more different and less inferior to forests.

 

[azum4roll]

I would like to see jungles with 3 food, maybe after some tech before logging camps to make them more different and less inferior to forests.

Spoiler Communitu_79a has them :

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Wouldn't you just have Jungle spawn on Grassland for 3 Food?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Wouldn't you just have Jungle spawn on Grassland for 3 Food?

But then you would have 3 food 1 hammer tiles right from the start. Or? That's too strong.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

But then you would have 3 food 1 hammer tiles right from the start. Or? That's too strong.

Jungles add 1 Food and 0 Production; they just happen to always spawn on Plains.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Jungles add 1 Food and 0 Production; they just happen to always spawn on Plains.

Do you think its balanced, that forest gain their improvement 2 tech tiers earlier than jungles and gain the more valuable yield instead for logging camps?
Workshop gives and to forests, universities to jungles, thats ok. But why do lumbermills get +2 and logging camps only +2 by technology, even its really clear, that one is worth two ?

 

[CrazyG]

I've been putting some thought into monopoly bonuses. The current iteration is a long way from AI friendly. As a specific example, China got her Coral monopoly on turn 112 in my current game, while a player pushing for an early monopoly can get them on turn 50+ (40+ with a a few decent ruins). Another thing here is progress vs tradition/authority. When your monopoly is worth like 10 culture or faith, getting it just a few turns earlier is a huge deal, and progress is so much better at rushing to connect resources.

So, here's an idea. What if you needed a specific tech, building, or even just a raw turn number to get access to your monopoly's bonus. It would go a long way to decreasing the disparity between humans and AI.

Some example ideas:

• Monopolies are enabled on turn 75 (standard speed, and the equivalent date for other speeds).
  
• You must be in classical era to get your monopoly bonus
• You must unlock currency
  
• You must build the East India Company to activate your monopoly bonus (move EIC earlier, maybe to currency?)

I think that something along these lines would remove the early snowballing potential of many luxuries, making them a lot easier to balance.

 

[Gazebo]

I've been putting some thought into monopoly bonuses. The current iteration is a long way from AI friendly. As a specific example, China got her Coral monopoly on turn 112 in my current game, while a player pushing for an early monopoly can get them on turn 50+ (40+ with a a few decent ruins). Another thing here is progress vs tradition/authority. When your monopoly is worth like 10 culture or faith, getting it just a few turns earlier is a huge deal, and progress is so much better at rushing to connect resources.

So, here's an idea. What if you needed a specific tech, building, or even just a raw turn number to get access to your monopoly's bonus. It would go a long way to decreasing the disparity between humans and AI.

Some example ideas:

• Monopolies are enabled on turn 75 (standard speed, and the equivalent date for other speeds).
  
• You must be in classical era to get your monopoly bonus
• You must unlock currency
  
• You must build the East India Company to activate your monopoly bonus (move EIC earlier, maybe to currency?)

I think that something along these lines would remove the early snowballing potential of many luxuries, making them a lot easier to balance.

It would be trivial to add a tech unlock to the system...perhaps at Guilds?

G

 

[CrazyG]

It would be trivial to add a tech unlock to the system...perhaps at Guilds?

G

Guilds is pretty late. A monopoly such as +2 faith is a lot worse at that point. So if it is that late, we would need to do a few big changes. But I'm glad to hear this idea is possible.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

The current iteration is a long way from AI friendly. .

Anyone have any pull with Google deep mind/Alpha Zero? Imagine seeing Alpha playing VP, would be so cool. It should also be a lot easier than getting it to play Starcraft 2 or Dota as they are doing currently

 

[andersw]

I've been putting some thought into monopoly bonuses. The current iteration is a long way from AI friendly. As a specific example, China got her Coral monopoly on turn 112 in my current game, while a player pushing for an early monopoly can get them on turn 50+ (40+ with a a few decent ruins). Another thing here is progress vs tradition/authority. When your monopoly is worth like 10 culture or faith, getting it just a few turns earlier is a huge deal, and progress is so much better at rushing to connect resources.

So, here's an idea. What if you needed a specific tech, building, or even just a raw turn number to get access to your monopoly's bonus. It would go a long way to decreasing the disparity between humans and AI.

Some example ideas:

• Monopolies are enabled on turn 75 (standard speed, and the equivalent date for other speeds).
  
• You must be in classical era to get your monopoly bonus
• You must unlock currency
  
• You must build the East India Company to activate your monopoly bonus (move EIC earlier, maybe to currency?)

I think that something along these lines would remove the early snowballing potential of many luxuries, making them a lot easier to balance.

Turn 75 adjusted for speed sounds great.
That doesnt lock into specific tech orders (like currency or similar), classic era is also an ok but less good option.

 

[pineappledan]

I've been putting some thought into monopoly bonuses. The current iteration is a long way from AI friendly. As a specific example, China got her Coral monopoly on turn 112 in my current game, while a player pushing for an early monopoly can get them on turn 50+ (40+ with a a few decent ruins). Another thing here is progress vs tradition/authority. When your monopoly is worth like 10 culture or faith, getting it just a few turns earlier is a huge deal, and progress is so much better at rushing to connect resources. Period.

So, here's an idea. What if you needed a specific tech, building, or even just a raw turn number to get access to your monopoly's bonus. It would go a long way to decreasing the disparity between humans and AI.

Some example ideas:

• Monopolies are enabled on turn 75 (standard speed, and the equivalent date for other speeds).
  
• You must be in classical era to get your monopoly bonus
• You must unlock currency
  
• You must build the East India Company to activate your monopoly bonus (move EIC earlier, maybe to currency?)

I think that something along these lines would remove the early snowballing potential of many luxuries, making them a lot easier to balance.

I think if you're going to do this, Faith simply cannot be considered an acceptable monopoly bonus. I don't disagree with the sentiment, but you will have to overhaul all yields on faith monopoly resources. If I start on Tobacco and I don't get my Faith until classical, I am rerolling.

Also, a medieval unlock just doesn't make any sense. I think unlocking monopolies on classical will get the timing right. Ancient era is too soon; empires weren't able to monopolize the export of certain industries; their borders and administrations were too porous to control commodities like that. By Classical, however, you had Phoenicians locking down the trade in purple dyes, China monopolizing silk, West African kingdoms controlling the trans-saharan gold and salt trade, etc.

I prefer the idea of era unlock because there are other things that are era unlocked. a turn unlock is arbitrary, has no precedent, and tech leaders have no reward in that system.

EDIT: Phoenicia is actually a great example. Prior to 2000 BC, Phoenicia began the Mediterranean wine trade, but wasn't able to monopolize it. Phoenicia also started the purple dye trade circe 1500 BC, and were able to keep that a trade secret.

EDIT EDIT: I agree with @tothePAIN, this is an unnecessary complication to a system that I am happy with. An olive branch to the AI isn’t worth the undue arbitrary complication for a human player, in my opinion.

 

[tothePAIN]

I've got a question. I stopped coming to the forums for about 6 months. Is there still an intent to finalize the mod and go for gold? Because otherwise, it seems like changes then require further changes, etc. And some of these systems are pretty darn good. Monopolies seem mostly balance to me.

Some monopolies are strong early and very little use later. Others, the opposite. I'm currently playing an authority game with a faith monopoly, so I actually got a religion. The monopoly doesn't mean as much in the mid or late game, but that's fine. If it was at guilds, or maybe even classical, that's going to reduce the effectiveness of rushing that monopoly and force my game play. Why?

 

[Gazebo]

It would be trivial to add a tech unlock to the system...perhaps at Guilds?

G

Currency could work, yep.