1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Starting Luxuries Tier List

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ShadedSkies, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Messages:
    375
    Gender:
    Male
    With the change, jungle can pre-chopped so jungle resource monopolies can be brought online earlier.
    That compensates for at least some of the loss in production from chopping.

    Also, resources like Cocoa or Citrus give the best starting tiles...

    I don't see an issue there on paper. But we'll playtest and see.
     
  2. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Sorry, you are wrong. Chopping jungle is still on calender.
    You would still have to research calender, till you can chop jungles with the difference, that you didnt get any hammer anymore.
    Chopping forest can be done earlier, but without hammers, even if you research bronze working, you would gain less hammers for chopping forests.

    This solution is worse for everyone. And I dont know why beeing able to chop forests earlier have to be punished by such result.
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    I think the only way bronze working becomes a more appealing tech is if spearmen become more important relative to archers. Also swordsmen relative to comp bows.
     
    Maxxim69, vyyt, Tantro and 2 others like this.
  4. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    714
    Gender:
    Male
    I like the proposed idea, but Jungle Chopping should be moved to either Trapping or The Wheel instead of Calendar.

    Also now that we're talking about jungle/forest balance, anyone knows why most maps don't have jungles on grassland? Too good in vanilla? Since the only map I've observed with jungles on grassland (Communitas) has them nerfed to 2f instead of 3f.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  5. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I dunno. I think it's something from vanilla Civ.

    Maybe it's supposed to represent how cutting down jungle doesn't give you very good farmland. I love grassland myself though, would love to see some of it under jungle.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  6. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    714
    Gender:
    Male
    Try Communitu_79a v1.14 then. Abundant resources if you don't want to see something like 40 coal in the whole map.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  7. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Jungles/forests are 3 yield tiles while every other luxury spot, except incense on flood plains are only 2 yield tiles.
    I think, gaining 1 more hammer till you have improved the tile and additional hammers for cutting it is a fair compensation for the need for 3 techs and chopping time.

    I would like to see jungles with 3 food, maybe after some tech before logging camps to make them more different and less inferior to forests.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  8. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Messages:
    714
    Gender:
    Male
    Spoiler Communitu_79a has them :
     
  9. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    777
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    Wouldn't you just have Jungle spawn on Grassland for 3 Food?
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  10. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    But then you would have 3 food 1 hammer tiles right from the start. Or? That's too strong.
     
  11. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    777
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    Jungles add 1 Food and 0 Production; they just happen to always spawn on Plains.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  12. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,821
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Do you think its balanced, that forest gain their improvement 2 tech tiers earlier than jungles and gain the more valuable yield :c5production: instead :c5gold: for logging camps?
    Workshop gives :c5production: and :c5gold: to forests, universities :c5science: to jungles, thats ok. But why do lumbermills get +2:c5production: and logging camps only +2:c5gold: by technology, even its really clear, that one :c5production: is worth two :c5gold:?
     
    JamesNinelives and Arthur Jama like this.
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    I've been putting some thought into monopoly bonuses. The current iteration is a long way from AI friendly. As a specific example, China got her Coral monopoly on turn 112 in my current game, while a player pushing for an early monopoly can get them on turn 50+ (40+ with a a few decent ruins). Another thing here is progress vs tradition/authority. When your monopoly is worth like 10 culture or faith, getting it just a few turns earlier is a huge deal, and progress is so much better at rushing to connect resources.

    So, here's an idea. What if you needed a specific tech, building, or even just a raw turn number to get access to your monopoly's bonus. It would go a long way to decreasing the disparity between humans and AI.

    Some example ideas:
    • Monopolies are enabled on turn 75 (standard speed, and the equivalent date for other speeds).
    • You must be in classical era to get your monopoly bonus
    • You must unlock currency
    • You must build the East India Company to activate your monopoly bonus (move EIC earlier, maybe to currency?)
    I think that something along these lines would remove the early snowballing potential of many luxuries, making them a lot easier to balance.
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,851
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    It would be trivial to add a tech unlock to the system...perhaps at Guilds?

    G
     
    vyyt and CrazyG like this.
  15. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,876
    Location:
    Beijing
    Guilds is pretty late. A monopoly such as +2 faith is a lot worse at that point. So if it is that late, we would need to do a few big changes. But I'm glad to hear this idea is possible.
     
    vyyt and JamesNinelives like this.
  16. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Sweden
    Anyone have any pull with Google deep mind/Alpha Zero? Imagine seeing Alpha playing VP, would be so cool. It should also be a lot easier than getting it to play Starcraft 2 or Dota as they are doing currently :)
     
    vyyt and JamesNinelives like this.
  17. andersw

    andersw King

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    880
    Location:
    sweden
    Turn 75 adjusted for speed sounds great.
    That doesnt lock into specific tech orders (like currency or similar), classic era is also an ok but less good option.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,088
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    I think if you're going to do this, Faith simply cannot be considered an acceptable monopoly bonus. I don't disagree with the sentiment, but you will have to overhaul all yields on faith monopoly resources. If I start on Tobacco and I don't get my :c5faith:Faith until classical, I am rerolling.

    Also, a medieval unlock just doesn't make any sense. I think unlocking monopolies on classical will get the timing right. Ancient era is too soon; empires weren't able to monopolize the export of certain industries; their borders and administrations were too porous to control commodities like that. By Classical, however, you had Phoenicians locking down the trade in purple dyes, China monopolizing silk, West African kingdoms controlling the trans-saharan gold and salt trade, etc.

    I prefer the idea of era unlock because there are other things that are era unlocked. a turn unlock is arbitrary, has no precedent, and tech leaders have no reward in that system.

    EDIT: Phoenicia is actually a great example. Prior to 2000 BC, Phoenicia began the Mediterranean wine trade, but wasn't able to monopolize it. Phoenicia also started the purple dye trade circe 1500 BC, and were able to keep that a trade secret.

    EDIT EDIT: I agree with @tothePAIN, this is an unnecessary complication to a system that I am happy with. An olive branch to the AI isn’t worth the undue arbitrary complication for a human player, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
    Maxxim69, Rhys DeAnno, vyyt and 5 others like this.
  19. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    362
    Gender:
    Male
    I've got a question. I stopped coming to the forums for about 6 months. Is there still an intent to finalize the mod and go for gold? Because otherwise, it seems like changes then require further changes, etc. And some of these systems are pretty darn good. Monopolies seem mostly balance to me.

    Some monopolies are strong early and very little use later. Others, the opposite. I'm currently playing an authority game with a faith monopoly, so I actually got a religion. The monopoly doesn't mean as much in the mid or late game, but that's fine. If it was at guilds, or maybe even classical, that's going to reduce the effectiveness of rushing that monopoly and force my game play. Why?
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,851
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Currency could work, yep.
     

Share This Page