Starting Luxuries Tier List

[CrazyG]

Please don't patronize me. Just because I play a certain way now doesn't mean I'd done exactly the same thing over and over again. I choose these setting because I have tried various options and this is what I find the most fun.

Let's be really clear, you told me you can't get a monopoly on 3 cites on huge very often. That's factually false, I just rolled several starts to check. Establishing a rough date for when you can get the monopolies is relevant to a balance discussion.

That's really important information, because exactly how strong 2 culture on those tiles are depends a lot on timing. There's a huge difference between getting it turn 50, 60, and 70. For a balance discussion, we need to assess when you can connect things. You can connect work boats faster than other monopolies most of the time. I don't know what your point is here

Also this began because I said that you can get fishing luxuries on pangea, which can you do. There's no alternate perspective there either, its something that happens.

To me, nothing about disagreeing implies hostility or a brawl.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Also this began because I said that you can get fishing luxuries on pangea, which can you do.

And not once have I said that is false.

you told me you can't get a monopoly on 3 cites on huge very often

Because that is literally my experience. I don't get why you are so set on trying to invalidate what I have said.

I don't know what your point is here

My point is that I found your manner very rude, and your seeming unwillingness to try to see things from my point of view very frustrating. I feel like you are going out of your way to make your voice the only one that matters in this discussion.

 

[CrazyG]

Because that is literally my experience. I don't get why you are so set on trying to invalidate what I have said.

Share a pic of your last game, let's work together and see if we could place cities so that you only needed 3 to get that monopoly. Again, I just tested this on huge, and after initial scouting it was very much possible several times in a row.

Quick getting a monopoly is a balance concern. I can see your point, but can you see mine? I currently reroll coral, just because I think its so strong its boring. The strength in common circumstances is important to this discussion, and whether its too strong when rushed. For the moment, let's just talk about rushing the monopoly. Not rushing it is another discussion.

So the next discussion would be when you don't rush monopolies. What are the issues with luxuries here? Any too strong, too weak? Anything not fun to play? Here I have issues with silk (which is a monopoly I don't rush, because as a 10% bonus it can wait), is is very weak to the extent the game can feel annoying.

My point is that I found your manner very rude, and your seeming unwillingness to try to see things from my point of view very frustrating.

I think that's the pot and the kettle and black. I assume you want to discuss civ, so let's discuss civ. I personally find it really frustrating that your issue is with my tone not my ideas.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I personally find it really frustrating that your issue is with my tone not my ideas.

You say you see my point, but you insist that your discussion should come first. You say that you have played several games on this setting, and yet you do not give me credit for having played hundreds of games on it.

I do not disagree that it is possible to get a monopoly with only three cities, or that fishing luxuries can be connected quicker. Yes, I disagreed with you at first. Since then you have explained what you mean more clearly. So now I agree with you.

I agree that Silk has poor incentives for rushing a monopoly, as does Sugar. Jungle plantation starts require more investment for that strategy, and improving jungle camps (furs, truffles) or non-jungle tiles (luxes, horses) can be a higher priority.

Normally I would love to discuss this further, but I am tired of going back and forth on this subject.

Edit: I looked through my screenshots and found an example of what I mean.

Spoiler Coral :

Found another one where I had to settle an island on the other side of Portugal (to the West) in order to get the monopoly bonus.

Spoiler Pearls :

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

On the other hand, this gives me hope. If it's such a problem having no production outside of the bottom techs then maybe things are better then before and bronze is more useful

I disagree.....The point that started this conversation is how tedious is getting plantations on forests online compared to their jungle counter parts but what this change does is it makes both equally bad or at least not as intriguing as the rest of luxuries.
Connecting a resource on forest or jungle takes roughly double the amount of time that came with a not so fantastic compensation as 2 ~ 3 turns worth of , losing these hammers on a resource that is already requires a tier 2 tech to connect is not something i would call balanced or even close to.
Seriously taking 16 turns to improve a single tile and subsequently taking much more time to connect the monopoly, a time sufficient to improve two tiles and not getting any sort of compensation for it is not a good idea at all, not even accounting for how most of the plantation luxuries are plain inferior to say mining, camp, fishing or even quarry luxuries.
to be completely honest about it i would just make both jungles and forest chopping and unlocked at calendar; there is no point in splitting them and weakening what's already not the most fantastic start you would want.
The lower side of tech tree being weak or less appealing is it's own problem and i don't think it's wise to try to solve a balance issue by creating more of them.

 

[Tantro]

i would just make both jungles and forest chopping and unlocked at calendar

My wish would be to combine chop at mining tech since there's a lot of other luxuries and resources that are locked behind forest/jungle early on. I see absolutely no point in having two separate chop actions.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

My wish would be to combine chop at mining tech since there's a lot of other luxuries and resources that are locked behind forest/jungle early on. I see absolutely no point in having two separate chop actions.

There is no point in unlocking them at mining; it just recreates the same issue with Oil that was unlocking it with biology at the top side of the tree but to use it you have to unlock combustion at the lower end of the tree.
Why do i have to research hunting, the wheel, calendar and mining too to be able to improve a tile ? what's the point in making simple things complicated for no reason ?

 

[Tantro]

Hunting and wheel has nothing to do with it, it's a tech tree pre-req. I think it's healthy for the game if there is some tension as to the choices one can make. Not everyone plays the same strategies and unlocking chop at mining will accommodate a range of play styles. It's not only plantation luxuries that sometimes require chop, but also quarries, mining, iron and some civ specifics like moai.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Hunting and wheel has nothing to do with it, it's a tech tree pre-req. I think it's healthy for the game if there is some tension as to the choices one can make. Not everyone plays the same strategies and unlocking chop at mining will accommodate a range of play styles. It's not only plantation luxuries that sometimes require chop, but also quarries, mining, iron and some civ specifics like moai.

As i said it's just recreating an issue that was debated for a long time; there is no point in splitting the tech requirements for an improvement especially this early in the game.

 

[JamesNinelives]

As i said it's just recreating an issue that was debated for a long time; there is no point in splitting the tech requirements for an improvement especially this early in the game.

I agree. This is kind of going from 'forest plantations suck' to 'now jungle plantations suck' lol.

Jungle chop production now matches forest chop production which is good. People who only care about what's underneath get what they want. And the bottom of the tech tree is much more worthwhile.

Except jungle starts get nerfed hard because chopping jungle at Calender gives you nothing unless you have Bronze Working too.

 

[Tantro]

But jungle starts get nerfed hard because chopping jungle at Calender gives you nothing unless you have Bronze Working too.

Isn't this the point of the lower tech tree, hammers and production? I agree though, moving chop to mining, and then choking the hammer, seems to defeat the purpose of moving chop to mining in the first place. Honestly, it seems the simplest solution is just to keep hammers on chop as is and just move chop forest to mining.

In addition, I'd take it one step further and just combine chop forest/jungle and place it on mining so it's easier to remove jungles earlier when they spawn upon quarries and the like.

 

[JamesNinelives]

That would be fine.

Alternately, jungle chop gets half hammers at Calender, and full hammers at Mathematics. Then forest and jungle are balanced at least.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

There is literally no point in nerfing jungle starts that are low production by design by cutting off the free hammers from chopping by half as you suggest or completely removing them as in G's proposal.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

There is literally no point in nerfing jungle starts that are low production by design by cutting off the free hammers from chopping by half as you suggest or completely removing them as in G's proposal.

Starting with a plantation luxury in forests is a pain, this situation have to be solved. And I fully I agree, there's no reason to punish jungle starts in general, cause it's now possible to cut forests earlier.
Improving a forest plantation luxury would still need 4 techs (practically 5, cause you need pottery too), need 7 turns only to clean the terrain and didn't get anything in return, even your the civ which need the longest time to get luxuries/monopoly. Why?

I still see a dual solution as the optimum.
Both techs (calender and bronze working) unlock chopping forest/jungle.
Set the base chopping time to 11 and yields from chopping to 50% of the current yields. Both tech reduce the time to chop by 2 turns and add 25% of the current yields for chopping.

Research atleast one of both techs would give 75% of the current yields and need 2 turns more, research both and it is like now.

 

[Gazebo]

A jungle start should be the slowest start. There. I said it.

G

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

A jungle start should be the slowest start. There. I said it.

G

slower than what it already is ?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Then it perhaps should be, on average, the best long-term start once you factor in possible monopolies/luxuries/buildings/improvements etc.? And if so, I think currently it's clearly not...

 

[JamesNinelives]

A jungle start should be the slowest start. There. I said it.

G

I guess that's why the Aztecs are a civ built around long-term investments? :/

Even if you are playing Pedro or the Maya, there needs to be something to balance the time and effort needed to access resources under that foliage.

Is more production after unlocking Iron Working the intended payoff? Because the jungle that matters most is already chopped by then. I cannot afford to leave my luxury resources unimproved until the classical era.

 

[Bascule2000]

I guess that's why the Aztecs are a civ built around long-term investments? :/

They were wiped out by a civ that got a better start

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

It's worth noting that Both plantation and camp luxuries spawn on Jungles/forests are boosted by the same building, the herbalist by the same amount of on improvement but only camps get from herbalist because the forest/jungle is not chopped.
It's just counter intuitive that you are putting more effort into improving a tile and the payoff is lower than that of the camp that does not require as much effort to improve it.