Starting Strategies

[Carl5872]

I thought it would be useful to have a thread where people posted their first few builds, research and social policies.

Obviously the situation is critical to the decisions so please explain your circumstances and reasons for builds.

For example:

I usually play on pangea with askia. I will start building a monument for 2 reasons. First is to expand boarders, second is to get the first honor policy as soon as possible to attack barbarians. After the monument I will keep building warriors. I will usually research whatever techs I need to unlock the available resources. I will use the gold from the barbarian camps to buy a worker, and keep producing warriors. When I have about 4-5 warriors, I will usually research archery, and buy/ build 2 archrs, then attack my nearest neighbor.

 

[Zaimejs]

That's the opposite of my start. No matter who I am or where I am I usually go: Scout, Worker, Monument. Sometimes I'll go monument 2nd if I feel like it.

Scout to explore and get goodies and keep barbs at bay.
Worker to develop plots early.

I usually go for Liberty and use that to get my first settler.

 

[Carl5872]

That's the opposite of my start. No matter who I am or where I am I usually go: Scout, Worker, Monument. Sometimes I'll go monument 2nd if I feel like it.

Scout to explore and get goodies and keep barbs at bay.
Worker to develop plots early.

I usually go for Liberty and use that to get my first settler.

This leads me to another question, is it better to make warriors to scout? Pro is that you can fight barbs and get gold along the way, but the con is they are slower, and cost more.

 

[snarzberry]

I've recently for the first time in a looooong time not built a scout first in favour of a warrior. I've done this on a number of occasions playing as Russia. My game plan was using her UA to get a huge army of early longswords, maybe 10 - 12 unis on a good start, by turn 75. Building a warrior to use for early scouting and then bringing him back home is one more unit I can upgrade to LS when steel comes in. Keep in mind you lose the ability to build warriors at Metal Casting, so this concept could apply to other civs. It is an extra cheap LS.

But in the vast majority of games I open with scout - monument. A small percentage scout - scout. A smaller percentage scout - worker. An even smaller percentage warrior - monument.

 

[budweiser]

I've been playing as France for some 'Next Turn' cultural wins on Emperor.

I either go worker first, then AH, BW. Or I build a second warrior. An archer is usually my third military build.

I either go Tradition of Liberty depending if I want to get 4 cities up really fast and a free settler. But sometimes I get Monarchy as my third SP for growth and happiness.

If I see nothing but land, that is no water at all, I might go scout first and keep the starting warrior close.

 

[P-Zombie]

I've recently come back to the game...liking it better this time around, so far, in spite of many remaining shortcomings.

I've been pushing up in difficulty, and the farther up I go the more predictable my starts have been.

Pottery -> Writing -> Animal Husbandry -> resource techs -> Iron Working

Monument -> Warrior -> Granary (or second Warrior) -> Library -> National College

Liberty -> Citizenship -> Tradition -> Collective Rule -> Legalism -> Monarchy

I presume this is a pretty standard NC start strategy, and I like it. There are a few things I might do differently each time...maybe Mining before AH if I've got gold/silver/gems, particularly if I get culture from ruins and get my free worker early. I'll only build a granary if I have wheat or deer to make it more effective, and if I have spare hammers while waiting for Writing, I'll build more warriors. I never build scouts any more...the lack of an upgrade path makes them unappealing to me, and I usually need the warriors to deal with barbarians. Around the time the NC is finishing, I'm near to unlocking Collective Rule for the settler, and will buy a second worker to follow after (unless I've gotten one from some other source). I'll build a couple more settlers at this point to grab resources, usually stopping at four cities total. At this point I go for vertical growth and and start focusing on how I'm going to win.

 

[Deau]

This leads me to another question, is it better to make warriors to scout? Pro is that you can fight barbs and get gold along the way, but the con is they are slower, and cost more.

More often than not, a scout vs a warrior will get you more than 200g between goodie huts, CSs and the relative value of extra bonuses. This is the purchase cost of a warrior. So scouts are definitely better than warriors in almost every situation. I find the example of snarz to be a decent exception although I would have probably built a scout anyway because of how much I dislike to see a warrior I had planned to upgrade to LS...get turned into a spearman from a goodie hut. I would then pray to get an extra gold goodie hut to pay the expense of that extra warrior purchased.

 

[P-Zombie]

More often than not, a scout vs a warrior will get you more than 200g between goodie huts, CSs and the relative value of extra bonuses. This is the purchase cost of a warrior. So scouts are definitely better than warriors in almost every situation.

The higher in difficulty I go, the less I agree with this claim. As you move up the AI has more units out sooner, so you're going to get fewer ruins no matter what you build. And considering the randomness of it, is one extra ruin worth spending hammers on a unit that fights poorly and can't ever be upgraded? Do I really need a map of the ocean that bad? Or to be shown where the barb camps are after I've found them all?

I highly doubt I would get another 200g "more often than not" even at Emperor, and less likely still when I try Immortal. The warrior is better at what you need units for: fighting. Ruins are nice, but they aren't that important, imho.

 

[Deau]

The higher in difficulty I go, the less I agree with this claim. As you move up the AI has more units out sooner, so you're going to get fewer ruins no matter what you build. And considering the randomness of it, is one extra ruin worth spending hammers on a unit that fights poorly and can't ever be upgraded? Do I really need a map of the ocean that bad? Or to be shown where the barb camps are after I've found them all?

I highly doubt I would get another 200g "more often than not" even at Emperor, and less likely still when I try Immortal. The warrior is better at what you need units for: fighting. Ruins are nice, but they aren't that important, imho.

I'm playing Deity and wouldn't pull away from scouts to warrior most of the time too, you will catch a "unit upgrade" amongst the ruins and then an archer is much, much better than a spearman to repeel those annoying early game rushes.

200g might look big but if you hit CSs first twice and if you cover sightly more land from no terrain cost thus discovering 2-3 more CSs before losing your scout (or pulling him back home to defend), you wind up with 60-75g more from it already. Two "non barbs" goody hut will get you above your goal.

Scouting more civs early also reduces the beaker cost of every tech. On deity, the AI begins with all 4 ancient era techs and meeting all 7 AIs reduces the price of each of these by ~23% or so. Thats a LOT of early beakers...those that matter. Last but not least, on very high levels, happiness is only rough in the very early game and you will definitely discover more wonders playing around with scouts. This may be just 1-3 extra early happiness but that's also 1-3 extra early capital growth...which turns into ~7 BPT in the early game when your whole empire produces like 30 beakers between NC start and having 1-3 cities. That is very big as well.

Dont get me wrong, I used to never build scouts when I started playing. Thought they were useless. I have changed my mind upside down after writting down what really they could bring.

 

[roguepro92]

in my gaming.
all those barbs and all that goodies doesn't make any difference

if its big open map > scout.
if it has lots of jungle or mountains > scout.

if its isolated or small continent > warrior.
if i'm aiming to do warrior or LS or somekind of rush > warrior

if its random map > bowman > since i almost exclusively play Babylon
bowman is stronger than warrior but i sometimes chose warrior because i dont want to spend turns teching archery.
seems to do me justice.

 

[P-Zombie]

I'm playing Deity and wouldn't pull away from scouts to warrior most of the time too, you will catch a "unit upgrade" amongst the ruins and then an archer is much, much better than a spearman to repeel those annoying early game rushes.

200g might look big but if you hit CSs first twice and if you cover sightly more land from no terrain cost thus discovering 2-3 more CSs before losing your scout (or pulling him back home to defend), you wind up with 60-75g more from it already. Two "non barbs" goody hut will get you above your goal.

Scouting more civs early also reduces the beaker cost of every tech. On deity, the AI begins with all 4 ancient era techs and meeting all 7 AIs reduces the price of each of these by ~23% or so. Thats a LOT of early beakers...those that matter. Last but not least, on very high levels, happiness is only rough in the very early game and you will definitely discover more wonders playing around with scouts. This may be just 1-3 extra early happiness but that's also 1-3 extra early capital growth...which turns into ~7 BPT in the early game when your whole empire produces like 30 beakers between NC start and having 1-3 cities. That is very big as well.

Dont get me wrong, I used to never build scouts when I started playing. Thought they were useless. I have changed my mind upside down after writting down what really they could bring.

I think I've figured out why our perceptions have gone in opposite directions (I used to always build a scout). What game speed are you playing at, and is your first build the scout?

I'm playing on Epic speed, and I'm building a Monument first. I do build a unit next (originally a scout, now a warrior) but after 20 turns the window of opportunity for ruins is already starting to close. I do still find all the CSs and wonders, since I use the original warrior as my primary explorer. Meeting the other Civs usually takes care of itself, as they find me as often as I find them. They're also finding a lot of the ruins in that time, and meeting most of the CSs first. If I'm lucky and pick a direction the AIs haven't explored yet, I may find some ruins. But it's been fairly common for me to only find two or three before the AI has scrubbed the map clean. When those few I do find turn out to be maps and camp locations, chasing ruins loses its appeal.

 

[MadDjinn]

yup, if the first thing you build *isn't* a scout, then you're missing the point of the scout unit or are in an obviously painful location that needing to see the map/meet people is useless. (duel map comes to mind)

Up to standard size map I build 1 scout first. Above that, and sometimes at standard, I'll build a 2nd scout; but not always 2nd build.

Meeting all of the AIs/CSs on your continent is very important. Getting map knowledge is important. The scouts can blast through any terrain, so use them for this. My initial warrior also wanders around, but tends to come home earlier than the scout. (I've played an archi map recently where, after Optics, my two scouts never came back. They were constantly wandering the seas looking for island ruins and new civs)

If you can get up to ~600g by the time Philosophy opens/other AIs already have it, you can grab three 200g RAs. This gets you through to medieval/renaissance very easily. The best way to ensure that the AI won't be breaking the agreement is to find the AIs that aren't right beside you, Ie, scouting.

really early game, happiness isn't an issue. a few Nat. Wonders, the base happiness bonus is all you really need. The only way to sell your lux/horses is to find AIs that have the cash to buy them. Not finding that AI with the 300g available bc you didn't scout past the Aztecs will hurt you in the long run.

First build - Scout in 5 turns on standard. - this means ensuring you've got hammers. (settle on a hill or use a forest/etc to get the 2nd hammer)
2nd build - Now, generally Monument. Sometimes scout.
3rd build - Either worker/scout/granary, depending on circumstances/SP path chosen.
4th build - Generally Library/NC
5th+ - REX

 

[lilnev]

Scout-worker-warrior-National College.

Most often, anyway ... sometimes a second scout, sometimes I have to hard-build the library, sometimes I can buy a second worker or a workboat. I generally detour from Writing by one tech (either Mining or Calendar) to get luxuries developed and sold, and buy the library. NC should finish sometime in the 40's, though occasionally it's in the 50's.

Liberty-Collective Rule-Patronage, or Liberty-Citizenship-Patronage. Citizenship is a better choice if I won't be able to unlock Medieval in time for the 3rd SP, because Meritocracy is vastly better than Republic. I've played with Tradition through Landed Elite a few times as well, but I don't have as good a feel for the timing.

 

[P-Zombie]

yup, if the first thing you build *isn't* a scout, then you're missing the point of the scout unit or are in an obviously painful location that needing to see the map/meet people is useless. (duel map comes to mind)...

I haven't found the terrain bonus of the scout to be sufficiently important, at least on the standard size Continent maps I'm playing on. It's not like I'm not exploring at all - it may take a few more turns for my warrior to meet everybody, but he gets the job done. And he's much more useful after exploration is over; scouts drain the coffers while parked waiting for Astronomy, or get deleted.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

More often than not, a scout vs a warrior will get you more than 200g between goodie huts, CSs and the relative value of extra bonuses. This is the purchase cost of a warrior. So scouts are definitely better than warriors in almost every situation. I find the example of snarz to be a decent exception although I would have probably built a scout anyway because of how much I dislike to see a warrior I had planned to upgrade to LS...get turned into a spearman from a goodie hut. I would then pray to get an extra gold goodie hut to pay the expense of that extra warrior purchased.

I feel this is so important that I will always (if possible) make sure my initial citizen works a tile to get the scout out in 5 turns instead of 7 and shift back to the best food tile (if needed) after the scout is out.

 

[grandad1982]

Well I play without ruins on so I feel like the importance of the scout is somewhat diminished.

With this in mind I usually go Warrior > Warrior > Worker.

SPs will usually go Trad > Lib > Collective Rule (the free worker one) > Meritocracy.

I first tech the fastest resource upgrades for my start then will hit up Writing. I look to get the GLib with the GEng from Meritocracy. This should get me Iron or whatever.

Since the new patch I've also found Archery to be a much more useful tech that it used to be so I often sneak this in early especially if I'm getting early DoWs.

I like to expand quickly so after the worker I may well go Settler depending on how secure I feel.

 

[qyll]

My standard start consists of scout-worker-settler (maybe a warrior in between, depending). I find this is good balance between development and expansion.

Social policy beelines to meritocracy. I get a free worker in the process and a free great person for a nice start.

Research goes to techs that'll let me use immediate resources and then iron working before writing. I'm a warmonger.

 

[MadDjinn]

I haven't found the terrain bonus of the scout to be sufficiently important, at least on the standard size Continent maps I'm playing on. It's not like I'm not exploring at all - it may take a few more turns for my warrior to meet everybody, but he gets the job done. And he's much more useful after exploration is over; scouts drain the coffers while parked waiting for Astronomy, or get deleted.

true, it is map dependant, but the more civs you find, the more you can sell/faster research, etc...

the scout makes a nice flanker unit. give an extra +10% to another unit and allows it to peek ahead for ranged units.

 

[Deau]

@P-Zombie
As MadDjinn pointed out, if your very first build isn't a scout, then the whole purpose of the scout is defeated.

Also on epic, scouts lose slight value if you play emperor+ because the AIs gains an extra 50% turns to outscout you to huts. They are still definitely worthwhile on epic if you build them first though. On marathon well...pray for el dorado and rush buy a scout? lol exagerating a bit, finding other civs fast to reduce the tech beaker cost is still worthwhile but justifying scout instead of warrior on marathon speed is really hard...unless you play huge maps


@aoxomoxoa
Totally. 2 fewer turns to scout sometimes kicks in big extra bonuses. I have been more and more inclined to settling atop a luxury so mining luxuries fix that issue for me itself since I wind up on a hill but more often than not I'll try to get a 5-turns scout at the cost of sightly less early growth.

and then to whoever was discussing his map based alternatives, ofc building a scout on an archipelago map for example is a no go but the scout will generally bring you more benefits if built first than any other option on maps where you have lands to explore and neighbors to meet. Even more true on higher difficulties since AIs outtech you early so meeting them reduces your tech costs.

 

[budweiser]

About scouting - A lot of you seem too pre-occupied with grabbing every last goodie hut. Thats not strategy, it dice rolling. And I dont think its really that wise. I like to keep my starting units close to home so thet can fog bust and kill barbs. There is nothing worse than getting a tile pillaged or having to stop a worker to dodge a barb.

I will many times wait until between 650BC- 1AD before I send out a scout. I will build it from my military city and it usually gets a promo or two, extra visibility, extra movement. Then I send it out on auto explore and it will travel all over the map and reveal all the AI cities. I sign open borders so it can move freely. This is a much safer method, no need to worry about barbs.