Statehood and ancient empires (split from war thread)

[Kyriakos]

Nationalism is a very modern invention, and all in all an artificial construction,

the history of the city of Gent for example predates the history of the nation state of Belgium by many centuries, arguably I'm more "linked" to the people that walked these same streets 500 years or a 1000 years ago, than to some Belgians in the 1800s.

In Greece your cities are many times older even, isn't it much the same there ?

Any country needs an identity - otherwise it sooner or later gets relegated (implicitly or explicitly) to region of another. It doesn't take long to notice that current Greece isn't ancient Greece. But there are enough reasons to grant a relatively larger tie to it than for people who are not from here.
As for the 1821- greek state, historically it tried to restore its byzantine center. This was virtually achieved in 1919-1920, but then got away again.
Among other issues, one prevalent in greek society is that there is literally so much history tied to cities and areas, that while you can easily identify with various majestic things, the overall culture (to the degree we can speak of an overall culture in any country) is very much confused.

Some emblematic parts of civilization, simply transcend borders. Again, not difficult to find, even if you don't actually mean to look for them.

(PS: it wasn't called "trap" by the author; that's just some lowly american naming ^^ )

 

[Snowygerry]

Strange to see the Chinese president use Greek history as reference, but not stranger than the fact they're still governed by a communist party.

Communism was invented by some Germans in the 1800s - little would they have imagined how it would influence statecraft on the other side of the world to this day.

Red was the colour of the first colour revolution after all

 

[Kyriakos]

Strange to see the Chinese president use Greek history as reference, but not stranger than the fact they're still governed by a communist party.

Communism was invented by some Germans in the 1800s - little would they have imagined how it would influence statecraft on the other side of the world to this day.

Red was the colour of the first colour revolution after all

Afaik in China they very often use (ancient) greek terms. They have a respect for the culture (besides, early in chinese history, you have the important for them conflict with the greek kingdom in central Asia)
Makes one wish this Greece was closer to the ancient one ^^

 

[Zardnaar]

With Greece though it didn't exist as a country but there's a clear cultural and linguistic link back to 8th century BC if not Mycenae.

3000 years to build up lots of decadence though. Bend the knee to your barbarians from Germania.

 

[Snowygerry]

Re german communism, I am sure they had an idea, when they sent Lenin along with money to Russia. Communist Russia only existed because Germany tried to win ww1.

I imagine they hoped their ideas would reshape Europe, not Asia.

Iirc Marx gave up his Prussian nationality when he moved to Brussels.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I suspect that the genetic mix of ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, etc. is hardly the same as those living in those places today. 2000 or more years of mixing has stirred the pot considerably.

 

[Angst]

I suspect that the genetic mix of ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, etc. is hardly the same as those living in those places today. 2000 or more years of mixing has stirred the pot considerably.

*sexy germanic noises*

 

[Snowygerry]

Hm - statehood has little to do with genetica, genetically, modern Germans, Dutch or French are probably indistinguishable from Belgians (or eachother), nevertheless they all fought for centuries to establish independent polities.

Even in Roman times Belgians are described as a vicious crossbreed of Germans and Gauls, while according the Greeks they were all Celts.

Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilization and refinement of [our] Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germans, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war.

(...) that the greater part of the Belgae were sprung, from the Germans, and that having crossed the Rhine at an early period, they had settled there, on account of the fertility of the country, and had driven out the Gauls who inhabited those regions; and that they were the only people who, in the memory of our fathers [i.e. as far as we can remember], when all Gaul was overrun, had prevented the Teutones and the Cimbri from entering their territories; the effect of which was, that, from the recollection of those events, they assumed to themselves great authority and haughtiness in military matters.

Honestly what's different today

C. Julius Caesar, Gallic War, Book 1, chapter 1

www.perseus.tufts.edu

 

[amadeus]

That wasn't the view of Victor Hugo, Lord Byron, E.A. Poe or other names people are likely to have heard about.

But they were not the foreign policy makers of France or Great Britain, which at the time would not seek to upset the balance of power in the Balkans even if they felt personally that the modern Greek state had some diplomatic legitimacy as the heirs of the ancient empires.

Regardless of the great power politics, I’m not using the Greek example to negate their claims to recognized statehood.