Statehood and ancient empires (split from war thread)

[amadeus]

Greece's statehood has a history since ancient times. Ukraine as a country didn't exist prior to the 20-th century.

I disagree. Some have argued on technical grounds that Greece did not exist because it was a collection of states, but I don’t think this technicality is sufficient to answer the question; Italy was ruled by the Romans, but we do not consider the modern nation of Italy to be a successor to Rome.*

Similarly, the revolt in Greece that resulted in its independence was not viewed at the time as being in continuity with the Greek states of antiquity.

Ukraine did not “exist” in being independent, but it may have existed as much as Greece, Italy, or Germany did as a concept, though the ability of the Ukrainians at that time to assert independence was not there. To me, this sounds like saying there is no historical rationale for Poland because of it being finally partitioned between Prussia and Russia.

The last native Prince of Wales died in 1282. Is there too no Wales?

*Mussolini? he stunk out loud

 

[Farm Boy]

To quote Mr. Borachio, the neighboring place has been a slave nation since 1066.

Realm priests all fabricate claims the same way. The better ones do it faster.

 

[Kyriakos]

I disagree. Some have argued on technical grounds that Greece did not exist because it was a collection of states, but I don’t think this technicality is sufficient to answer the question; Italy was ruled by the Romans, but we do not consider the modern nation of Italy to be a successor to Rome.*

Similarly, the revolt in Greece that resulted in its independence was not viewed at the time as being in continuity with the Greek states of antiquity.

Ukraine did not “exist” in being independent, but it may have existed as much as Greece, Italy, or Germany did as a concept, though the ability of the Ukrainians at that time to assert independence was not there. To me, this sounds like saying there is no historical rationale for Poland because of it being finally partitioned between Prussia and Russia.

The last native Prince of Wales died in 1282. Is there too no Wales?

*Mussolini? he stunk out loud

That wasn't the view of Victor Hugo, Lord Byron, E.A. Poe or other names people are likely to have heard about. There are also the claims of the actual revolutionaries, which explicitly speak of Greece and restoring the greek civilization. And while the bulk weren't very literate (tends to happen with aeons of slavery), some were important for Europe as a whole, including the first governor of Greece, Ioannes Kapodistrias (former foreign minister of the russian empire, of greek descent) and Alexander Ypsilantes.
All that said, obviously Greece did have many states in the ancient era, so it is dumb to claim there was "no greek state" then (a bit similar to claiming there was no "german" state prior to 1871, just because it wasn't one state but two major powers and many smaller ones). There was even a large greek kingdom which came into contact (including war) with China, along with Seleucid, Ptolemaic empires, roughly 50 different city states, various blocks and leagues. In fact more greek countries from the ancient era are significantly known, studied and recorded, than non-greek ones.
Of note might be the sense of "crimes against hellenism", used by both sides during the peloponnesian war, or Alexander's "Alexander and the Greeks, apart from the Lacedemonians" campaign against Persia; a greek world was common knowledge.
Greek revolts didn't just happen in 1821 btw. There were hundreds of them since 1453.

While nationalism isn't nice, being against history is even worse.

 

[red_elk]

I disagree. Some have argued on technical grounds that Greece did not exist because it was a collection of states, but I don’t think this technicality is sufficient to answer the question; Italy was ruled by the Romans, but we do not consider the modern nation of Italy to be a successor to Rome.*

Similarly, the revolt in Greece that resulted in its independence was not viewed at the time as being in continuity with the Greek states of antiquity.

Ukraine did not “exist” in being independent, but it may have existed as much as Greece, Italy, or Germany did as a concept, though the ability of the Ukrainians at that time to assert independence was not there. To me, this sounds like saying there is no historical rationale for Poland because of it being finally partitioned between Prussia and Russia.

The last native Prince of Wales died in 1282. Is there too no Wales?

*Mussolini? he stunk out loud

I did not deny that a country or nation can exist as a concept, without statehood or independence. Though even as a concept, Greece has much longer history than Ukraine, or Russia for that matter.
The only reason I mentioned that Ukraine didn't exist as a country before 20-th century was to address a popular claim that Ukraine is a successor of Kievan Rus.
Ukraine in its 1991 borders is a successor of Ukrainian SSR, which was creation of Soviet rulers.

 

[Samson]

I am so not an expert, but the "Hellenic" thing, whether you call it a nation, a people, a culture or a tradition seems much more historically grounded than anything I could recognise as English or British. "The people who set in a thousand ships off after Helen" is a better story than any national unity you can get from UK history.

 

[Remorseless1]

Ukrainian culture has existed for around 1,000 years if not longer. The varied Greek and German provinces shared a general culture and history. The Vietnamese held their culture together while fighting the Chinese, the French and the US. Ukraine as an independent modern state is as long as the various nations that used to comprise Yugoslavia, as well as the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Are these countries are deserving of invasion since they are "illegitimate" states?

 

[red_elk]

Ukrainian culture has existed for around 1,000 years if not longer.

East-Slavic culture, which later developed into Ukrainian, Belorussian and Russian cultures.
Calling it Ukrainian is about as correct as calling Ancient Rome culture Italian.

 

[Remorseless1]

Cultures evolve, as do all things human. Chinese culture today isn't close to what the Chin and the Cup did. However, the important part is that Ukraine, like the Czech Republic or Croatia are and have been for decades internationally recognized as independent nation states, and neighboring states are not supposed to invade those sovereign nations. No matter what the Russian justification or mindset, to almost everyone else it looks like a large nation invading a smaller neighboring country in order to impose itself on that smaller nation. The US experienced this during our Iraq and Afghanistan adventures. After a while, few other countries cared about 9/11 as the US's justification amid the slaughter, torture, and destruction. Putin was foolish if he thought the rest of the world, particularly Europe, were just going to let him gobble up a fellow European country.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

besides, does he have a receipt?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Cultures can survive even if the nation state, used to, never did, did or does under new management. "Greece" is a good example. The evolving Greek culture has been around for ~3500 years under numerous different guises that were often nothing alike. "Greek nation" states have only been a small part of those years. The persistence of the Greek language in a geographic area is what makes parts of the eastern Aegean "Greek".

 

[r16]

watch for your East and West or whatever . What's Greek in Eastern Aegean is clear since like 1947 in a figure of speech . Or at least win the glorious thing up North , so that you won't be tying yellow ribbons waiting for the boys to come home .

 

[Kyriakos]

watch for your East and West or whatever . What's Greek in Eastern Aegean is clear since like 1947 in a figure of speech . Or at least win the glorious thing up North , so that you won't be tying yellow ribbons waiting for the boys to come home .

Sic semper to those with no geographical knowledge. Or historical
Then again, apart from basic type 1 (east/west), there is basic type 2, about the number of seas in the region.

 

[r16]

lack of attention should indeed be the best way . Otherwise like Americans mad (at the Kurdish treason like a day before they might or might not keep voting against the PM) and deciding that they should fix the Troyan War would be a sight to behold . Not that ı wouldn't like the opportunity .

 

[Birdjaguar]

Perhaps you all would prefer "Eastern Mediterranean". But that seems to broad to me. I did remove "eastern" from my post above to not make it seem like I was giving the Turkish mainland to Greece.

 

[Zardnaar]

Rhink ancient borders are irrelevant if you've signed up for the UN.

 

[innonimatu]

Cultures can survive even if the nation state, used to, never did, did or does under new management. "Greece" is a good example. The evolving Greek culture has been around for ~3500 years under numerous different guises that were often nothing alike. "Greek nation" states have only been a small part of those years. The persistence of the Greek language in a geographic area is what makes parts of the eastern Aegean "Greek".

What, a rare thread not about (albeit started because) current stupid contemporary events? Nice, may drop something.

I would argue, but lack the time now, that Greece as a "nation" or civilization is only about 2500 years old. Its "dark age" was a big discontinuity. They not only deurbanized, had the prior polities collapse and eventually reorganize, they even changed the script system. Claiming continuity would be akin to say that the european union is the third coming of the roman empire and 2000 years old (or 2750). It isn't.

 

[Angst]

That wasn't the view of Victor Hugo, Lord Byron, E.A. Poe or other names people are likely to have heard about. There are also the claims of the actual revolutionaries, which explicitly speak of Greece and restoring the greek civilization. And while the bulk weren't very literate (tends to happen with aeons of slavery), some were important for Europe as a whole, including the first governor of Greece, Ioannes Kapodistrias (former foreign minister of the russian empire, of greek descent) and Alexander Ypsilantes.
All that said, obviously Greece did have many states in the ancient era, so it is dumb to claim there was "no greek state" then (a bit similar to claiming there was no "german" state prior to 1871, just because it wasn't one state but two major powers and many smaller ones). There was even a large greek kingdom which came into contact (including war) with China, along with Seleucid, Ptolemaic empires, roughly 50 different city states, various blocks and leagues. In fact more greek countries from the ancient era are significantly known, studied and recorded, than non-greek ones.
Of note might be the sense of "crimes against hellenism", used by both sides during the peloponnesian war, or Alexander's "Alexander and the Greeks, apart from the Lacedemonians" campaign against Persia; a greek world was common knowledge.
Greek revolts didn't just happen in 1821 btw. There were hundreds of them since 1453.

While nationalism isn't nice, being against history is even worse.

the point is that none of those ancient states are actually congruent with the modern conception of greece.

the point is that if greece is a True Valid continuation of identity, it's in actuality so fickle that so is ukraine.

my own view on this; i'd argue that denmark albeit a starker continuation of sovereignty and culture since christianization, much more so than greece (sorry), has no real connection to those times. one shouldn't get blinded by symbols, language and territory. they aren't the same thing, even if they look the same; i didn't realize dannebrog was a cross until my late teens, since i was so used to looking at it like a geometric thing that happened to be "my" flag. and some people, usually for bleak reasons, want to continue the throughline even past the christians.

for ukraine, even if i'm wrong, if one is to argue other countries have some ancient ties, so does ukraine. within the logic of that, ukraine has the claim on heritage, not russia.

(sidenote, i blink uncomfortably whenever russians make strides to argue as to the integrity of ukraine as a nation.)

(also uh kyriakos please also understand that whether greek revolutionaries were personally important to the rest of europe is kind of completely irrelevant here. i now you like to gush about your history, but there's a distinct importance of parsing here. <3)

 

[Kyriakos]

the point is that none of those ancient states are actually congruent with the modern conception of greece.

the point is that if greece is a True Valid continuation of identity, it's in actuality so fickle that so is ukraine.

my own view on this; i'd argue that denmark albeit a starker continuation of sovereignty and culture since christianization, much more so than greece (sorry), has no real connection to those times. one shouldn't get blinded by symbols, language and territory. they aren't the same thing, even if they look the same; i didn't realize dannebrog was a cross until my late teens, since i was so used to looking at it like a geometric thing that happened to be "my" flag. and some people, usually for bleak reasons, want to continue the throughline even past the christians.

for ukraine, even if i'm wrong, if one is to argue other countries have some ancient ties, so does ukraine. within the logic of that, ukraine has the claim on heritage, not russia.

(sidenote, i blink uncomfortably whenever russians make strides to argue as to the integrity of ukraine as a nation.)

(also uh kyriakos please also understand that whether greek revolutionaries were personally important to the rest of europe is kind of completely irrelevant here. i now you like to gush about your history, but there's a distinct importance of parsing here. <3)

I don't gush about history. Denmark wasn't occupied for centuries, so it makes perfect sense for it to be a far more direct continuation.
My point is that, while all can be heir to ancient Greece etc, it'd be sort of cool if the actual people here can be at least as much heirs to it, if not a bit more due to obvious links (language and locality)

 

[Yeekim]

"Putin: "Ukraine is an artificial creation of Lenin".

Voltaire in 1731: "Ukraine has always aspired to be free".

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661279718665068545

 

[Snowygerry]

I don't gush about history. Denmark wasn't occupied for centuries, so it makes perfect sense for it to be a far more direct continuation.
My point is that, while all can be heir to ancient Greece etc, it'd be sort of cool if the actual people here can be at least as much heirs to it, if not a bit more due to obvious links (language and locality)

Nationalism is a very modern invention, and all in all an artificial construction,

the history of the city of Gent for example predates the history of the nation state of Belgium by many centuries, arguably I'm more "linked" to the people that walked these same streets 500 years or a 1000 years ago, than to some Belgians in the 1800s.

In Greece your cities are many times older even, isn't it much the same there ?