Statue of Zeus vs. Knights Templar

[eldar]

SoZ trumps KT all the time.
1) SoZ is cheaper (but then it's half an era earlier, so what do you expect?)
2) ACs are better units than Crusaders: the extra hit point & movement far outweighs the 5-3-1 stats.
3) KT expires way too quickly for my liking. I would never pre-build it, in fact I don't even look at building wonders from scratch until Copernicus [except in 20K games of course, then KT is a fantastic addition if you can squeeze it in]. So by the time it's done, I'd get probably 5 or 6 Crusaders before hitting Steam Power anyway.

The only thing Crusaders are good for, IMHO, is disbanding for 17 shields to allow first-turn rushing of Factories and Coal Plants at normal cost rather than double cost.

 

[Ansar]

The only thing Crusaders are good for, IMHO, is disbanding for 17 shields to allow first-turn rushing of Factories and Coal Plants at normal cost rather than double cost.

Ah yes, I forgot about mentioning that.

And here I thought I was the only one who did that with crusaders.

 

[AznWarlord]

No way, I disband crusaders for my new cities that don't produce much shields. I think a lot of people find Crusaders usefu as well.

 

[Desertsnow]

You know, both SoZ and KT are probably both highly useful in OOC games. You get lots of units for your one city.

 

[Aceman101]

Your forgetting the fact that the city that built the SOZ is not only getting the free unit but also building its own unit/improvement at the same time.
Double your pleasure, double your fun!!

Doesn't he mean while SOZ is being built?

 

[Capt Cook]

Doesn't he mean while SOZ is being built?

Yes he does. But, my point is that with either the SOZ or KT , after it is built, you are getting 2 builds at the same time.
I would love to build them both but I never seem to get the chance.
Just imagine, 2 cities, one with each wonder, getting a free unit every 5 turns plus getting their normal builds. You could build up one heck of an army of shock troops!!

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I view both SOZ and KT as simple investments with a return value.

Ancient Cavalries are worth 50 shields and the crusaders are worth 60 . (50 and 70 are their value in disbanding. 50 for AC is right on the spot i think compared to other units, when i compare crusaders with knights, i would prefer to have knights. Therefore, i value crusaders at 60 shields)

SOZ: pay 200, get 10 per turn.
KT: pay 300, get 12 per turn.

 

[Aceman101]

Yes he does. But, my point is that with either the SOZ or KT , after it is built, you are getting 2 builds at the same time.
I would love to build them both but I never seem to get the chance.
Just imagine, 2 cities, one with each wonder, getting a free unit every 5 turns plus getting their normal builds. You could build up one heck of an army of shock troops!!

Yeah, but my problem usually is that I have already to much troops and I get even more from KT. That makes me in debt but I don't want to disband them either.

But in war times, SOZ and KT are great!

 

[Desertsnow]

So declare war. More cities = more unit support.

 

[Aceman101]

Yes, I have declared on China and I've got +15 gold per turn @30% lux and 40% science.

 

[Sweetchuck]

Problem with capping AI cities during war is the population.

Pop a few cities and declare peace, or starve down the city and continue on.

Starving the cities is costly in terms of turns and rebuilding, and keeping low-pop cities is almost useless.

So either ice the cities and grab the free labor, or take a handfull of them and declare peace and rework from there to fight another day.

Or you can just take them over and hope that the war weariness isn't that taxing on the foriegn citizens while you're stomping their mother country to bits - which isn't the worst of things actually. You just don't get efficiency from those cities initially.

 

[AznWarlord]

What I don't get is whenever the opponent builds either Wonder, I only see like one or two of the free units. Whateer happens to the others? They just seem to disappear on them.

 

[Aceman101]

They probably disband them because they can't afford any more units.

 

[Goldenbow]

Because i always is playing at the scandinavia so is the Crusader 5-3-1 poor against a Berzerk 6-2-1 +marine.

The Ancient Cavalry and Crusader should be ugraded to something?!

 

[Sashie VII]

Not really, let the Crusader attack the Berserk and they'll do fine

 

[Abegweit]

I view both SOZ and KT as simple investments with a return value.

Ancient Cavalries are worth 50 shields and the crusaders are worth 60 . (50 and 70 are their value in disbanding. 50 for AC is right on the spot i think compared to other units, when i compare crusaders with knights, i would prefer to have knights. Therefore, i value crusaders at 60 shields)

SOZ: pay 200, get 10 per turn.
KT: pay 300, get 12 per turn.

I disagree with this evaluation. An AC is almost as good as a Knight and definitely much better than a Crusader. On top of the that, the wonder is cheaper and lasts longer. The extra HP of the AC is almost equivalent to the extra attack point of the Knight. The main disadvantage WRT to Knights is that it is not as good in armies. The attack strength of single units is about the same though.

For example, Bomber's Combat Calc says that the Knight will win 79.4% of the time against a reg spear fortified on grass while the AC actually wins 80.1% of the time. As the defense gets stronger, the Knight is relatively better but they are still very close. The AC will win 48.5% of the time against a pike fortified on a hill while the Knight pushes it up to 50.3%.

SoZ is simply great value for the money. The only other early wonders even worth considering are the GLight and Leo's.

 

[denyd]

I prefer the KT for a couple of reasons if my UU is a Knight replacement since I was going to research Chivalry anyway. The main reason is that 3 Crusaders fill out a new Army to become a 7-4-2 and later a 10-6-2 (with Pentagon). If I'm in a warfare based game there's usually a couple of MGLs appearing early in the MA that become armies and I'd rather load them with Crusaders than Knights. The extra movement point allows them to stay with my Knight unit and protects them from virtually all AI counter-attacks. And at 7 (or 10) attacking they can take the top defender (or 2) off most cities up until Infantry arrive on the scene. My other reason is that I normally only have time for XOTM games, so it's quite rare to have access to ivory, so SoZ just isn't available. What I prefer to do is make sure my neighbor with ivory gets Mathematics early and then I take SoZ from him soon after he completes it. For the 200 shields I can build a SOD and take it from my neighbor.

Just curious, but has anyone here actually used a crusader to build fortifications?

 

[Sashie VII]

Just curious, but has anyone here actually used a crusader to build fortifications?

I did, a few times. Had a few extra sitting around, and my workers have other stuff to do, so they get fort duty.

 

[Aceman101]

Is it unusual for someone to build barricades around their whole continent so ships can't unload they're troops?

 

[Sashie VII]

Why not let them unload and get free leader chances with those AA elites hanging around?

I barricade in certain circumstances only, i.e. in one game I 'm invading the north, and need one choke to hold while I strike the other choke on a mid-continentallake.