Steampunk World Scenario

[KingArthur]

Ah but jlvfr a cloudbuster is more original and much more fun. It might have made a cool sound too - Google Vortex Cannon e.g.

http://www.break.com/web-user-yt/08...n-bang-goes-the-theory-preview-bbc-one-881454

some more info including the Electric Cannon (one for you jlvfr)

 

[Blue Monkey]

No apology necessary, jlvfr. All the little paragraphs i've written over the time of this whole project are helping to develop some background. Even worked out a steam-powered spacecraft. We're also starting to develop what may become a unified background (world history & timeline) for several of the scenarios. When the finished scenario is released the 'pedia may contain these sort of scientifictions.

more fragments of ancient correspondence -

Spoiler :

No. This was actually built, but the boilers were too weak to make it move very much.

And I believe the place it falls in the tech tree, at least in our scenario, is after Automata. So why would there need to be gun crews at all? Furthermore, why would one assume it is using steam, strictly defined?

Since publication of the details is restricted under the Official Secrets Act of 1889 I will just say that the motive force is provided by an engine encorporating the key technologies of the Maestrofoon, W. G. Armstrong, & Du Tremblay designs. Such a combination reduces engine size, eliminates the need for large boilers or capacious fuel reserves, deals with the exhaust profile issue, and provides auxilliary power for electrickal illumination and fire control Babbage engines. And, it must be pointed out, the previous correspondent has completely misunderstood the scale of the vehicle - which is more comparable to the Wells device under construction than to a rude farmer's tractor. Sufficient room for the small crew required.

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I'm not familiar enough with what type of metals or construction techniques would be needed to build an engine to say with certainty, but the ancient South Indians & Sri Lankans may have been capable of at least producing the metals themselves.

A special steel known as wootz, which contains traces of both titanium & vanadium because of the particular source mine, was produced as early as 300 BCE. This steel is considered superior to anything produced in Europe until the modern era. Knowledge of the metallurgy & manufacturing techniques involved in wootz was lost when the primary ore source was exhausted.

Recent reproductions, both physical & computer modeled, of a particular type of wind-driven furnace used during monsoon season prove that it was capable of temperatures in the 1100 - 1500 C° range. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of metallurgy would know if the combination of this type of furnace & the alloys in wootz would be sufficient for production of metals that could withstand the pressures of a steam engine.

Given the intense trade between Egypt and Rome & the Cheras who ruled the western ports of India, one might posit the export of such metals. If the Alexandrian engineers had access to large quantities of metals whose manufacture the Indians in fact kept a closely guarded secret, and exported only as swords, they may have been able to build engines. Indian legends speak of both self-propelled vehicles & automata that were worthy of battlefield use. Perhaps some of these were steam-powered. Edit: Vedas & shastras (scientific knowledge framed in poetic mnemonics) refer to craft powered by "fire & water".

Edit 2.0: If we allow legendary sources as at least preliminary evidence (think of Troy), there are parts of the Mahabharata that speak of tri-metal alloys, closed-cycle mercury vapor engines, electrically powered vehicles, and engined fueled by coconut oil (bio-diesel?). If Sanskrit has a specific word for mechanical contrivances ("yantra") and compound words describing specific types of such machines, perhaps they actually existed in some form.

Into this debate I submit a wonderful book which I have only just begun to appreciate, and which could certainly alter some tech trees: A Descriptive and Historical Account of Hydraulic and Other Machines by Thomas Ewbank, pub. 1876. So far I've found descriptions of ancient Iron Clad Ships ("The Syracusan" built by Archimedes p. 146), "The Wheel of Fortune" of Egypt, The "Cauldrons of the Lesbians" and, pertinent to this discussion, descriptions of both Stone and Wooden steam boilers (Woodpunk?) (p.470). Descriptions of the internal combustion engine, called 'explosive and vapor engines' in following pages are both interesting and hilarious - Ewbanks generally thinks they will never work efficiently or catch on. He also mentions engines that use distilled alcohol vapor - interesting, given that both alcohol and distilling existed in the Ancient world.

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This spacecraft design isn't steampunk, it's a modern design concept. Read the article. Then put on your thinking caps. The names mentioned below are all historical. I've taken the liberty of shifting people chronologically since I'm using them as analogously rather than particular individuals. No imaginary technologies - just pushing known ones to the extreme. "We steam engine come steam engining time".

Design
The Victorians had the materials technology to handle superheated steam. Watt could have extended his design work to further miniaturize engines while continuing to increase their efficiency & output. Solar-powered devices were demonstrated in ancient China. Practical experiments were going on by the mid-19th c. Surely in a Steampunk AH someone like Tesla could have pursued these lines of research even further. Add an imaginative pair of bicycle mechanics interested in building ultralight vehicles. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine Brunel putting together a a team of boffins &engineers. Designing & building such a craft becomes far plausible than the existence of Cavorite. Definitely more maneuverable than anything designed by the Baltimore Gun Club.

The chief difficulty as a practical form of transport would be the extremely slow starting speeds. Picture our solar energy boffin having a conversation with Griffeths about the design of extreme clippers. Fortuitously he had recently been reviewing the work of Carrington, Fitzgerald and Birkeland on solar ejecta & auroral activity. Solar wind! Add sails of sufficient thinness, yet with great tensile strength & dimensional stability. Brunel would probably have to consult Monell on the creation of a special alloy. But a practical design for an aetheric packet ship is achieved.

Docking & Launch Facilities
We have the design & the construction. But such a craft could not launch itself from the Earth. Even Barbicane could not find a way for it to survive the pressure of a ballistic launch. Consult Tsiolkovsky. Add Eiffel (structural design) to the team. Would probably need Shukhov & Fuller to get past the limitations of compression structures. Otis converts Clegg and Samuda's patented system of atmospheric traction to vertical shafts. Have Watt build them a stationary engine to drive the pulleys & the vaccum pumps - probably using a sun & planet gear system.

I. K. Brunel before the counterweight chain used by the freight lift during construction of the 35 km. tower near the hill station at Sigiriya.

Funding
Brunel could certainly find & mange the brilliant team required. But who could fund a megaengineering project requiring international cooperation? The Morgan-Rothschild Investment Partnership, LLC of course. With Lloyd's as guarantor. If they prove too conservative to invest the author of The Dynamics of An Asteroid would certainly have the imagination, scientific and practical interest & resources.

Now if i can only keep people like Stirling, Jeter & Barnes from hearing about this.

Hmmmm.... a spaceship with a structure designed by Eiffel, and built by the Engineers of the day would doubtless look very different from the picture shown. The 'modules' might be designed like pneumatic-subway cars, the water-holding parts like ornate metal bladders. The 'solar array' might look like giant black fins, ribbed to allow the sun to heat the water elements. In the front, perhaps, a huge ornate ball in which the crew would do most of it's work and life, perhaps revolving on an axis in order to create gravity inside. In all, it might resemble a gigantic fish with a revolving ball where the head would be. That impression might be strengthened by the placement of huge lenses near the front of the craft which would, by means of mirrors, send light traveling around and down through tubes into the center of the 'work ball', allowing the crew to 'see' the space around them without the disorientation that the use of windows in the revolving ball might produce, and by the many long thin antennas needed for long distance communication.

On the other hand, once you get Eiffel involved, the design could be modified dramatically:

The craft is ultralight & uses a combination of solar sails & other solar collection tech, with steam instead of ignited fuel for thrust. I like the fish idea - huge fins like a Siamese Fighting Fish.

All the section about Eiffel, etc. is to construct a space elevator to get the flimsy pieces to orbit for assembly. With side benefits of other uses - such as a resort & permanent Crystal Palace. "Sigiriya hill station" is a tip of the hat to A. C. Clarke. I do like that image you posted.

Thanks for that link. There are some great images there. Always on the lookout for steampunk that is from a wider world than Victorian Europe. The metal kraken was especially intriguing.

 

[Blue Monkey]

KA - that site requests too many cookies for my taste. An excerpt from the same program is on youtube. Outstanding invention!

EDIT: Now that there's a searchable name - "vortex cannon" - seems like there's a lot of interest & actual builds. Plenty of stuff on the net. Even the military has shown some interest. The BBC site has a set of lesson plans including a construction guide.

 

[jlvfr]

Soooo... any news on a possible new version of the scenario?

 

[Blue Monkey]

We are working on it. As is customary, real life gets busy just when there is a lot to be done. In my case, for example, I've been out of town on business 3 times in the last month.

If there were a sort of thermometer thingy to count posts in the private subforum plus the time spent at our computers doing the work and a barometer thingy to show when we are using the creative juices with or without a computer you'd be surprised how much activity is going on.

Have you tried playing as one of the less likely factions? Playing as the smaller civs often reveals things about a scenario that are otherwise easy to overlook.

 

[jlvfr]

No worries, thougth you might have been abducted to Mards by some weird forcve

And I think I've tried them all now, but the minor ones are too troubled by the swamp/jungle terrain to be able to do anything...

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm working on a Mars map - but long distance.

Know what you mean about the minor civs. Played a lot as the "evil geniuses". Can keep the Euros off my back but the Chinese roll over us sooner or later. But it just warms my heart every time R'lyeh is building a Music Hall ... gotta take a screenshot of that one.

 

[KingArthur]

I have been working on improving the Moriarty faction - a Giant Mechanical Spider for instance.

I've been putting off the less fun parts like the Civilopedia. Must crack on. Thanks for caring jlvfr

 

[Blue Monkey]

Maybe there's a place for a Jiang Shi in China's unit line? The Tsui Hark film mentioned over there is set in the 19th c.

 

[Erebras]

I cannot tell. The last posting on this particular thread was three months ago. I just downloaded and installed the beta version of Steampunk Worlds and Steampunk Earth, which I presume are the most recent incarnations of this project. Without playing it, but just loading it up and seeing it, I can say it looks great.
What's not so great are the Civilopedia entries and associated icon images. It seems most modmakers leave the actual game instructions and descriptions for last, if they bother to do it at all. What I am getting at is would you like me to proofread what has already been done, and finish the remainder? I have more to say, but I'll wait until I get a response from one of the project leaders.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I know the offer of help is appreciated. As is the bump/reminder. It will be up to King Arthur whether or not to use it. If not, we may hit you up for pedia help on one of the other scenarios.

 

[Erebras]

Forgive me if I merely failed to notice any discussion on the Tribes used in this scenario. Two of the civilizations consist of Native Americans (Great Sioux Nation [leaderhead] or Iroquois Confederacy [description]?) and Mesoamericans (not readily identifiable which group). If these scenarios are based on the 19th century, why are these two groups represented as full, non-declining or non-assimilated peoples? "In 1817, the Cherokee became the first Native Americans recognized as U.S. citizens...In 1857, Chief Justice Roger B. Taney expressed the opinion of the court that since Native Americans were "free and independent people" that they could become U.S. citizens...In 1871 Congress added a rider to the Indian Appropriations Act ending United States recognition of additional Native American tribes or independent nations, and prohibiting additional treaties." These excerpts come from a simple wikipedia search; I'm sure something similar concerning Central and South American tribes can be found. Is the position of the modmakers that the more interesting scenarios would be set on some sort of alternate Earth where Spain, Portugal, and Britain failed to gain significant footholds in the Americas?

 

[Erebras]

Certainly, I understand that there are only eight or so civs from which to choose, so I'm not commenting on why the Republic of Liberia or New South Wales are unrepresented. I mean, where is Mexico or New Spain, and where is the United States? I'm not coming at this from the stance of an uneducated hic from Appalachia. I'm trying to establish how Aztlán and Wyoming got the drop on greedy, metalworking, gunsmithing, post-Plague Europeans.

 

[Erebras]

Now I'm on a roll...and it's not offtopic. Sci-fi aspects aside, one thing I discovered in my research (for my own mods), which I never realized before, was that "Industrial whaling emerged with organized fleets in the 17th century; competitive national whaling industries in the 18th and 19th centuries; and the introduction of factory ships along with the concept of whale harvesting in the first half of the 20th century." Yeah, Wikipedia strikes again, but since you're setting the scenarios in such a narrow stretch of the historical (and ahistorical) timeline, perhaps you would consider a small wonder or city improvement reflecting this newly-emerging technology (whaling). Doesn't compare with gravity-blocking chemical elements, I know, but...

 

[Erebras]

It appears a common character in the steampunk artwork I've been looking at is some sort of gigantic, bronzeish automaton that fits the genre nicely. Without having to completely design such a thing, aaglo years ago made a rather nice hammer-wielding giant. The giant's run animation looks unnatural (for a giant) and there's some sort of plate on its back; I chalk it up to an early attempt at unit creation (especially considering aaglo's later work). The point is that if one were to import a different color palette and maybe slow down or otherwise alter the speed of the flcs, it should turn out to be an excellent steampunk robot.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Erebras - have you looked through any of the more general threads or only this one? There have been extensive discussions prior to this scenario being posted. And it's only one of several in various stages of development. Each one takes a slightly different approach.

 

[Erebras]

I can appreciate that, Blue Monkey. I'm waiting for King Arthur to get back to me about the editing, and I was just being conversational while I waited. I'm more curious about the whole matter more than anything else. I figured someone in the know would sum it up in a nutshell for me.

 

[KingArthur]

I'll take you up on your offer for Civilopedia work - it's a vital step to finishing this project off. Since the beta upload I have not done any work on the Steampunk World scenario. I lost interest in it but it's been nagging me lately and I want to finish it off. One thing I want to ditch is the map and concentrate only on the random map biq. The civ list changes quite a bit and I will post more details tonight. For now all you need to know is that there are 3 categories of civs: minor local powers that don't progress beyond rifle and cavalry but have high growth; major powers that have access to all aspects of the tech tree and 1 city civs for oddballs (non-playable) that will have some exaggerated characteristic e.g. a very powerful unit or heaps of treasure...

 

[Erebras]

So, KingArthur, with me revising and completing the Civilopedia, I have a few questions:

1. Do you have a list of the tech advances and units that delineate what their strengths, requirements or effects are? For example, a unit may have terraforming abilities, or an improvement requires a form of government, or a wonder may require several of an improvement. Otherwise, I can just go down the line in CivEdit and see what each thing does.
2. Are you okay with me cutting and pasting descriptions from wikipedia? It's the go-to place for open source content. Also, I learned from The Rood and the Dragon that quotes can also be useful in an entry, so if you have famous lines you'd like to include, let me know.
3. I intend to just upload the latest revision of the text file on this thread here, and just keep reuploading it with the updated version until it's done. I don't see the need to PM you with it, unless that's what you'd prefer.
4. Do you want me to describe the different categories of civs -- minor powers, major powers, single city -- in the Civilopedia, or is that supposed to be a surprise for the players to find out?

Hmm, I guess that's all the questions I have at the moment.

 

[KingArthur]

1. I have a spreadsheet that gives a lot of info and I've shared it online here
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=3a56e2b0320cb68d.
You may have to dig into the biq for some stuff.

2. Copy/Paste from Wikipedia is totally fine.

3. Sounds like a plan.

4. Yes I think that would be good.

If I were you I'd concentrate on TECHS, BLDGS and WONDERS first as these will not change. CIVS and UNITS are likely to change so leave them for later when I will get an updated biq to you.

Only other thing to say is thanks again.