Stem cells

[inthesomeday]

My ideal state is none yo

 

[Arent11]

My ideal state is none yo

But then you won't have complex medical infrastructure & then you can't give anyone medical help for free.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

You obviously need to strike a balance between the interests of the "poor" and the "working class". If you don't do that, your "ideal state" won't work.

I still don't know what exactly your are on about.
What "ideal state"? I thought we merely talked about universal healthcare. I suppose that is an ideal state of affairs of his own. And certainly universal healthcare requires some sort of balancing of interests. But where exactly enters exploitation or slavery the equation, to your mind?

 

[inthesomeday]

But then you won't have complex medical infrastructure & then you can't give anyone medical help for free.

Why do you think that is? Infrastructure is built by people. Medicine is produced in factories. Neither of those things require a government to operate.

 

[Arent11]

I still don't know what exactly your are on about.
What "ideal state"? I thought we merely talked about universal healthcare. I suppose that is an ideal state of affairs of his own. And certainly universal healthcare requires some sort of balancing of interests. But where exactly enters exploitation or slavery the equation, to your mind?

I thought we were talking about providing healthcare for the whole world. Which is, of course, a kind of "universal healthcare" as well.

Work needs time. Time is an important ressource, for example to learn, play civilization 6 or found a family. Let's say you are one of the few people capable of doing complex, medical related work. Now I tell you you have to work very hard every single day to provide healthcare for the rest of the world. You will of course object that you would rather play civilization 6 or drink a nice smoothie. Then I tell you that someone poor on the other side of the world is dying because you are being so egoistical. You, of course, state that you don't even know them & whether they can't learn to perform such medical work themselves. I tell you: They don't need to, you have to work for them for free and without any condition whatsoever. You will object that this is the definition of slavery.

 

[Arent11]

Why do you think that is? Infrastructure is built by people. Medicine is produced in factories. Neither of those things require a government to operate.

Why would they do that? They could just steal the infrastructure/machines/equipment instead of building it. That saves a lot of time you can use to play civilization 6 instead

 

[inthesomeday]

Why would they do that? They could just steal the infrastructure/machines/equipment instead of building it. That saves a lot of time you can use to play civilization 6 instead

You can't steal what already belongs to you. Infrastructure is the collective property of all the society that benefits from it. If people are to be producing the medicine themselves then they will distribute it among the people free. If they refuse to do so, or if they attempt to claim private ownership over this fundamental human necessity, then the product (medicine) must be taken by force.

 

[El_Machinae]

If you want medicine for people, the best place for social investment is on the supply side. If you're funding research, then opportunists will trawl through that research in order to find ways to make a profit. The more research is funded at the base level, the less room there is for the opportunist to carve out a monopoly on his patent.

Supply side is what brings down the costs in the long run. You don't even need to care about the patents, as long as you care about future people. An effective medicine today that goes off-patent later is a huge amount better than no medicine later. And an expensive medicine today doesn't remove the market incentive to make a cheaper and less effective medicine today, either.

When the government or charity hires us to invent, that's what we do. Most of us just get wages to work. Einstein didn't need a patent on his nuclear bomb. The government just hired him to do it.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I thought we were talking about providing healthcare for the whole world. Which is, of course, a kind of "universal healthcare" as well.

Work needs time. Time is an important ressource, for example to learn, play civilization 6 or found a family. Let's say you are one of the few people capable of doing complex, medical related work. Now I tell you you have to work very hard every single day to provide healthcare for the rest of the world. You will of course object that you would rather play civilization 6 or drink a nice smoothie. Then I tell you that someone poor on the other side of the world is dying because you are being so egoistical. You, of course, state that you don't even know them & whether they can't learn to perform such medical work themselves. I tell you: They don't need to, you have to work for them for free and without any condition whatsoever. You will object that this is the definition of slavery.

In Germany we used to have a mandatory year of civil service as an alternative to a year of mandatory military service. You could have something similar in the medical profession, I suppose. Calling that kind of thing slavery certainly seems like a hyperbole to me. You would be paid, also, just not that well, and you would still have all your basic rights, certainly a ton more than a draftee. Being immortal, kinda, would seem to allow to spend some time in mandatory public service without missing out on much.
But having said that, I don't think universal healthcare is a feasible goal without depending on a country enjoying it doing its own job. Richer nations could support that effort in all kinds of ways, but even rich nations hardly have the means to provide the full range of expensive health services to the entirety of world. But Cuba seems to teach that you do not need to be very rich to achieve that goal with some quality. How that hold up in the case of a hypothetical immortality therapy is a different questions.
I think we have already achieved a lot of we got to make that universally available on a national level. But yes, some harsh conflicts over that privilege are, I am afraid, unavoidable, and thus would definitely be interesting times.

 

[Ryika]

You can't steal what already belongs to you. Infrastructure is the collective property of all the society that benefits from it. If people are to be producing the medicine themselves then they will distribute it among the people free. If they refuse to do so, or if they attempt to claim private ownership over this fundamental human necessity, then the product (medicine) must be taken by force.

So why would they, or anybody, produce it if they can't use it an a good that they can exchange for other, beneficial goods?

 

[Arent11]

I think we have already achieved a lot of we got to make that universally available on a national level. But yes, some harsh conflicts over that privilege are, I am afraid, unavoidable, and thus would definitely be interesting times.

I agree that you can archive that locally, although I personally would tie such help to certain conditions. I also agree that you would need to make some compromise to avoid the "harsh conflicts" you mention.

 

[inthesomeday]

So why would they, or anybody, produce it if they can't use it an a good that they can exchange for other, beneficial goods?

They wouldn't need to, those goods would also be available free.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Cool story bro

 

[Arent11]

They wouldn't need to, those goods would also be available free.

She was asking why they should produce anything. Which was also my question.

If they produce something, they loose an important ressource, namely time. They don't get anything to compensate their loss of time. So, it would be disadvantageous for them to work efficiently, be innovative - or work at all.

You can't steal what already belongs to you. Infrastructure is the collective property of all the society that benefits from it.

Nope, it's not "collective property". It's the property of those politicians that control it. And these politicians will quickly realize that they hold the power & can use that property to further their own interests.