Strategic Resources

[Thibaulthc]

I will try to condensate all our ideas about SR improvements here

horses:

• required for Circus Maximus
• racetracks c5gold: and )
• equitation centers c5gold
• becomes a luxury in modern era
• ...

iron

• ironclads require coal and iron (if possible to use two resources for one unit)
• becomes a luxury (pans)
• create new SR steel
• ...

steel
(SR create from iron)

• required for San Francisco wonder
• bridges (allow railroad connections through river)
• skyscrapers (boost , +0.5/, or +20% )
• ...

oil

• gas stations refineries c5gold
• cars (boost for each , or / )
• late aircrafts use aluminium and oil (if possible)
• ...

copper
(would become a strategy resource instead of luxury from industrial era (if moddable), or when discovering Electricity seems hardly feasible

• + 15% when improved near city for building stock exchange, hydro plant, ..., some sort of units,... like marble for wonders)
• robotic factories (boost )
• improve railroads (+25% instead of +15% for connected cities)
• required to build stock exchange
• ...

feel free to tell me what idea I forgot to add, which ones I should remove because they're bad or impossible to mod,...

 

[mystikx21]

Not sure how the AI would handle a unit that uses two resources? Someone else could speak to that I'm sure. I personally think using them up with other interesting choices makes more sense than essentially increasing the expensiveness of particular units.

Better to have buildings that boost things using up some of the minerals, both the old ones and the new (like nuclear power does with uranium). Steel could just be "iron" applied a modern context. We could come up with uses for copper instead.

Not sure how cars would boost production. They're more of a commerce or happiness function (people living out in burbs?) and they actually can produce productivity losses from traffic and pollution. Computer networks and robots are much bigger productivity gains across the economy. Maybe a PCs/wifi "building" or robotic factory? Gas stations aren't the source of profits either for oil, I'd call them "refineries" if you're going that route.

I was thinking of something like horse racing for modern uses of horses. That one seems quite good. And skyscrapers look like a popular notion.

 

[Ahriman]

Why should all strategic resources be useful all game long? I don't think that should be the design goal. In real history, iron and horse sources became unimportant in the modern era.

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree, especially with horses. ^

Still, it's worth considering from a gameplay perspective, and I'm willing to try ideas. I revert to earlier versions when ideas don't work out.

 

[Thibaulthc]

yes, you are right
it shouldn't be as important as in early eras, but it still could be used
in bigger quantities

example:
-horses racetrack require 10 horses and provide 4 , or 2 and 2
-2 irons required to make 1 steel

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hmmm, I agree & disagree. Sure iron & horses are no longer *vital*-as they were in the pre-industrial era-but that doesn't mean they're not important either. I'd definitely be cool with seeing a modification that allows "redundant" resources to be used to build non-vital buildings & wonders.

Aussie.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'd rather approach consumption of SR by buildings not as "What can we do to keep them useful?" but instead "What can we do to make buildings more interesting?"

SRs could be added as a requirement for some buildings/Wonders of the same period they're militarily "strategic". Circus Maximus, for example. Do you build the CM and lose the ability to make X mounted units?

SRs for buildings after the SR's period could give us a building class between National Wonders and normal buildings: You're allowed to build more than one, but only if you've got the SRs. And multiple buildings could share SRs: "Do I build Automotive Factories in two cities or Skyscrapers in three, or a mix? Ally with Venice and make one more?"

 

[Ahriman]

"redundant" resources to be used to build non-vital buildings

The bonuses from the circus and and stables the furnace boost don't disappear.

SRs could be added as a requirement for some buildings/Wonders of the same period they're militarily "strategic".

The problem with this is that the AI is not going to be very intelligent about making military/civilian tradeoffs in deploying its strategic resources. I like the idea in theory, but I'm not sure it is very practical for this reason.

 

[Tarquelne]

The problem with this is that the AI is not going to be very intelligent about making military/civilian tradeoffs in deploying its strategic resources. I like the idea in theory, but I'm not sure it is very practical for this reason.

Could be. Though if the AI can be restricted via functions like Civ4's "canConstruct" it can be given some rules to keep it from being "particularly clueless," which should put it on par with the rest of the game.

 

[Dunkah]

Yes I would love to see a use for late SR use.

Perhaps make some of the older buildings expire or change the yields to improve happiness instead of whatever they are currently improving. This would require making the newer buildings stronger to compensate and balance but would force a player to concentrate on one type of building or another prioity wise to keep up a certain strategy...

Slightly off topic...

Is it possible to boost numbers of resources with buildings?

ex. Stables increase number of horses. Oil refinery increases the number of oil available? It would be a pretty cool way of being able to increase a resource that you lacking in.

 

[Ahriman]

If you could get free resources from buildings, that would weaken the whole point of strategic resources, which is that the limits should be binding. You should feel like you don't have enough of some resources - and thus the things they enable you to do are special.

There are already ways to get more resources - take more territory, trade with city states, or trade through diplomacy. I don't think we need another way which ends up increasing the total number of resources in the world and thus weakens the aggregate resource constraint.

 

[Dunkah]

No the idea would be that it only increases resources that you all ready have by say per building, and would cost maintenance costs. So someone who may be short on aluminum, would build it but not others.

It's like a strategic reserve, or recycling, or can drives. Ration Stamps etc...

 

[Ahriman]

It still increases the global amount of the resource (there were 32 aluminium across the world; now I construct a building and there are 33), and weakens the relative value of all the other mechanics that let you get resources (trade, city states, social policy, UAs).

In my view: everyone should be "short" of (for example) oil, in the sense that they'd like more. Oil should always be valuable because it will let you build an extra tank (or battleship), and tanks should be much better than infantry. Or because you could sell the oil to another player.
The resource constraints should be binding.

You shouldn't be able to satisfy your resource desires just by constructing more buildings; you should have to actually work for it in a way that competes with other players.

I could see, maybe, a national wonder that gives you a single copy of a particular resource, but not more than that - definitely not a building that could be built in multiple cities.

 

[Zaldron]

Hmmm, I agree & disagree. Sure iron & horses are no longer *vital*-as they were in the pre-industrial era-but that doesn't mean they're not important either. I'd definitely be cool with seeing a modification that allows "redundant" resources to be used to build non-vital buildings & wonders.

Aussie.

It would almost be interesting if there were a way to turn them into luxeries at some point (for example horseback riding as a passtime or cast iron pans could increase happiness/quality of life). We could probably do this with a building.

 

[Thibaulthc]

about creating resources: in G&K, the recycling center provides 2 aluminium, and each Civ may build 5 of them. So on a huge map this is 120 "free" alu added

 

[thadian]

It would almost be interesting if there were a way to turn them into luxeries at some point (for example horseback riding as a passtime or cast iron pans could increase happiness/quality of life). We could probably do this with a building.

You could probably create a horse luxury and have a certain tech replace ALL horses on all tiles in your empire with the luxury version. (The amount of horses on the tile would need to become 1 instead of say 3).

I hope you all arent sick of this idea but someone needs to do it:

City builds 1 Iron. When complete, a worker picks up the iron, goes to a plot and "plants" it. The iron would in effect, be an "item" like FFH Items. The Herdsman unit can already "pick up" and "plant" horses, so why not produce a resource to be "picked up"? Would be great fun, i promise.

A city would be able to produce the resources you want it to have, different resources available at different techs.

This gives players more control over their land and intent of use.

 

[Thalassicus]

The problem with this is that the AI is not going to be very intelligent about making military/civilian tradeoffs in deploying its strategic resources.

I'd like to emphasize I've done no testing to confirm or deny this hypothesis. There are some examples of dual building-unit strategic requirements (factories/ironclads and hydro plants/modern units), so logically the AI programmer would take this into consideration. However! The AI's design is not always logical, so this might have been overlooked. I don't know either way. Testing out resource requirements for early buildings would be a good way to figure out how this part of the game works.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Hey Thal, I know that this is kind of off-topic, but in the matter of resources, I was wondering if you could look at changing some of the current crop of luxury resources into bonus resources. The most glaring ones are copper & salt-though you might think of others. Also, any chance of having the mint work with copper, as well as gold & silver?

Aussie.

 

[wobuffet]

Hey Thal, I know that this is kind of off-topic, but in the matter of resources, I was wondering if you could look at changing some of the current crop of luxury resources into bonus resources. The most glaring ones are copper & salt-though you might think of others.

Historically speaking, salt was very important for human civilization as far as preserving food and such. I'm okay with it being important in gameplay (i.e., a luxury and not just a bonus).

Copper is a bit weird as a luxury though, I'll admit. I'd be okay with making it a Strategic and requiring it for Stock Exchanges or something (esp. if it turns out we want to curb later-game Gold output, as VEM did – to considerable success, I think).

We could promote Bananas to a tradeable Luxury to keep the balance (as far as number of resources of each type) the same – not too far a stretch, considering the historical prominence of the United Fruit Company and such.

Also, any chance of having the mint work with copper, as well as gold & silver?

The Mint was already modded in VEM to work with Gems. Honestly, though, I'd prefer something like +2 from Copper tiles upon discovering Electricity.

(Wikipedia tells me that 60% of Copper use today is in electrical wiring. 20% is for roofing/plumbing, 15% for industrial machinery, and 5% to make alloys like brass and bronze.)

 

[Thibaulthc]

To fit history, copper could become a strategic resource instead of a luxury when you discover electricity.