Study finds that prayer does not heal the sick

[El_Machinae]

I'd guess that this would be due to one inclination to pray in more severe cases (where the outcome is more likely to be fatal) than in lighter cases.

That's what I thought too, but in this study, the groups were randomized - so it was NOT the most desperate that needed prayer.

Maybe God 'put in the fix' when it came to randomization, so all the people that would NOT have been healed, except through prayer, were put into the prayer group? Then the numbers were jigged to make it look like there was no statistical benefit? God could then heal those He loved, and not be tested! Ha!

Personally, I have never made any such claim as to have healed anyone via long distance prayer.

But you have used long-distance prayer, though, assuming that it was a good thing to pray - right? I mean, you jokingly said that you'd pray for me, but may I assume that you've prayed for strangers? Foreign troops? AIDS victims? Tsunami victims?

 

[MobBoss]

Now, MobBoss: which part do you disagree with:

a study showed that praying for people who are sick doesn't help - it amy actually harm them. This study used one way of prayer (non-touch), which is the type of prayer usually advoacted by those who preach in church and ask the congregation to 'pray for the sick'.

I think considering the conditions of the test as conducted actually tended to heighten the patients anxiety level as opposed to providing any real comfort or help. As for people in church praying for sick people - people die irregardless of prayer all the time. Every once in a great while something miraculous may occur, but generally people still die, even if a whole congregation prays for them. You see, while all prayers may be heard, certainly not all prayers are answered. Any christian will tell you this. Thats biblical and is explained in the bible. Man's wishes are not necessarily part of Gods plan. How does one measure this? Once again, I am hardly convinced that physical science can be used to examine and measure spiritual issues.

You claim that this is the wrong method, but you refuse to bring any proof that your way is actually different in results. Your argumentation parallels that of the people who's way of praying for the sick was tested - you claim personal experience with results beyond pure chance.

The proof is not mine to bear. Any of my personal experience brought forth would be simply discounted by an atheist like you regardless. If one is going attempt to measure the healing power of prayer, it only makes sense to me that at the very least such a test be conducted as close as possible to how it was done in the bible. To me that is logical. This was not done in this test however.

Thus, I place the burden of proof with you: show how praying for the sick helps.

As I said before, the proof is not mine to provide. Seek it out for yourself. Personally, I believe in prayer and have seen its result. That is enough for me. If a single study like this under these conditions is all the proof you need then your question is answered.

Let me throw out this then: If the test had shown an increase in the healing time of those being prayed for would you have simply accepted the results or would you just discount them?

I think I know the answer to that.

 

[kingjoshi]

One point that I briefly thought about when proposing a second test for MobBoss bears repeating. You can't account for certain variables. I forgot how critical that was until I saw it at another website.

Does the congregation that "prays for the sick" help those people in the study that don't have specific people praying for them? You can't have a true control group in regards to prayer because you can't know the effects of all those people out there that pray. So studies are prayer are basically worthless. This one included.

EDIT: yes, it was atheists that spotted the error in the study.

EDIT2: of course, they could've been praying to the wrong God.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobboss: Honestly, if the study came back showing definitive improvement due to anonymous prayer - wouldn't you be crowing about it?

Not necessarily. I, for one, have never claimed any type of success at the type of long distance prayer done in this study. Any benefit that I have seen from prayer actually involves close contact with the person being prayed for - like that accident victim that I prayed for and her convulsions stopped (dont know if you remember that story or not).

Like I have said. Miracles do occur. But they are not common...thats what makes them miracles. There is no way to get a percentage on that and no real way to catalog it in my opinion.

 

[puglover]

Hokey because it doesn't deliver or for other reasons?

If the study proved it, I'm betting you'd be dancing in the street praising god's name (which IIRC is Fred).

"would too"
"would not"
"would too"
"I'm calling mod!"


Hokey because God is not one who can be controlled. God isn't some big imaginary friend who grants your every wish. He's the one in control, not the mortals.

And if the study proved it, it would obviously be a coincidence, because prayer isn't a prescription. I mean, I'm not Charismatic or anything.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think that whether it was "long-distance prayer" or not is irrelevant. What does matter is that the person praying has to have genuine faith in God and in their prayer, rather than just be trying to perform a study. That is the big error of the study, I think. Also, it would have been useful if they had another control group - one where they were told that they would get prayers, but they didn't. In addition, I think that God often does not interfere to heal the sick all that often. In my beliefs, the sort of prayer that He answers the most is the kind with intangible benefits; ie the person feels better emotionally or gains a spiritual understanding of something. And that in turn is somewhat dependant on how much faith they had, which is impossible to measure.

 

[Urederra]

WOW... MobBoss, you have performed a miracle. Congratulations

I think Vatican needs at least two to file a santity status, so keep praying.

[size=-1] And pray a little for me please, [/size]

 

[puglover]

WOW... MobBoss, you have performed a miracle. Congratulations

I think Vatican needs at least two to file a santity status, so keep praying.

[size=-1] And pray a little for me please, [/size]

WOW, I didn't know we had a comedian in the thread.

 

[MobBoss]

CarlosMM: Here is one story that is true.

Several months ago, I was traveling late at night. I came across a very bad accident about 12:30 AM on I5 here in Washington State. I was mere seconds behind the accident. A car had stalled out in the fast lane of the highway and another car impacted it at speed. Several people were hurt - one of them unconscious.

One of the people involved in the accident was trying to get road flares lit, but his adrenaline was so high he was simply unable to control himself enough to light the flares. So I took them from him and lit and place flares to warn oncoming traffic. After that I started checking on people. By this time, there were about 10 people or so on the scene rendering aid. The woman who was driving the car that impacted the stalled vehicle was in bad shape. There was a crowd of people standing around her, trying to render aid and comfort her, but I noticed no one was praying. While I was standing there she starting going into convulsions and people started getting frantic. People thought she was about to die I suppose....so I knelt beside her and put my hand upon her and started praying for her. Her convulsions stopped a matter of seconds later and after about a minute her eyes popped open. She was conscious, but still hurt bad and unable to speak. Thinking that she was going to be ok, I stopped praying for her and rose to go and check on the other injured people. Within seconds of stopping prayer for her, she started having convulsions again. I immediately turned back around and prayed for her again...and once again her convulsions stopped. I continued praying for her till the ambulance showed up. By the time the ambulance showed, she was once again awake and starting to be able to speak.

This is a true story and is all the proof I will ever need in my life that prayer does help people. You can dismiss it or discount it all you want, but because of my experience here, I will remain convinced that prayer can be effective and that there is nothing "nutcase" about it.

Thats my proof that I offer.

 

[MobBoss]

WOW... MobBoss, you have performed a miracle. Congratulations

I think Vatican needs at least two to file a santity status, so keep praying.

[size=-1] And pray a little for me please, [/size]

Actually, I have had part in several. I consider my daughters miracles.

And I will say a little prayer for you right now. Who am I to refuse such a request? But as the study shows, your milage may vary.

 

[kingjoshi]

I think that whether it was "long-distance prayer" or not is irrelevant. What does matter is that the person praying has to have genuine faith in God and in their prayer, rather than just be trying to perform a study. That is the big error of the study, I think.

All those who prayed believed in their faith and believed in the power of prayer.

In addition, I think that God often does not interfere to heal the sick all that often.

Matthew 4:7

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[a]"

source

 

[bgast1]

Here's the problem with the whole study or any other study such as this. I said it once and I'll say it again. You cannot measure spiritual issues scientifically. God is so wonderful, so magnificient, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His love is immeasureable, those who would attempt to limit God to a scientific study such as this do Him a disservice.

I love science. But science has it's place and religion has it's place as well. I do not chose to call true Chrisitanity a religion. To me it is a personal relationship that goes on 24/7 between me and God.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

All those who prayed believed in their faith and believed in the power of prayer.

I am not disputing that. What I am disputing is that they had true faith in that particular prayer for the sick person, that they made as part of the test. It is hard to come up with that sort of feeling if you didn't already have it; that is why in my opinion prayer is much more effective when it is done by someone who already has an interest in the sick (or whatever their problem is) person. Also, in my opinion the greatest benefit of such a prayer is that it helps one to understand that the outcome, positive or negative, is God's will.

And to all those who insists that God must be evil if He does something that we can't understand, that seems to be evil because it produces consequences that we only perceive as negative; remember, God knows a heck of a lot more than us. We see only the negative consequences of something (such as pain and death), God knows all the positive consequences (such as the fact that death merely leads to eternal life).

 

[Sahkuhnder]

...You cannot measure spiritual issues scientifically...

Of course you can.

Example: Many people take turns standing in the middle of a field and take the lords name in vain, yell obscenities at and about the lord, and commit blasphemy and heresy of the worst possible types.

Result: No person is smited.

They just performed a scientific experiment and measured a spiritual issue concerning the level of gods intervention.

End note: The results are irrelevant, the point is that a test was conducted and data was gathered.

 

[MobBoss]

Of course you can.

Example: Many people take turns standing in the middle of a field and take the lords name in vain, yell obscenities at and about the lord, and commit blasphemy and heresy of the worst possible types.

Result: No person is smited.

They just performed a scientific experiment and measured a spiritual issue concerning the level of gods intervention.

End note: The results are irrelevant, the point is that a test was conducted and data was gathered.

In this example, how do you know God didnt judge them until after they were dead? God is immortal, what need does he have to judge them at that point? He may be giving them the chance to ask for forgiveness for their sins down the road, prior to judging them.

 

[El_Machinae]

Mobboss: we're testing to see if blasphemy is immediately smitten. That's a way of testing what kind of God exists.

Of course, we predict that in each case, the evidence will show that God does not intervene when it is possible to measure the intervention. This is of course predictable, because the Flying Spaghetti Monster gives the same level of intervention.

 

[Fifty]

carlosmm, I'm just going to say that I'm praying for you that someday you'll realize how worthless science is. It's all about FEELING and anecdotal personal examples.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

In this example, how do you know God didnt judge them until after they were dead? God is immortal, what need does he have to judge them at that point? He may be giving them the chance to ask for forgiveness for their sins down the road, prior to judging them.

This is irrelevant to my point. The purpose of the study was to see if god immediately reacted to such actions. No lightning bolts from the sky, turning to salt, etc., thus data was gathered and a spiritual issue measured, which is in conflict with bgast's statement.

What we are testing is not important. My point is that tests can be done and data can be collected scientifically with regards to spiritual issues.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

This is irrelevant to my point. The purpose of the study was to see if god immediately reacted to such actions. No lightning bolts from the sky, turning to salt, etc., thus data was gathered and a spiritual issue measured, which is in conflict with bgast's statement.

What we are testing is not important. My point is that tests can be done and data can be collected scientifically with regards to spiritual issues.

And indeed, it would be proven that blasphemy is not immediately punished. So science can prove that. What is left unproved is whether there are long-term consequences. Will God remember this and use it against us at judgment? Will the fact that we did this separate us a little bit from God making it harder for us to accept and follow Him? Who knows.

 

[El_Machinae]

And indeed, it would be proven that blasphemy is not always immediately punished.

Corrected! (Don't want to make too large of claims on science!)