Study finds that prayer does not heal the sick

[carlosMM]

Personally, I have never made any such claim as to have healed anyone via long distance prayer. Perhaps prior to polling said christians they should have used biblical text and practice to study it instead of "what some christians think".

If one is going to refer to the bible as the general manner on how to pray and live ones life, shouldnt it be refered to in order to how to pray effectively?

Makes sense to me.

sigh.



I never said you made that claim. But you defenden in your initial posts a ridiculously stupid position (i.e. prayer heals) despite proof to the contrary, without saying that you disagree with the prayer method employed.

makes no sense to me.

Lets get one thing straight. YOU were the one who came in with the "nutcase" laguange.

And you feel insulted despite the fact that you agree with me that the way of prayer they tested can#t work?

@Rik: I am most certainly not trying to be flaming in this thread - but when I get stuff like this thrown at me, the temptation to be is rather hard.

It gives you an erection when I call a nut a nut?
[edit] since MobBoss now pretends to be too dense to get that this is a joke:

THIS IS A JOKE!

Thank you, nothing to see, go home and pray[/edit]
and, why do you take this personally - I never called you a nut as I only addressed the way of prayer the sutdy used, while your differs.
Seems you WANT to feel insulted - your tough luck.

 

[carlosMM]

I think considering the conditions of the test as conducted actually tended to heighten the patients anxiety level as opposed to providing any real comfort or help. As for people in church praying for sick people - people die irregardless of prayer all the time. Every once in a great while something miraculous may occur, but generally people still die, even if a whole congregation prays for them. You see, while all prayers may be heard, certainly not all prayers are answered. Any christian will tell you this. Thats biblical and is explained in the bible. Man's wishes are not necessarily part of Gods plan. How does one measure this? Once again, I am hardly convinced that physical science can be used to examine and measure spiritual issues.



The proof is not mine to bear. Any of my personal experience brought forth would be simply discounted by an atheist like you regardless. If one is going attempt to measure the healing power of prayer, it only makes sense to me that at the very least such a test be conducted as close as possible to how it was done in the bible. To me that is logical. This was not done in this test however.



As I said before, the proof is not mine to provide. Seek it out for yourself. Personally, I believe in prayer and have seen its result. That is enough for me. If a single study like this under these conditions is all the proof you need then your question is answered.

Let me throw out this then: If the test had shown an increase in the healing time of those being prayed for would you have simply accepted the results or would you just discount them?

I think I know the answer to that.

avoiding the question

my previous question now goes to you, too: does god let people suffer just to make scientific tests fail?

 

[carlosMM]

CarlosMM: Here is one story that is true.
[snip] I knelt beside her and put my hand upon her and started praying for her. Her convulsions stopped a matter of seconds later and after about a minute her eyes popped open. She was conscious, but still hurt bad and unable to speak. Thinking that she was going to be ok, I stopped praying for her and rose to go and check on the other injured people. Within seconds of stopping prayer for her, she started having convulsions again. I immediately turned back around and prayed for her again...and once again her convulsions stopped. I continued praying for her till the ambulance showed up. By the time the ambulance showed, she was once again awake and starting to be able to speak.
[snip]Thats my proof that I offer.

Sorry, MobBoss - as brave as you acted, and as laudable as your actions were - this is no proof of any kind, and you know it.

All you show is a strong indication that for one patient, physical contact and (no idea of she was able to perceive that) full attention of another human helped stop convulsions.

You lecture me on what proper science is, claim that a study with many patients has no power of explanation - then go and bring one single uncontrolled instance in which you cannot begin to show whether either the attention, the physical contact or the prayer was involved in the beneficial effect, and much less to what part as 'proof'?

Really, this is beyond weak!


I have been in two situations where badly wounded or shocked people required help. In both cases, caring for them helped calm them, reducing the bleeding (lower pulse and blood pressure will do that) and pain spasms. In neither case did I pray. Do these two instances rule out that prayer may help?

Obviously, not. Too few, uncontrolled, no test group.

 

[carlosMM]

MobBoss, can I have an answer?

 

[MobBoss]

It gives you an erection when I call a nut a nut?

and, why do you take this personally - I never called you a nut as I only addressed the way of prayer the sutdy used, while your differs.
Seems you WANT to feel insulted - your tough luck.

I find it quite ironic that the man that reports me for "ad hominum" attacks in another thread has such a blatent disregard for forum rules.

Reported.

 

[carlosMM]

I find it quite ironic that the man that reports me for "ad hominum" attacks in another thread has such a blatent disregard for forum rules.

Reported.

I find it quite interesting that you are totally unable to recognize a joke, Mr. Religious.

and you still refuse to answer, I see.

 

[warpus]

The only sort of effect prayer can have on a patient is psychological

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I still disagree. I think that there can be spiritual benefits, and that it is not a ridiculously stupid position to think that prayer heals. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that to me suggest that there is a correlation. I could never use these experiences to try to prove it to anyone else, but for me at least it shows that there is value in prayer.

 

[Mr. Do]

Spiritual benefits? What on earth does that mean (Literally, how would spiritual help benefit someone on our plane of existence)?

I still think it would be a horrible god who gives additional aid to people who have others praying for them.

 

[EolTheDarkElf]

I don't believe in God but.... I find this study completely bogus. Maybe it's been said before, but why would God heed the prayers of people who consciously chose to pray only for a sub-group of their "brothers" as part of an experiment? It's just so unfair and dishonest, shouldn't any decent Christian pray for ALL the sick, not just those on the namelist they were given?

I don't believe prayer helps anyone, but a scientific experiment must take into account that both hypotheses evaluated may be true, so it must allow for the possibility that there is a God. And if there was, then the way that the experiment is set up would be just wrong, I think those "prayers" should be invalid or be taken in favour of all the sick...

This experiment is just scientifically flawed IMHO.

 

[El_Machinae]

It's flawed because it is testing for an interventionist God, but then doesn't factor out the other methods of intervening.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Spiritual benefits? What on earth does that mean (Literally, how would spiritual help benefit someone on our plane of existence)?

I still think it would be a horrible god who gives additional aid to people who have others praying for them.

Spiritual benefits means becoming closer to God, better understanding His way of thinking, things that produce results that we can't always notice on earth but that give us joy later.

And I don't think it is horrible for God to answer some prayers. He uses prayer as one factor in considering what happens to someone. And He has a long-term perspective. We only know of this mortal life, so what happens to us here seems to be of utmost importance. But God, knowing that an eternity follows, is willing to subject us to suffering now knowing that it produces much greater benefits throughout eternity.

 

[Mr. Do]

Oh, those kind of spiritual benefits I think are doubtless, even if you don't believe in any god...

 

[MobBoss]

I find it quite interesting that you are totally unable to recognize a joke, Mr. Religious.

and you still refuse to answer, I see.

[edit] since MobBoss now pretends to be too dense to get that this is a joke:

THIS IS A JOKE!

Thank you, nothing to see, go home and pray[/edit]

Joke or not, sexually explicit language is against the TOS. I shouldnt have to point that out to a scientist I would think. Your lame attempt to make it a joke is well....lame. Also, your tone to me is very harassing (i.e. calling me Mr. Religious) which is also against the TOS.

 

[carlosMM]

Joke or not, sexually explicit language is against the TOS. I shouldnt have to point that out to a scientist I would think. Your lame attempt to make it a joke is well....lame. Also, your tone to me is very harassing (i.e. calling me Mr. Religious) which is also against the TOS.

so, instead of debating the topic, you now try to find ways to piss on my shoes - shows what a high opinion you have of your position, and very much about yourn character.

You earned the Mr. religious, and that is far from harassing. if you dislike it, I will stop it - should I call you bub instead?


and still no answere to the content of my posts...... weak, MobBoss, really weak. Just when we tried to get the discussion back on track......

come on, please answer - I am very interested in your opinion on this!

 

[Azash]

Actually I am a bit surprised it doesn't work. I expected to see some kind of placebo-effect or a Positivism-helps effect.

I thought the patients did not know they were prayed for?

 

[warpus]

A more interesting study would be to create multiple prayer groups, each one praying to a different deity (ie. Yahweh, Zeus, Allah, Ra, ...) to see which (if any) had any impact on the patient.

If any of the deities actually exists you'd expect to see interesting results.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

A more interesting study would be to create multiple prayer groups, each one praying to a different deity (ie. Yahweh, Zeus, Allah, Ra, ...) to see which (if any) had any impact on the patient.

If any of the deities actually exists you'd expect to see interesting results.

Unless you're one of those people (such as me) who believe that the One True God answers sincere prayers made to nonexistant gods.

 

[El_Machinae]

That would result in everyone (who is prayed for) receiving a benefit from the prayer. That would have been cool

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

ofcourse prayer doesn't work. Why would a few words change your health although there is the placebo effect.