[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Mr_Trotsky]

Welcome back @Pangaea !

I don’t have much to add on current situation, looking good so far

Spoiler One small micro question :

Is it worth building a road 1N (or 1NW) of capital in between improving the corns? Only loses one turn of improved corn and would allow for faster movement later / a connected city north.

Spoiler :

I was pondering that and I’d be sorely tempted to do it. Pretty sure it’s not the right play though and an extra turn of working the improved corn is better. Particularly given new cities look likely to go east and then perhaps south so it would be a while before that road was used.

 

[Fippy]

Agree with your warrior move, keeping him around the most likely first city spot never feels wrong.

The discussed road would be okay if it's helping settler movement, but wrong direction so nope imo.

 

[Pangaea]

Oh, and welcome back @Pangaea, we have missed you!

Welcome back @Pangaea !

Thank you, it's nice to be back

Have only played a little stint, to turn 25 when capital borders expanded again.

Spoiler :

The worker went north first to improve the wet corn. Means it's online a turn later than the dry corn, but it gives +1 and +1. It is completed in turn 20. Isabella also showed up. Quite a strong group of AIs so far!

Spoiler :

Sorry about the temporary dotmaps, I like to put stuff down early and change them as I get more knowledge, or if the AI 'ruin' the spots.

The worker then moves directly south, no roading, to improve the second corn. I figured that is better than starting to chop half way through. Timing wise, I can probably double-whip the settler anyway.

I know @Fippy said it makes sense to put the warrior near the first city spot, but it does feel a little awkward to not scout more. Maybe old habits die hard. The eastern area remained safe, but a barb archer appeared down south. Seems to have wandered out of bounds again now, after killing some unit (went from full health to 2.1 strength with a promotion).

Changed some tiles to get the warrior out a little faster, and in turn 25 the capital borders expand again. This is so nice, and was what I hoped for. All the coast is revealed because the culture goes to the coast, which means you get as good a view as a unit would. No warrior scouting necessary. And holy fish lord, that is a lot of fish!!

Spoiler :

No majour changes, but the dotmap was altered a little. Moved the pig city 1S, which would mean it now misses the fish closer to Stalin, but will grab more land tiles. Going 1E of the pig to try to grab Stalin's corn feels a bit too aggressive -- and probably futile too given the AI's easy culture output here (they can spam building fast as you like). However, a city there would be pretty killer with triple food.

After BW I picked AH. It felt sensible given there are three AH resources nearby, which we can hopefully all grab. Now fishing is essential too, but maybe next, for city 3? Those northern spots are also super safe, so can be backfilled later. It's more important to try to find a good spot to the south to claim land. Therefore the next warrior need to scout south, and hopefully find something decent, without being overrun by barbs.

Have only met the three AIs so far, but I know there is at least one more, because Isabella has been running less than 4 EP/turn (it's actually 0 right now, but was 2-3 earlier). Isabella and Saladin are unlikely to be friends... at least until they both run Theocracy. I'll have to pick a side here, and that will probably depend on what spreads to me. Being Spiritual can be very beneficial here, as I can agree to their demands without too much cost.

Btw, isn't turn 22-24 city 3 very early for the AIs? Or maybe Deity just is this freakin' nuts. Looking at the demo screen is a sad tale. No wonder they are running away with things with an extra settler (+++) from the start, and super bonuses all over the shop.

I've attached the save. I know it's still early, but thoughts about the game so far?

 

[Pangaea]

You're size 3, now. Are you building a settler or a second worker ?

Had actually thought about a size 4 settler to be whipped, but maybe you are right and it would be better to start him right after the warrior is out, or another worker. I very rarely build another worker before the settler, tho, because it's so important to claim land. However, perhaps that is something to think about here due to all the forests that can be chopped.

 

[Anysense]

I'd settle NW of the pigs, otherwise Stalin may kill the fish. Perhaps, third city 2N of wet corn? This way all 3 cities will be connected without roads, gives your worker time to chop workboats. Unless cows/FP site is threatened, apparently Saladin is not too far South.

 

[Fippy]

I think the best move would be starting a settler until corn has been improved, so Thebes can grow in 3 turns.
2 pop whip later.
I wouldn't be bothered by your warrior being delayed by a couple turns. No urgent need for him.

 

[Pangaea]

Intended to play a while, but well... T32

Spoiler :

Thought @Fippy's idea with slowbuilding settler until corn was done was a good idea, so did that. Not the best timing with hammers, but 62/100 (after a chop) means I can still 2-pop him, and I figured the overflow should go into a worker.

You arse!

Spoiler :

Never a pleasant sight

The settler is ready to be 2-popped, but where do I park him now? Stalin put the city in the worst spot really. Great for him obviously, but had he done it further east I could have snagged his pigs. There is an aggressive option on the hill NW of the dotmap, but he's certainly not going to like that. Not a bad spot, though. Feel like I know too little about the south yet to wander down there, unless it's for the desert hill NE of cow.

This is one of the many annoyances on Deity. The AI can put cities right in your face, and there is precisely nothing you can do about it. T32 is too early here. And I hoped he had better places closer to home. This means he has put two cities in my direction, and the capital is further east somewhere.

AH feels like a little bit of a waste now, but thankfully there is another pig further SW, and it does tell us about horses, which could be an option against Stalin if we get too hard pressed here.

 

[Pangaea]

Played a little further, to ~2000BC.

Spoiler :

Things got tense with barbs and I had to juggle tiles around and get out a decent chunk of warriors. A barb beastly archer kept slaying AI units and invaded as a Combat 3 (but at 2.2 health). At one point his health was 0.0, yet he lived! Thankfully he died on the forested hill north-west of the second city, which I founded south on the desert hill. It seemed a little pointless to go north when the pig was already lost. Another barb archer invaded, but he died at 40% attack odds on a forested warrior. I had backup so it should have been fine, but you never know with these things. Early RNG is always crucial.

But first, AH.

Spoiler :

Third city spot as clear as you can get them.

After that I picked Fishing and turned off research to save gold. I'm surprised we haven't run into more AIs here, because I know there are more (EP spending), so they must be blocked off somewhere, or alternatively there is AI-AI contact via coast.

From the earlier update, I did double-whip the settler that then ended up going south, before putting overflow into a second worker. Both workers doubled up to improve the nearest cow, which was nice as it became important to get out a capital warrior against barb invaders. Got much less help from AI archers than usual, especially for such a crowded area. Otherwise the workers were mostly chopping. Amusing music popup just as a barb invades

Spoiler :

Third city was settled around T48, and here in T51 the crabs are caught and I stop the turnset. Overview shot.

Spoiler :

Isabella has spammed cities and have 6 and Stalin have finally decided to settle elsewhere than in my face. Saladin is now directly south. Unfortunately he has all EPs on me, so maybe I should have changed. Not gonna get tech view on him anytime soon if that keeps up.

Looks like Isabella may have a city on the PH north of rice, so I may be able to get the pigs over there. That marble would have been nice. There is also jungled rice and clams further south, which may be possible to get. The "pre" worker can put the chop into a settler, which was just lined up, but not sure if I should finish him so soon. The fourth city on Deity is usually very expensive, can break the economy, and for now there are zero cottages. But Pottery is in next turn, so that will help a lot. Need to get to that southern cow soon too. It's been dangerous thus far, and my two guys have been chopping like crazy.

Where to go next? And when?

 

[Nick723]

Spoiler Some thoughts :

Just a little question - why not 1NE with crab city?

Now I would be tempted to just build another worker in the capital and then go for war chariots on Stalin. But I don’t have a good feel for these early rushes so it may well be the time has passed for that.

 

[Fippy]

WC attacks can be played like HAs too (not just as super-early rushes)
1 strength less means some more units are needed, but they also cost a lot less
They destroy Axes easily, and AIs are usually not smart enuf to build only Spears suddenly.

Memphis offers some good tiles later, not the worst spot to grab before Sally..so i'm not too negative on this city.
Pigs city before Izzy would close the landgrab phase.

I think WCs on Stalin would still work, so far he announces only Archers.
Would ofc require some mad chopping soon, rather than building improvements.
But even a city like Memphis could quickly contribute 1 or 2 by whipping.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the shadow and comments, much appreciated

Spoiler :

Sucked to lose that pigfish city, but given that it happened, it did feel kind of like a waste to settle over there instead of grabbing land. The land there was already lost. Naturally I would greatly prefer that, like happened in your game, rather than needing to change plans already in ~T30. However, I don't think the deserthill is quite as bad as you make out above. Sure, I'd like to have it connected (only +1 commerce now tho) and the cow improved, but it did mostly take the improved cow from the capital. It's only lately I changed to working the lakes for extra commerce so I could get Pottery one turn quicker. Like Fippy mentioned, it also claimed land from Saladin, who may otherwise have taken that spot (ish). But yeah, it looks ugly since workers couldn't go down there due to barbs, or had to chop stuff near the capital.

Could well be that a worker or two soon would be better than what I did, but I'm sooooo used to HAVING to grab land and therefore get out a settler pretty darn early, then deal with workers later. Is this generally the wrong approach? Btw, did you have any barb issues? That impacts a lot.

Since I don't know much about the land yet, nor AIs, I'm not totally opposed to replaying. Though that mostly just feels like a gambit to snag the eastern pig spot, hoping Stalin settles more like he did in your save. I don't necessarily think I made big errors based on what occurred in my game, but maybe I'm wrong?

War Chariots is certainly an interesting approach here, and it's not super late yet. It may be possible to catch Stalin without too much of a defence (spears!). Saladin only brags about chariots too, so that's an option, but ofc there I'd face protective archers, which is no joke.

Maybe this is just me, but I kind dislike building up for a rush with units like WC or other 30-h units. They can't be two-popped with nice overflow, and 1-popping always feels wrong, well most of the time. Has to be done a few times here, but you basically just regrow instantly and can quickly find yourself with angry citizens and 8 turns until it wears off or something. Chopping works better in that regard, but it is 4 turns per chop, so it's not super fast.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments, @BornInCantaloup. Is that how you generally approach your games, with workers before settlers? You don't find you lose important land that way?

Started to replay...

Spoiler :

Went with worker first, but at size 3. Figured they could then both chop out a settler, or I can double-pop it.

He's coming over a turn sooner now. Just isn't meant to be, huh?

Suppose I may as well continue with the game I had, and see what it can turn into.

 

[Pangaea]

Continued with that second go to T60-ish. Stalin keeps ruining my plans.

Spoiler :

Decided to try a War Chariot rush, from 3 cities. Founded #3 on the hill near Stalin's pig. But why did the bugger have to park 5-6 archers in there? I moved my guys away for a little while to see if they scared him, but no, still a horde of archers in there. Frustrating.

 

[Pangaea]

You're fogbusting, there are no barbs, Stalin recognizes the spot as safe. Something like that.

I thought about that too. It may be what is happening. But on the other hand, it makes sense to fogbust your second city spot. If an archer pops up there, I can't settle it anyway. Good example of how incredibly important early RNG is for good progress. It's not only about not getting shafted in combat, but also in these other RNG AI (and barb) decisions.

 

[Pangaea]

Hmm, well I had to try of course....

Spoiler :

Forgot to screenshot it, but I took a chance and assaulted 5-archer defended Novgorod. Quite lucky there, in that I only lost 3 WCs and took the city. Stalin then instantly built a wall around St. Petersburg when a WC took a look at what was inside. Bit of forking, a bit of farming, a bit of healing, and although it was frustrating when only a barely alive chariot was left in a city, we took two more. Thus we have 6 cities now, and will go bankrupt when they come out of revolt. Hah. Oh...! Writing is in next turn, tho.

I really want to keep going here, pretty sure I can wipe him out unless he suddenly gets metal somewhere. But can I afford it? Maybe a cheesy ceasefire would be in order anyway. Need to heal. Saladin will then dislike me even more, because those guys are super-close friends (I always find this silly so early in the game).

Three wonders in the same city, so something tells me there is an IND civ somewhere, probably with stone.

Spoiler :

The south is naturally lost to Saladin and Isabella, and as suspected Saladin took the floodplains area early on when I didn't take it.

Map overview

Spoiler :

Can definitely keep going here, albeit after a small break for healing (just got a GG too, tho sadly in the farthest away city). 10 WCs currently, and they have killed 12 archers and 2 chariots. I left his source of horses intact, because I'd rather face chariots than city defending archers.

Spoiler :

I better wait for some feedback now. This wasn't intended for a writeup, but a learning game. Easy to get too excited and play ahead, and make mistakes without being aware of it. Hopefully I've not made too many of those here. The attached save is from the second go, so not the original one. In this one I went with a second worker before the first settler, and ofc had some map knowledge, though early moves were the same (park warrior in the east) to try to keep it fair.

 

[Anysense]

Spoiler :

I'd like a ceasefire but diplomacy is a bit tricky, as you do not know who is relevant, Izzy or Saladin. You should make a boat for scouting ASAP and meet other civs, particularly with tech trading starting soon, you don't want to be late there. Time for early wars is pretty much over, anyway. Perhaps, just take Moscow and Yakutsk and be done with it? Can't afford more cities without Currency or some happy resources. You haven't got a single resources yourself, that's really awkward when going for early rush, nothing to offset whipping anger and grow to work more .

With Writing next turn you might consider building roads to Spain and Arabia, unless you expect to get Sailing soon. Something you ought to have thought of beforehand. I'm not sure what to build, may be, settlers. You need two for back-filling and by the time they are out you may already be able to afford a couple more cities.

But of course, Hatty is Creative! Build some libraries. Just build with one chop - you do not need more whipping anger. I think Memphis is a good candidate for first GS: it can't support more than 2 or 3 scientists, so lets make it produce the first one while more food-rich cities accumulate some for 2nd and 3rd.

 

[Fippy]

Happy situation looks bad now, but with open borders Sally & Izzy will likely spread their Relis to you.
While you can pick only one of them later, SPI temples can be built freely. If you delay converting they might even spread both into some cities.
So i think PH should be the next tech target. On route to Mona doesn't hurt as well.

Ceasefire and declaring again gives another -1 with Sally. Tricky and not sure if i'd take that hit.
If you spread around some xp with your GG, they should capture Moscow soon enuf without ceasefire. Better than all xp on a medic.

 

[Pangaea]

Thank you all, fantastic advice! Much I hadn't thought about, which isn't the best sign I suppose, but that is also why threads like this is excellent.

Spoiler :

Techs: In this situation, after Writing, I'd usually pick Aesthetics and try to get Alpha with it. But Fippy makes a good point about happiness through temples. It's a long way to Priesthood tho, when I don't even have Mysticism. Would others too agree that my best option tech-wise is to go that route here? Hopefully there is at least one happy near Moscow, but usually my picks here would be Aesthetics or Math. Mostly the former on Deity.

Trade routes from roads: very good idea and I'll try to do that. Workers have been super busy so far with chops, and I only have 4 (1 captured), but with most forests gone already they are free to do other things. I was thinking some more cottages, but yeah, I should make some roads too. Without sailing I'll otherwise not get good trade routes.

Libraries: Slipped my mind we are creative, and after playing I kicked myself for 'spending' a capital whip on a barracks earlier. But of course I wouldn't have had to 3-pop a library there anyway. But I need to get up some libraries here, especially as they are cheap. The capital is pretty good so maybe an Academy would be fitting? Otherwise there can be some nice bulbs, maybe on Philo for once, or on the usual path to Lib.

Settlers/economy: Want to settle those nice fish spots, but don't really feel like I can afford it right now. Maintenance will skyrocket once more cities come out of revolt, and especially if I can grab Moscow too (crossing my fingers it's on flatland). Gut feeling says it's more important to get the economy sorted with more cottages, plus the libraries. Better trade routes will help a little too.

Ceasefire: I agree with you, it's better to keep going. Another hit with Saladin could be bad longterm, for not that much benefit war-wise. Excellent suggestion to hold off on the supermedic for now, and promotion heal instead. I'll take a look at options there. I was slightly worried about chariots sniping my injured guys, and that can happen ofc, but I should still have enough units I should think. 3 new WCs are in the works.

Speaking about the quality of the land and improvements, it should be said that I have busted a fair few cottages for gold, so it didn't look quite as blank as this previously. It's really quite strange with this much land and not a single happy resource in sight (except whales). Plenty of food, but with little way to use it. Capital have had to get off the dry corn for cottages for example. Sadly no other city can borrow them.

 

[Pangaea]

Need to head out for some errands, but here is an update from T75. Please check the save for more details. Micro is half-done.

Spoiler :

Tried to incorporate the advice above. Roaded to Saladin (only two tiles) and am still roading to Isabella (done next turn). Chopped and building libraries and Memphis is running 2 scientists. Continued war on Stalin, and have taken Moscow. There were only two archers, and he was building a wonder (~200 hammers invested), pretty sure it must have been Mids, but what are you gonna do. He founded a city further east with access to iron. Bad combat luck, but the city got razed. Just now I also captured the fish city, which turned out to be in the jungle. Hard choice, but I decided to raze it. It cost 5.5 gold, and next turn Moscow comes out of revolt, which costs about 7gold. Can't afford all this. However, Priesthood was just done this turn, and also got tech view on Isabella (finally!), and she' doing Alpha. Nice! CoL next then? Will take a long while as I'm losing gold at 0%, but the road to Isabella and some more cottages should help. Memphis should probably go back to working the non-lh coast. Stalin has one city left, hopefully with several workers. Plan is to whip more workers as I only have 6. Moscow will do one as it's size 4.

Overview map

Spoiler :

Saladin has founded a pack of cities recently, and will have yet more room now with the razed fish-rice city (but rice will probably get jungled soon). Delayed taking that city hoping Stalin would net the fish, but it never happened. Also met Wang, and he had Gold for trade. Sadly wouldn't trade it for fish, so I gave him horses. We have gotten another source now anyway, and I had 10-11 WCs at the time, which felt like enough.

Economy is in the gutter, as always after these early rushes, but land is secured, so that is nice. Kinda strange land, it looks like a huge T so far. Mansa is supposed to be somewhere based on T0 demographics, and there was also a foreign GG born this turn, so somebody are upset with each other. Pretty early, so maybe there is a super aggro leader like Shaka or Monty that didn't much care for Mansa?

Edit: Both Saladin and Isabella have sent missionaries (Saladin first), but I haven't flipped to anything yet. Hoping they will send more, and possibly demand a change. Usually a nag, but not with SPI

 

[Snowbird]

Recovery:

Deleting some units (and I would not be making workers until it is clear how much you capture) and switching from mines to coast should put at smthing like +5.

Add in capturing barb city and that should be enough for HBR+ like turn into Alpha, which you could try ASAP as Issy finishes it. Well, your neighbours are not beelining HBR type thankfully.

There are definitely more AI according to espionage screen - both Issy and Saladin are allocating less than 4 espionage points. So maybe keep warrior in Issy territory, but I would check hard in the W/NW side. If smthing behind Issy is in dif religion, no way you can find it other way. According to this plan, I would probably try to extort Stalin for tech although you could just trade whatever he has (like IW, sailing) for Alpha anyway - so maybe gold from capture is better.

So in general, things look good. Mostly because Issy is teching Alpha. I would definitely cut warrior in Saladin's land - he is costing 2 gold per turn and I would guess it is as much likely someone is behind the barbarian city.