Is Monarchy not the main thing to acquire here? Happiness seems really crippling. With HR allowing much bigger pop size you can afford so much more.
I mean, if you had to choose, Alpha or Math could wait a bit, Monarchy can not I would think, especially when you go reli neutral so the Philo bulb for Paci has no effect and you get no reli happiness.
Is Monarchy not the main thing to acquire here? Happiness seems really crippling. With HR allowing much bigger pop size you can afford so much more.
I mean, if you had to choose, Alpha or Math could wait a bit, Monarchy can not I would think, especially when you go reli neutral so the Philo bulb for Paci has no effect and you get no reli happiness.
For the time being, happiness isn't an issue, so in that sense HR isn't super urgent. Some of the deals for happy resources will probably be cancelled, but they are set in stone for a while yet due to the 10-turn "security". I still want it soon-ish ofc, but I'm thankful for Wang's trades here
Regarding maintenance, Pangaea has a whole lot of potential for growth. Food and happy surplus, if you will. If he can get that pop running, then he'll be in good shape.
Thanks for posting the overview. I've probably taken this a bit far on my end, but wanted more information in that screen, so I have everything in one place without needing to change screens so often.
Spoiler:
It's possible to create your entire new screens here, and I started to do that back in the days, but then landed on amended the main screen instead. One change to BUG that would have been great, is hover-text for all these small icons, because there are absolute heaps of them in the various screens, and sometimes I forget what is what. A workaround is to hit the edit screen and then exit it again without making changes. Because then you see an easier description of what they are.
I think I attached the correct file for the view I have here. I'm on Linux so the folder structure is a little different (underneath .local). On Windows it probably goes into the Documents folder, or wherever the saves are located. .../civ4complete/Beyond the Sword/BUG Mod/UserSettings/CustomDomAdv
For those using BUFFY, you need to copy it to that folder as well. Change the slashes around, because Windows ofc had to do things differently than everybody else again
Edit: Actually, when comparing with your screenshot above, it's not that different. Just the latest columns, plus for MPs. Thought I had made more changes.
Huh, strange. Thought CoL <> Alpha would be fine, but suppose I need to put some beakers into it after all
Spoiler:
No go with Mansa either.
IW+Sailing is fine, although it is the exact same beaker count as for Alpha. But more people have those, so they are probably seen as slightly cheaper.
Had to get some beakers into Alpha to trade for it, which I did with Isabella. Whipped settler for north fish in T86 before going Caste. Having recently change religion (to none), it would be pointless to go Pacifism in 2 turns anyway. And this allowed me to get out the GS a little faster, plus start running merchants in Heliopolis, which is an excellent city when it has all the food. It started with 3 merchants, and is now employing 5.
Awkward to not trade with Mansa, but with three people hating him, it seems wise to avoid it. I noticed Wang had two (!) size 12 cities, so no wonder he's blowing through the techs here. Also has all the happiness in the world. And a decent capital...
Kept looking at trade options, and decided to bite the bullet on Gilgamesh, and trade with him despite two people hating him. Gave him CoL+Alpha for Monarchy+IW. Then CoL+Alpha for Math+Sailing+Poly with Saladin. Later I gifted Monarchy to Saladin and Isabella, for a little positive diplo. It would come in handy when going Buddhism later, to avoid Saladin falling down to Annoyed. Also gifted Math to Isabella when she was two turns away. I didn't get Masonry, but it's not a big deal here as the idea was to go Paci anyway (usually it's OR). We have access to two irons, so that's great. T88 I bulb Philo, and Taoism was founded in the far eastern city of Mauryan.
The north fish cost a bomb, +8 GPT, but there was nice timing for the workboat
Spoiler:
Don't worry about the cottages, I fixed that later.
Still had the warrior moving west, and he finally was able to locate Mansa waaaaaay over there. Then I decided to delete him, plus a workboat. Shouldn't have built that one, but oh well. Those two units actually saved 5gpt. Paci can be expensive!
Really dislike when this happens.
Spoiler:
That blasted workboat will lure the barb galley all the way over to our non-ocean seafood. So I had little choice but to start working on some galleys. I'm doing two, just in case the first loses as usual. Maybe they will be useful down the line.
T91 and the religion change counter has expired. There are some missionaries in our lands, but I still hope they will do their missions despite we having picked a religion. I go HR+Pacifism+Buddhism.
T94, and Mansa asks for CoL for free. Usually a no-brainer, but I'm worried about diplo here, so actually reject him. Otherwise Gilgamesh would become Cautious, Isabella far away from becoming Pleased (currently +2), and Saladin would become Annoyed. A hit with Mansa is probably less bad.
Spoiler:
A little further down the line, and both Wang and Mansa hates me I lost the bonus from being a small civilization, so now not even Mansa is willing to trade techs.
The leftover War Chariots were sent on a mission to raze barb cities. They're in the jungle, and there seems to be a massive jungle belt here that is so far unclaimed. We get almost 50g, and I've sent them towards another. Think they should bypass the one on a hill, as it will just be pointless losses. Maybe they'll be able to deal with the other one. Another WC is checking out Wang's land. He built Artemis, and I wanted to see where it is. Pretty far away, and through the jungle, so not sure if it's a good idea to send the GM all the way to Korea? What a capital though, holy crap!
Spoiler:
Oh yeah, Gilgamesh started plotting too, in T89. I assume his intended target is Mansa, but you never do know.
This is the world map in T95, plus a size 10 Thebes. It hits 11 next turn. Can only keep crossing my fingers that Wang won't cancel our deals. Why hasn't he changed to Caste yet? Damnit!
Spoiler:
As you can see from some screens, I've queued up Civil Service. Economy is still in tatters, but the 5 merchants in Heliopolis helps a little. A few cities are building research. I'm actually working on two settlers too, but it may not be the most splendid idea ever to found more cities here... Still, I wanted to try to steal Saladin's FP cow, plus get a city for Crabs. Maybe it will land us another happy. Unless the days for Health <> Happy are over.
The save is attached. The GM is out in two turns, but where shall I send him? Anything else that looks wrong? Sorry about the late workboat in Mauryan, but I'm pretty sure there is another barb galley over there, so it seems like a wasted chop. Have I gone too wild on cottages?
Attachments
Pangaea Deity BC-0500-GM in 2 turns.CivBeyondSwordSave
Yeah, I really would have settled that one 2W, so as to cut on maintenance costs (if ever you want to work the crabs).
I don't know about the two extra settlers. I could consider grabbing some resources in the jungle belt, if you discover a nice spot but... more backfilling, I'd be very cautious.
I did ask about that once or twice, but didn't get a view from people. Ultimately it's my own mistake ofc, if it is a mistake, but I decided to put it there. Otherwise a grassland couldn't be worked, and well... err.. yeah
Won't a city in the jungle be very expensive? I could have kept the barb city ofc, it had double food, but it also cost a bit (don't recall how much now), and ofc there were no workers anywhere near. Certainly room for some nice cities here, but it requires a thousand workerturns
Probably can't do that directly (need some beakers into it), and I would take diplo hits. Currency would certainly be great. The GM will need to travel quite a long way if I am to get him to the Artemis city. But once he does, the gold problems will be solved for a while.
I can end the Philo monopoly ofc, but think I'd prefer to hold on to it for the time being, and not speed them up towards Lib.
Long term, and not sure how to best go about it, cannons maybe, but it would be great to be able to grab Saladin's land. His entire core is pretty close.
Looks good imo, TOA merchant travel is just one option - here taking 900g from Basra with only 1t travel looks much better
200g more (i think) are not worth a long delay.
Remember this actions goal: teching for ~15 turns at 100% and reaching new exciting stuff.
A cheaper value tech like Aest. can be very nice.
Compass would be the slightly bigger one (they rarely ever tech that early).
One vision would be paying a bit extra of your GM gold for currency, then selling Aest to others and maybe even making a profit
Ofc you could also look at Music afterwards cos you can tech at 100, making Aest. look better than Compass or HBR.
For this plan i'd start teching asap (for example 1t before GM gets born with your current gold amount).
High food cities (there seem to be plenty in your empire) should still get you enuf GS for a standard Edu + Lib thingie.
More so if you can get the music GA for another boost via golden age.
Regular Cuirs play seems very possible.
I wouldn't worry too much about cottages outside of Thebes, yup rivers should be improved but your worker force can manage that.
Using Moscow as example, it could instead get farms around that lake and help with points.
Those don't require hurry.
Hmm, interesting views. I was thinking of using that gold to get to Civil Service. Going up to Music makes sense too ofc, especially if I can get there first. Needed for epics, and the GA would be great for a GAge.
What about future GPs tho? Would you favour going for a 2nd GM to fund more research? GS for bulbs instead? And what about an Academy? The capital should be pretty good for Buro. But that also requires getting out of the economic hole, so we can run a high slider for most of the time.
If there is only a 200g difference, popping the GM close makes sense. I'd like to start researching again. These AIs sure aren't holding back, and Mansa+Wang will take off soon enough.
Perhaps I ought to hold off on more cottages throughout the empire then...? Hmm. It feels strange to build them all over like this, but the cities need something to work.
I am not entirely sure about the way forward yet, but it looks like both you favour going for Music, so that should be instructive for what I do I guess
On great people, I was wondering about getting a second GM, and sending that one all the way to Korea. Otherwise I'd need a GS for Edu bulb. Maybe it's possible to get both in time here, due to all the food? That's the one big boon we have with this map.
Think I should build some more farms, and I actually did on purpose not cottage next to the lake in Moscow because I pondered about farming those for GPP purposes. Think I should do that. It can still work the two riverside cottages, and maybe others that St. Petersburg doesn't reach or have room for.
I was still thinking about settling two cities nearby, for the crab and a nasty attempt to steal Saladin's cow. But maybe I better put a city up north where the whales are instead. It can be okay with double seafood. Bit far away, tho :-| Trying to steal Isabella's marble seems a little over-aggressive perhaps? I'm worried about one of these jokers starting to plot.
Edit: On the other hand, should I actually be thinking higher of these jungle infested cities?
Spoiler:
Still only size 1 so will be auto-razed, and probably won't grow for a good while with not even a 2-food tile to 'grow' on, but apart from the thousand workturns required, they're not bad cities. Has ivory too. Saladin has had a chariot roaming about for a while tho, so most likely he will have a settler party there soon. I just worry about how expensive these far-away cities will be. Deity is brutal maintenance-wise. Something down here could be 12-15 gpt
Played a few turns, but I don't really like to play with this feeling of not really having concrete plans. Easy to lose focus and just flitter about doing whatever. GM is ready, but will only get 900 in Basra. Will allow 10 turns of research, or in reality less due to having two settlers out too.
Spoiler:
Think I'll put the settler from Moscow up north where the barb galley is now. The workboat made a micro mistake, heh, and the galley caught it on the turn. It feels kinda wasted to settle for the crabs when there are no tiles it needs to work, all cottages are already worked by other cities. But then I pulled back the workboat for the crabs, so errr... yeah. Lost focus. It's actually more tempting to put it south of the capital. At least there are some decent tiles it can work, and maybe steal the cow if it gets up a library. Saladin's city has 40% culture, tho, so not easy. But a city there could borrow cows from the capital, plus gets the iron near Spain.
Just now Saladin demanded I stop trading with his worst enemy Mansa. Mansa already hates me, and I do get Wine from him, so that didn't sound like a great idea. Saladin didn't instantly start plotting, but he definitely could any moment. Diplo here is a total carcrash. Even Gilgamesh fell down to Cautious. Think the +2 fair trade we had degraded (from the Monarchy gift).
Wang is crazy. Several large cities, important wonders, and all the happiness resources in the world. Okay, he's partially in the jungle, but Deity AIs laugh at that.
Isabella has sent a few missionaries, but looks like they are going to Arabia instead of my cities that still need it. Thought about building a monastery in the east so Moscow can get Buddhism, but Rostov kept working on Research for now (no, think I started on a warrior for MP in St. Petersburg). Decent hammers over there with Horses + Iron.
Haven't popped the GM yet, but think I have to. Otherwise it's 15 turns more of no research while it travels to the other side of the planet, through thick jungle.
Spoiler:
What do the experts say? Feel like I'm falling behind already, despite the Philo monopoly, because techs are coming in thick and fast for the AIs.
900g was expected yup, but it's all you need. In reality he will give much more cos you can then jump on the trading & selling train.
Let's say Wang looks like he goes for Music, you can then abandon the Great Artist plan and head for CS instead. But selling around Aest and eventually Lit too should bring in Currency + hundreds of gold. And you can improve relations with "fair trades".
No war checks if you refuse to stop trading with worst enemies. Sally just needs a little gift for cautious
SPI allows many tricks here, like switching into Hindu for 5t (should keep Paci in most cities)..getting him pleased (with +4 added from fair trade)..begging 1g and back to Budd after 5t.
Thanks. On Taj it would save 350 hammers, not 750. Maybe a typo. That's huge ofc, I'm just a little hesitant because that's looking very far ahead, and I may not even get a chance to build it, or win the race. And I'm worried a city squeezed in there will make Isabella start plotting, and it would be impossible to defend. Failgolding is a good point tho. If I can find the time and hammers to do that. A bit more tricky when not in slavery and with most forests gone.
I did start on a new GM, but it's only one turn so far. Once the city can work 5 specialists again, it's 30 gpp per turn, which is pretty huge. Would only take 10 turns at full pelt currently.
Part of me really want to settle that fairly nice land to the far east. But it will probably become way too expensive, and I'll have to watch Wang and Saladin grab it. Bummer.
Fippy makes a good point about using SPI. I'll have to think about that for sure.
Sometimes I find it difficult to make decisions, because on Deity there is no coming back (for me) if I make wrong calls. So it feels very important to get things right.
Hmm not that much, Currency for Aest costs maybe 200g extra?
But i think that can be taken back with other trades, it's just important to get started on them now while also teching yourself.
Incidentally I've played almost that far myself now (err xposting, you talked about T108 ), taking it slow and (hopefully) steady as per usual
T106. Civil Service.
Spoiler:
Looking at Philo trades for Calendar+Currency, Wang was working on Philo when I bulbed it. I need to pay 200g more with him. Clearly he aborted it, though. Half a whiff later, and I see Wang can tech Music. I did 1-turn Literature afterwards as I figured it would be a good idea to get up the Epics (which ofc didn't happen because they are crazy expensive without marble so early in the game). But I aborted the hunt for the Music GA and went back to Civil Service instead. Wang was already first to Feudalism, and sort-of Theo too, because Mansa got it and traded it away instantly.
I moved in on the second jungle-infested barb city. 3 WCs against 3 archers was futile, and with a ton of AI units around, including a Korean longbow (injured due to killing the 4th archer), I assumed it was a goner. I was therefore mighty pleased when the barb city was left standing with a 0.9 archer left. No idea why those other archers didn't attack, but thanks! 100g while the city is razed. It's a fantastic location, jungle aside, but I'll have to let Wang and Saladin race for it.
Spoiler:
An even more important event: In T99 Gilgamesh declares war on Mansa Musa! Two turns later Gilgamesh asks me to join the war, which I reject. Really don't want to anger Mansa even more. He could be important later. Soon later I see that Gilga has captured a city off Mansa, which turns out to be the Christian holy city (but unshrined). Mansa has longbows now, so can't imagine Gilgamesh will get much more success, but you never know. They can make stupid mistakes, like sending lone catapults to retake cities...
I said earlier I didn't want to ruin the Philo monopoly, but it was probably time. I used it to get Calendar+Currency with Isabella. I figured she wouldn't trade it away right away at least, so I had some time. Earlier suspicions were also correct. Isabella was building something nice.
Spoiler:
I've kinda wanted to be on her good side, but she's starting to paint a big target on her back.
Oh, and btw, I did settle two more cities with the earlier settlers. The whales location, and south of the capital, ignoring crabs for now. They cost a fair bit, but Currency helps a lot. With 11 cities, that's something like +24 (some are worth 3). Feels like I've barely traded anything, but Isabella already thinks I'm too advanced. No Metal Casting for you!!!
This hurt a little due to almost everybody hating Mansa, but I gave him Philo+Aesthetics for Feudalism+50g. Then Philo to Wang for Metal Casting. Then sold Aesthetics to Isabella for her 160g, and I gifted it to Saladin to get him back to Cautious, and stop being his worst enemy. At this point we went from barbarics to Vassalage. It saved a little gold, but only 2-3 due to higher costs. Timing was okay though. 3 turns until Civil Service, and 5 turns until the second GM is out (yes, I did do that...... ). To hold back a little on trades due to WFYABTA, I'm going to self-tech Masonry+Mono. I quite desperately need some courthouses, and would like to whip with OF into National Epic in Heliopolis (looks like the best spot, tho the capital may want the corn back at some point). Therefore I'm planning to go Buro+Slavery in two turns, while sending that new GM all the way to Korea. With both my capital and Wonsan being rather large, I hope for a bigger payout than 1100g. Is that realistic?
St. Petersburg started working on a GS with 3 scientists. Kind of a shame to not work some of those recently built cottages, but I need a GS or two as well. I'm hoping it will work out well with one from St. Petersburg, and another from Heliopolis.
This is my last horse, but it felt like a deal too good to turn down.
Spoiler:
Meanwhile there were three simultaneous settler parties within earshot, two Arabian and one Korean. Saladin has already settled one city (plus the first razed barb city, with pigs+corn). I expect Wang to settle exactly where the recently razed barb city was, but we'll see. It would grab no less than 5 resources. Hopefully Saladin goes for the floodplains area, or maybe he wants the same spot Wang does. I've chopped a settler as well, which I intend to put further north, to block off the iron location over the remains of a Russian city. The blocker can take the corn from Mauryan, and also grab a third horse. It will cost, but like @krikav wrote somewhere, it's important to grab land, and techs can be sorted later. Maybe...?
Right about now it became apparent that Wang did indeed not go for Music next. Suddenly he has Machinery, so I could have beaten him. Gilgamesh was the first to CS, but I'm still trying to tell myself it was a good move to go for CS. With such a good capital, Buro will be excellent there. And unlike Academy and suchlike, Buro helps with research turned off as well (commerce boost, not science). I assume it's too late to try for Music now. And after grabbing Mono I can't afford it anyway. Unless good trades show up.
Overview map that is fairly zoomed out, but maybe people can make out enough details. The settler from Moscow will found a city on the green hill, to block off north-east fish. There is also an island over there, which I hope has food. The two galleys are on the way over there, to check it out, and hopefully deal with that pesky barb galley that has prevented me from improving seafood in Mauryan. Do have MC now so could get out a trireme, but think I'd prefer to 'use' a whip on a courthouse, because that city costs and absolute fortune!
Spoiler:
Sorry for all the markers
I'm trying to prepare some whips btw. IIRC there is a 22/60 lighthouse that will turn into a pile of OF with OR. Many farms also needed for irrigation. Sadly I need to tear down the cottage north of Pi-Ramesses. It's the least hurtful way to irrigate the corn there.
Current plans are to put National Epic in Heliopolis, and Heroic Epic in Moscow. It has a decent amount of hills, and hasn't been entirely cottaged yet. It's not a quick build, though, and at this point in the game there are soooooo many things that needs doing. Forges and some courthouses for example, seem like top priorities. Am also putting some hammers into Shwedagon, as it's the only wonder with a bonus resource I have access to.
I am quite pleased with the look of Thebes, and Heliopolis doesn't look shabby either.
Spoiler:
Techs and suchlike. Gilgamesh and Saladin are currently somewhat backwards. Wang is going nuts with a thousand happy resources and commerce off the chart. Worrying!
Spoiler:
Thanks to all these resources on offer, Thebes has been able to grow large.
Diplo is still tricky, but looks less dangerous now. Also bought a short safety window with Isabella.
Feels a bit better now as I have some plans, and hopefully those are decent plans. The economy is better as well, largely due to Currency (and gpt trades), and we're breaking even at roughly 35% currently.
Please check out the screenshots and save and let me know what you think, and what you would do. Although a second GM isn't exactly what was suggested earlier, it's kinda nice to do things differently than the usual beaten path, and I did think it made some sense here given the state of the economy. It can still be aborted ofc, but that will be awkward.
Edit: Good gracious balls of fire! That was a much longer post than I thought. Sorry. Not tw*tter approved
Attachments
Pangaea Deity BC-0225-Civil Service, revolt in two turns when I can.CivBeyondSwordSave
Good point but it's okay
Just cannot take everything serious (esp. american views and politics, no offense Lymond), but occasionally i find interesting stuff in OT.
Interesting question on marble.
Only Moscow has some forests left, so Glib would have to go there.
Would be an interesting play, could chop that out quickly then gift Izzy the city.
With a settler already available i'd say go for it Those type of plays really spark life into games.
Game coming along well
Not sure if Helio can get a 2nd GS in time after GM, but maybe. 7 specialists after growth are nice.
One bulb on Edu, later another for Lib (with compass and no machinery).
Next tech paper? This one should be held back to delay the AIs progress towards Lib, eventually.
NE looks unimportant without marble & cities already working on GP, i think there are better things to do.
Next tech paper? This one should be held back to delay the AIs progress towards Lib, eventually.
NE looks unimportant without marble & cities already working on GP, i think there are better things to do.
Thanks Fippy. That gives me a good excuse to ignore NE for the time being. And Paper looks like a solid choice yeah. I need to be quick about it if I am to beat these coming beasts to Lib.
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I lost the bonus from being a small civilization, so now not even Mansa is willing to trade techs.
points.
in Basra. Will allow 10 turns of research, or in reality less due to having two settlers out too.
(some are worth 3). Feels like I've barely traded anything, but Isabella already thinks I'm too advanced. No Metal Casting for you!!! 
). To hold back a little on trades due to WFYABTA, I'm going to self-tech Masonry+Mono. I quite desperately need some courthouses, and would like to whip with OF into National Epic in Heliopolis (looks like the best spot, tho the capital may want the corn back at some point). Therefore I'm planning to go Buro+Slavery in two turns, while sending that new GM all the way to Korea. With both my capital and Wonsan being rather large, I hope for a bigger payout than 1100g. Is that realistic?
