[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

Continued with that second go to T60-ish. Stalin keeps ruining my plans.
Spoiler :
Decided to try a War Chariot rush, from 3 cities. Founded #3 on the hill near Stalin's pig. But why did the bugger have to park 5-6 archers in there? I moved my guys away for a little while to see if they scared him, but no, still a horde of archers in there. Frustrating.

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I'll comment on this more, but a key strategy of early wars is to "go for the heart", so to speak. Build a road to their capital and core, and when you declare, strike at it directly, bypassing the border city/cities that contain their archer ministacks, like this. If you take just 2-3 key cities you can basically cripple them so badly they won't be able to fight back for the rest of the game (and also likely pillage/deny them metal).

The added benefit of this is that, when you declare, said border city garrisons will likely actually walk out of the city to try to attack one of your cities. Usually these garrisons consist of only archers, but for some reason the AI actually has them on UNIT_AI_ATTACK, stupidly enough, so when they walk out on the open field, you can easily clean them with axes/WCs/whatever rush unit you're using by just keeping a few in reserve in your own land. Then, promote these guys to CRI/II or CI/II after they win their fights, and then roll over their border cities that are now minimally defended at the same time that you wipe their core. Unless they had metal for a while and are spamming axes/spears, or have something like a hilled PRO holy city, this should grant you a completely decisive victory in just half a dozen turns, maybe even less.

For added cheese, you could leave them alive with one city, but not make peace, to farm workers and eventually when you get alphabet, extort like 500-1000 beakers' worth of techs from them for peace.
 
Add in capturing barb city and that should be enough for HBR+ like turn into Alpha, which you could try ASAP as Issy finishes it. Well, your neighbours are not beelining HBR type thankfully.
You would go for HBR here instead? The suggested plan so far has been CoL, and then possibly bulb Philo.

Thanks for the advice everybody. I need to cut some costs, so maybe I ought to delete those exploring warriors after all. Then cottage time, and hope for a bit more capture gold. Kinda hope the barb city looks like crap so I have an excuse to raze it. A city that far away will cost a bomb. Pretty sure there must be an AI west of Isabella because she had EPs on others early on. And with a GG born, that should mean both are in that direction. So maybe keep that warrior and delete the one in Arabia. I like to keep them around for later MP duty, but gotta save money here. It's pretty terrible to be losing gold at 0%.

About bypassing Novgorod and going for the core, that is something I thought about. But then it felt a bit wasted when I couldn't properly bypass the city, because the next tile was on a forested hill. So decided to have a go and then save turns moving later. Thankfully it worked out allright, but I was a little lucky I think. Won a couple 35-40% fights. Helped that it was flatland without culture defence. Also amazing that Stalin had so much land here, and seemingly no metal except the one in a razed city.

It's a very strange map tbh. Huge bits of land has been explored so far, and not a single resource of happiness anywhere (except whales, which I don't really count as it's so late). Certainly plenty of food tho, so if I can recover the economy, maybe it's possible to find a win somehow?

Don't think I can afford to settle cities right now, but what do you think about the seafood? Usually I would split those up and have two cities. Better for whipping later, and it's just a habit I tend to use for making better use of the land. But an option is also to found a city 2E of crabs that gets both crabs and fish. Would waste a forest, but keeps the riverside grassland I'll otherwise have to settle on. Also thought about an aggressive city 2S of dry corn, and try to steal the cow. It can help with some cottages, but otherwise it's just filler. Possibly unrealistic to steal that cow, tho, given Saladin's UB pumps out culture, which he probably has everywhere already.
 
You would go for HBR here instead? The suggested plan so far has been CoL, and then possibly bulb Philo.
I would go for tech I can realistically reach from the current situation and which very likely would get Alpha, ASAP. Yes, I would go for it like 100% from that save.
 
Thanks. I'm now conflicted on what to do :D Thought CoL was a good plan, as it also opens up paths forward. HBR is usually something I avoid unless I plan to use HAs or elepults. Sounds like it can be a good trade chip, tho, I'm just a little unsure if I 'dare' go all-in for that.

(edit: xposted, this was in reply to @Snowbird )

Haven't dared to read your T84 update yet since I've only played to T75 myself, but seeing Stalin with 9 cities, there is probably a lot of room over on that side. Your empire looks in solid shape, albeit perhaps a little short on cities (soon amended). With a peaceful approach, it would have been nice to grab that floodplains area that Saladin stole, but it is what it is. What would your long-term approach be here? Cuirs breakout?
 
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Can always tech Metal Casting... forges have lots of theoretical potential. :rolleyes:

p.s. IIRC, early stat screens showed that Mansa is in the game. As far as understand there are at least two unmet AI (behind Issy and Saladin). so the chances that Mansa is in the contact range are quite high. But you know the worst case scenario forges will help with research building or something.
 
10. spoilers about other AI.
Spoiler :

Got alpha in on T85, would use it to get IW, sailing and maybe smthing else and would not be in the research hole anymore.

So, under your scenario if isssy tech CoL next and Mansa shows up - and he did at ~T84. And there is still like three turns to CoL. What is the great plan? No monarchy, no way to run mass specs and the tech trade festival going further on.

I have not been following the forums so maybe smthing changed, but CoL was never high on get out of economy hole list. Must have been reasons for that... I just can't recall them on the moment.

If you do not get CoL fast enough to nab religion it is more risky than HRB, IMHO. Aesthetics maybe woth something, but without marble not too hot either.


For the record, got the job to do, so do not plan to read this dubious (as in research PH while doing rush) thread anymore. Cheers.
 
I have not been following the forums so maybe smthing changed, but CoL was never high on get out of economy hole list. Must have been reasons for that... I just can't recall them on the moment.

That would be because of its prerequisites. Probably more significant argument against CoL is that there are at least two religious nutts in this game. It is a real stroke of luck that Isabella is teching Alphabet, and for all we know Mansa could be a couple of turns away from CoL.

BTW, I do not believe that ability to build research is such a small thing in this commerce-poor environment.
 
For the record, got the job to do, so do not plan to read this dubious (as in research PH while doing rush) thread anymore. Cheers.
Is it really necessary with these jabs at people? Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Definitely another way to go, and if I were to take on another AI, HBR could be useful for that as well. Or if it was possible to take it from WCs to elepults (in general, not in this map). I've not read your spoiler yet, but I will later. Sounds like you did well to get HBR and recover quickly.

GM huh, @Fippy? In that case, I'd better not get out a GS first, which would perhaps also mean a Philo bulb is pointless as others are bound to have it by then? How much gold can one get so early in the game? Is it 900? Only 700? I forget. Do it too rarely tbh. Tend to keep getting GSes for bulbing or Golden Ages.

Sorry for lack of progress here btw. I've been busy with a BOTM game, and was unsure how to proceed with these different opinions being brought forward. Seems like a very important moment in the game. Need to recover the economy, and get Alpha++. Since Mansa is supposed to be in the world somewhere, tech pace will probably be quick in this game, so I will likely need to focus on getting to Lib pretty soon if I am to win the race. Mansa is always a stiff competitor, though he does thankfully sometimes favour Economics over Lib if given the choice.
 
900 gold minimum, if TOA can be found 1.1k.
So you can have that gold very quickly, nearest city would do :)

Not saying it's always best going there but if i could have any of those reachable techs with SPI for free, it would most likely be CoL.
Also assuming you are not looking for another war, and recovery with lots of captured cities is needed. Could also fill out more land with GM gold, just one nice option.

Mansa ran away with the Survivor championship due to his merchants, @lymond will remember how he mentioned to them "GM are better than shrines" :D
 
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Mansa ran away with the Survivor championship due to his merchants, @lymond will remember how he mentioned to them "GM are better than shrines" :D
Cool. I missed all those games again. Always interesting to see how the AI does when up against each other.

I'm leaning towards trying for CoL and birthing a GM. A bunch of gold would come in real handy, would give me time to recover the economy while still teching. Well... first I need to get to CoL one way or another, which is the most immediate issue :o
 
Cool. I missed all those games again. Always interesting to see how the AI does when up against each other.

I'm leaning towards trying for CoL and birthing a GM. A bunch of gold would come in real handy, would give me time to recover the economy while still teching. Well... first I need to get to CoL one way or another, which is the most immediate issue :o

You could also get a GS to bulb philo (with caste system). Trading that around increases the chance you’ll be beaten to lib, but it’s a faster recovery, and with this much food you can just get 2 more GS to bulb edu and then lib itself :).
 
I'll post a quick-ish update here before I forget some details. Only T76 so far, but I'll play a little further and try to recover.
Spoiler :
Looking at land and EPs again, I'm less sure if both AIs are on Isabella's side. The land may actually connect horizontally here between Isabella and Stalin, since three AIs have met others. Deleted the warrior in Arabia but kept the other. Busted two mines (12+14g woot). Upon first next turn, Saladin also demanded I swap to Hinduism, which I did. Isabella doesn't like that, but I may swap to hers later if she demands it. Buddhism is more spread. I hope this won't mean she cancels her two missionaries in my land, or sends them elsewhere.

The change meant Thebes is happy again (but with 1 war anger). Plans changed several times as I went through cities and looked at what workers could do, but I hope these city screens look okay. For now I have also turned research back on. Only enough for 3 turns, but we're breaking even currently (-1g/turn at 0%) so it should be fine. Once chariots have moved/healed, I'll try to assault the last Russian city, and then move to the barb city. There is another barb city south of the razed jungle city near Saladin, but I'll try to take that one later, unless Saladin captures it first. Maybe those two cities will be enough to get to CoL, with a little luck. Hopefully Stalin has a couple workers there too, and only archers/chariots. The city looks to be on flatland, so that is good. The land over that way is actually blocked off right now, from Saladin, so unless an AI can get to it from the other side, we should be fine to backfill it later.

Overview of city screens, with a few notes. I'm trying to restrict 1-popping now, but will do the granary in Rostov.
Spoiler :
In an earlier plan, Thebes was kept clean for a GM later, but then I decided it was better to hire a scientist than work the mine. The granary will be chop-assisted, but probably not whipped. Two last river tiles will then be cottaged. Capital needs to work them itself now, but later helper cities north (with seafood) will help.

Hatty Deity T76 Thebes.jpg


Memphis is working on the first GS, and I changed last citizen to the coast. Need all the commerce I can get. Chop will go into granary. Can't whip there atm.

Hatty Deity T76 Memphis.jpg


Heliopolis has taken the wet corn from Thebes and will grow in two turns. Current thinking is that it then two-pops the granary. Plenty of food there, so it can work on a GM next. Assuming GS comes first, maybe it can bulb Philo, the GM gold will be a fair bit down the path, but it still sounded like a good plan. Otherwise I can do the usual thing and work on several GS and bulb into Edu or something like that.

Hatty Deity T76 Heliopolis.jpg


Novgorod changed from mine to coast, as the worker is 1-turned naturally anyway. These extra workers will cost gold, but seems like I need more anyway. I dislike letting half-built units degrade, so the WC has been put back in the queue. Not sure what to do with him yet, but it's possible I let him finish. It's also a possibility to two-pop the library with lots of overflow.

Hatty Deity T76 Novgorod.jpg


Rostov. Here I'm thinking to 1-pop the granary in 3 turns when it hits 30/60. A worker will get to the forest next turn for chopping, so maybe that will go into a library. We'll see.

Hatty Deity T76 Rostov.jpg


St Petersburg is a bit undecided. There are fine tiles here to work, it can also take over the horse. Available workers have gone for chops instead of the free cow for now. May just slowbuild something with a chop. The worker can be 1-popped next turn, but think I'll hold off on that. Maybe change to granary and chop into that instead. Hmm.

Hatty Deity T76 St Petersburg.jpg


Moscow will two-pop the worker next turn. It's unhappy anyway, and Stalin won't die for a few turns yet. It should get two cottages on the river tiles, and then it will also get access to cow in 5 turns. It has access to 8 forests.

Hatty Deity T76 Moscow.jpg


Here is an overview map of the land, which just about covers everything with the default zoom setting (42). It seems wrong to change that somehow, seeing as it's the answer to everything and all :nerd:
Spoiler :
Hatty Deity T76 map.jpg

Apparently all of them only have chariots for now, which seems a bit odd, but then I don't plan to DOW anybody right now anyway. Hopefully Isabella doesn't instantly start plotting now that she's annoyed. Just the way it is with a religious nutter like that. She should have demanded religion change first, and I would have done it. Saladin has another Hindu on the way too, so both have been rather busy.
 

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Thanks for the comment and critique. It's a difficult balance, I agree, particularly on Deity. When waging war there, it's often a case of needing to go "all in" or risking to fail the war, which in effect means game over. Hence why I chopped WCs like crazy. With hindsight, maybe some chops could have gone into workers instead, but you never know this in advance.

I've now played to T85. Was going to play one more for a "nicer" stopping point, but I need to make some big-ish decisions, so will stop now.
Spoiler :
While other WCs are healing, one chap checked out the barb city. They have a worker, nice! Then it spots a Russian settler party. I didn't attack here, to hopefully not spook those archers back to his currently only city.
Hatty Deity T78 Stalin settler party.jpg


The AI sure doesn't waste time here. Saladin brings a settler party too, for the razed jungle city. He ends up settling it where I would have, on the jungle tile north of rice. Amazing that rice hasn't been jungled yet, with three jungles around it. Sometimes the RNG is kind.
Hatty Deity T79 Saladin settler party.jpg


The archers started moving back and the settler presumably went north alone (this can happen when threatened, oddly enough). A worker ended up on that tile with a bad message, which my WC snagged. Next turn a spear sadly killed him and the worker, but I didn't know he had any metal units left :( The WC was damaged after farming a barb archer, so the spear had a very easy 99.9% fight.

But the good thing is that the spear is out of the city, and can't get back in time. I'm sending in the units, although all aren't fully healed yet. The WC SE of Moscow was part of the stack, but went back and around (avoid river attack) to farm an archer that got tempted by the empty Moscow.
Hatty Deity T80 Move in on Moscow.jpg


Still two archers in the city, and the spear plus two more archers are coming back -- but not in time! Sadly I can't get to the free worker, but what are you gonna do. There is another one inside the city (or maybe it was the previously stranded settler, I don't recall).
Hatty Deity T81 Attack Moscow.jpg


Very fortunate in this attack, as the first two war chariots win their fights at 35%. We take the city. Turns out it has no food, so it's razed to the ground. Then all improvements are busted over the coming few turns, while other units heal before the barb city. Also turns out the city had a settled GG, that I previously thought was born elsewhere in the world. But this hadn't dawned on me yet...
Hatty Deity T81 Moscow captured.jpg


The barb city isn't taken until now in T85, but oh boy that's a nice one! Had a worker inside too. It will cost a bomb, but it's simply too good and too big to raze. The city brings in 98:gold:, which combined with a 20% slider last turn, is enough to get us to CoL in one turn by a hair. Sadly Wang founded Confucianism this turn, but it's still a good target.
Hatty Deity T85 barb city taken.jpg


In the meantime I've met Gilgamesh over in the west, and the long-awaited Mansa Musa finally showed up. Seems like he has been scouting in Arabia, so probably bad luck we haven't met him yet. Don't know where he is located, though, and it's actually possible it's south of Saladin. Doesn't look like there is room west of Gilgamesh, though it's possible he is south of him somewhere. Wang also circumnavigated the world, so it's all connected for scouts and/or workboats.

This is the overview map in T85.
Hatty Deity T85 map.jpg


There is also a barb city south/east of Saladin (not room for that picture, as I hit the 10 threshold), and surprisingly enough I've found some floodplains. The coast has turned out to be a very large "lake". Saladin and possibly others will have access to the land that would normally have been settled by Stalin, so unfortunately it isn't entirely safe for later backfilling.

Thebes currently look like this:
Hatty Deity T85 Thebes.jpg


That's an oddly high happy count, you may notice. What can I say... I love my Wang. Or something! :D :lol:

Tech view and relations.
Spoiler :
Hatty Deity T85 techs.jpg


Hatty Deity T85 relations.jpg


So then... some big decisions. Isabella currently hates me, and there is lots of worst enemy statuses going around. I was thinking about swapping to Buddhism. Worst enemy with Isabella should then disappear by next turn, and I'll be able to trade with her. Hopefully I can get Alpha for CoL with Mansa (do I need a part-turn into Alpha?), but I'd like to do more trades that turn, or else Mansa may share CoL to anybody with a pulse.

Relations here are tricky. Mansa and Gilgamesh have double worst enemy status. One trade may be okay, at least a bit more long term, but I'd like to avoid too many negative hits. Currently there is definitely risk of somebody randomly starting to plot on me, which would suck. Isabella isn't the WE of anybody, so it makes some sense to change religion to hers. Saladin may hate me then, but it's hard to please two zealots like that.

Perhaps this is a bad idea, but I'm also thinking about getting out a settler (or two) for the northern seafood cities. Since they are close to the capital, hopefully the economic hit won't be too terrible. It seems kinda bad to not get those up and running. With Alpha hopefully in next turn, I should be able to build research at least. The GS is out in 4 turns, and with Math+Alpha trade it will be possible to bulb Philo. Probably ought to keep that for a while?

Think this is quite unusual; Wang has been wonderwhoring hard. He's also working on Artemis (denies Poly trade, doesn't have Aesthetics). Haven't located him yet, but shouldn't be too far away I should think. Good target for the GM later, if I go down that path. That is probably the best idea I guess, now when we can soon go Caste? The economy is still in tatters, roughly break even at 0%.

That was a ton of details, sorry about that. Would love to hear what you think, though, and how you would play this one yourselves from here.
 
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Regarding next tech - might this be a time to self tech currency? No one else has it yet and would help significantly here.
 
Nice, you have to switch out of Hindu this turn. Worst enemy stays for the actual turn even if relations improve to cautious.
So next turn would be too late for an Izzy trade.

I'd recommend not taking any Reli, Izzy will be +-0 and that will do for now :)
Switching into Budd would make Sally annoyed (already got 2 negatives there with close borders & friend dow). Means 5t wait until a new decision can be made, but annoying Sally now looks dangerous (and no possible trade).

I still like the GM plan with Paci.
Very nice fishing villages to be settled, but you'd be very broke without GM :gold: ;)
Helio looks perfect for getting him quickly.
 
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Do you need alphabet and maths to clear philo bulb?

Can you afford city maintenance for Mauryan once its out of revolt?

If you revolt to caste can you run merchants?
 
Nice, you have to switch out of Hindu this turn. Worst enemy stays for the actual turn even if relations improve to cautious.
So next turn would be too late for an Izzy trade.
Yep, that is why I stopped this turn, I wanted views on that :)

I'd recommend not taking any Reli, Izzy will be +-0 and that will do for now
Oddly enough, I didn't think about going no religion, but that is indeed the best option. Maybe Isabella will send more missionaries again too? Not sure how that mechanic works. By going no religion none of them will outright hate me, and Isabella will probably start hating Mansa, meaning he is the worst enemy of three others. Not a great idea to trade a lot with him. But although Mansa would be willing to trade, they won't, so it fairly effectively limits some of the tech pace. Although as noted by @BornInCantaloup, Mansa and Wang will most likely trade heavily between each other, which is not good. Wang will have a strong economy here due to FIN + Great Lighthouse. With such a weird map as this, GLH is likely to be very powerful.

Just got home after being away for most of the day, but may fire up the game for a look at trade options. I'd like to get as much as possible, but ideally without angering the entire world due to a mish-mash of worst enemy statuses. Tricky diplomacy here.

I like how different the GP use is in this game, very refreshing from the usual Academy, bulb Education.
I agree, this is a nice aspect, and it's good to train on different uses of them. Easy to fall back on the "default" of Academy + bulbing Education (++) towards Lib, then Cuirs or Cannons. May have to end up with the latter part anyway, because the age of War Chariots is over. Isabella has swords, Gilgamesh has Vultures, and Saladin has metal too. But very glad I managed to smack Stalin around with minimum problems from metal units :)

With that, think the overall plan will be:
  • Change to no religion (for the time being) to stop being the worst enemy of Isabella, while not having Saladin become annoyed at me. This will allow trades with Isabella next turn, when CoL is done
  • Going HR would be nice, but probably can't Monarchy so soon, so will go Caste directly, and start running merchants in (probably) Heliopolis. Do any whips I want before the swap.
  • Alpha + Math shouldn't be a problem, and hopefully I can bulb Philo before others. There is a risk in giving away CoL too soon, tho, because it opens up the bulb for others as well... :o
  • Once Philo is in, change to Pacifism. Will also need to pick a religion at this point. I too favour Buddhism. It is more well-spread than Hinduism (worldwide), two AIs have it, so only Saladin will truly hate me for it. That is bad, but if he does declare, maybe I can bribe in Isabella?
  • A few more workers would probably come in handy. Lots of land to improve, and I'll soon have 9 cities, 10 workers for 9 cities isn't a lot, especially in view of all the tiles that need improvements.
  • I still got half a mind to just settle one city in the north, though I suppose it is better long term to split them up. If I go with only one, I need to chop that forest before it's killed by the settler. Work boat(s) in the queue were meant for those resources. With a barb galley off the eastern coast, it's pointless to scout that way. Speaking of that, I need Sailing, and ideally Metal Casting.
  • Next tech...? No idea. Civil Service is perhaps too aggressive. Currency sounds like a good option here, provided none of these jokers beat me to it en masse. Self-teching will likely be slow for a while.
That was a bit more than just clear plans :o Sometimes thinking out loud can be good.
 
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