[BTS] Sub-1400 deity space win, attempt 2

[Fish Man]

Alright, I'm making another attempt at this after the last failure.

This time I'm playing as Willem - a top-tier civ, no doubt, and reusing an old NC map as before so we're guaranteed to not get anything too overpowered. Still, wet corn, triple clam, gold, and a river is pretty good

The Celts boxed me in before t100 which meant that horse archers were my only way of surviving the early game. Miraculously, I marched a stack of 8 or so on their capital, which was walled and heavily defended, and won 4 20% odds battles in a row. Narrowly took it. They also...marched the rest of their archers into my territory, where 3 HAs and a chariot made short work of them. After this and a bit more ridiculous luck (3.6% victory against fortified hilltop Gallic warrior???), Celts are dead, and arguably the best land in the game is mine.

Now it's about 1200 BC, I have 19 cities and most classical era techs, destroyed 2 civs, and am about to elepault the daylights out of someone. I'm thinking attack order is Sitting Bull -> Cyrus -> Charlie, and leave Zara alive as a trading partner since he's naturally friendly and a good attack dog. However, a case could be made for leaving Cyrus alive since he doesn't declare at pleased and once he's reached longbows (which he is 1 tech away from...) it's going to be near impossible to take him on. Techwise...civil service, then printing press. After that onto steam power and lib railroad before rushing corporation for mining inc ASAP? I also have to do something about the new world and astro; this is a terra map after all...

Seems like there's no way to pop a GS as my first GP. Which might actually be good, since if I get a GM I could get money which I'm super short on right now. I could also build/whip courthouses though. And if I get a prophet that's going to be terrible.

Failgold seems to be off the table unfortunately, since I'm not industrious and have no special resources. That is, unless I take some from someone...I'm pretty sure someone's building HG since everyone has math so if I could grab stone real quick that'd be great. Sitting Bull has some that's ripe for the taking.

Thoughts on what to do next?

 

[Anysense]

A few thoughts:
1. Conquer more land.
2. SB with lonbows would be a pain in the neck, better kill him sooner than later. He also has a good tech, which he will probably give for peace.
3. I don't think Cyrus is going to be too hard to crack. Protective longbows are rather a trouble, but ordinary ones can be broken by elepult.
4. Money is an issue. It will take a lot of city micromanagement to get everything right.
For example, Tolosa could share sheep with Verlamion. Whip courthouse with a chop in Tolosa? May be, whip a couple of WE instead and finish catapult with overflow?
Also, I suggest you stop slow-building units; build wealth and use only whip for units.

 

[Fish Man]

A few thoughts:
1. Conquer more land.
2. SB with lonbows would be a pain in the neck, better kill him sooner than later. He also has a good tech, which he will probably give for peace.
3. I don't think Cyrus is going to be too hard to crack. Protective longbows are rather a trouble, but ordinary ones can be broken by elepult.
4. Money is an issue. It will take a lot of city micromanagement to get everything right.
For example, Tolosa could share sheep with Verlamion. Whip courthouse with a chop in Tolosa? May be, whip a couple of WE instead and finish catapult with overflow?
Also, I suggest you stop slow-building units; build wealth and use only whip for units.

Planning to outright destroy SB, Cyrus, and the HRE. Should I tech feudalism to vassal them instead?

I’ve already whipped/chopped quite a lot but cats are too easy to put too much production into.

Don’t want courthouses in former celt cities yet. Those are my main elepault farms. Chinese cities OTOH...

 

[krikav]

Not much I can help with I think.
Did take a look at the save, not used to marathon at all.
Only thing I can say is that I would whip a lighthouse in Amsterdam.

Perhaps you can do something fun with culture pressure with your holy cities?
Sorry I can't be more helpful.

 

[Fish Man]

Not much I can help with I think.
Did take a look at the save, not used to marathon at all.
Only thing I can say is that I would whip a lighthouse in Amsterdam.

Perhaps you can do something fun with culture pressure with your holy cities?
Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Yeah, Confucianism got founded exactly where I wanted it to be. Could probably steal some tiles from Cyrus but unless I add like a wonder there it's unlikely I'll flip the gold city, much less anything else.

Also...Amsterdam has enough food. A wet corn and 3 clams is plenty even without a LH. And besides we don't want to work plain coast for a while; just cottages, scientists, the gold, and maybe another mine or two and we hit our happy cap that we can whip down from.

 

[Fish Man]

A few thoughts:
1. Conquer more land.
2. SB with lonbows would be a pain in the neck, better kill him sooner than later. He also has a good tech, which he will probably give for peace.
3. I don't think Cyrus is going to be too hard to crack. Protective longbows are rather a trouble, but ordinary ones can be broken by elepult.
4. Money is an issue. It will take a lot of city micromanagement to get everything right.
For example, Tolosa could share sheep with Verlamion. Whip courthouse with a chop in Tolosa? May be, whip a couple of WE instead and finish catapult with overflow?
Also, I suggest you stop slow-building units; build wealth and use only whip for units.

One more thing: Ethiopia is bribable on SB, for cheap. I could war, bribe Zara, leave SB w/ one city, make peace and take metal casting, and then leave Zara to take care of the remnants.

PS do you not see the whip anger in Bibracte...been whipping quite a lot there.

Also...should I capitulate anyone - if so, feuda or CS?

 

[sampsa]

Also...Amsterdam has enough food. A wet corn and 3 clams is plenty even without a LH. And besides we don't want to work plain coast for a while; just cottages, scientists, the gold, and maybe another mine or two and we hit our happy cap that we can whip down from.

+3pt is nothing to sneeze at though. Way better than growing to work a mine at least. Of course, building something else might be better than building a lighthouse.

 

[Fish Man]

t274, Charlie has capitulated. Cyrus still doesn't have feudalism yet, and what's even better, his main stack appears to be a paltry 7-8 units...easy pickings for my elepaults and, moreover, superHAs. Seriously. I have like 4-5 HAs with combat IV or above. Past a certain point they become 2-move phants that ignore first strikes, and with combat VI they're stronger than an unpromoted knight - I have 2 of those.

My bpt is through the roof and I'm like 5 techs ahead of the Rome game. I'm also able to somewhat research things at about 30% slider, believe it or not. Also, GLH hasn't been built yet. I'm seriously considering going for it.

After capping Cyrus it's full steam towards steam power (pun intended) - on the path to railroad. Then dikes, dikes everywhere. Meanwhile I'll get optics somehow and send an explorer or two to nab astro from the new world. There's probably like a dozen huts there, astro has to be in one of them.

Thoughts on what I should tech now - paper or machinery? CR maces look appealing as they're 2-pop whips w/ forges. Whatever I choose, printing press is next.

 

[Fish Man]

Everyone except Zara is capped. I'm thinking of leaving him alone for the rest of the game. His land is crappy jungle without much corp resources anyways; don't want it. And besides I have a whole another continent. He might start plotting...then again, once I get big enough he won't even think about it. Does vassal power factor into my power for calculating whether or not an AI can plot?

Should I trust my vassals to get anything for me? They're so crippled at this point it hardly matters what they research, but perhaps I could squeeze something like nationalism out of Charlie?

It's 520 BC and I'm 1/3 through printing press. Thinking bulb edu -> chemistry next (academy feels inconsequential considering I have so many cities). Should probably build the heroic epic somewhere (thankfully Charlie has marble).

@Anysense any advice? I've been taking it slowly, about 50-100 turns at a time max, and I think I'm doing much better than last time.

EDIT: plan for economy now is to 2-pop whip some libraries and failgold MoM. CRE + FIN is awesome

 

[Anysense]

Charlie might be able to research Optics in time. Nationalism you will need soon for corps.

I think you are allowing some of your cities to grow too big. Is it worth it? I did not go into details much.
Nine Sushi resources, two irons and possible coal are a good reason to take all of Zara's cotinental cities. Let him live in his small and cozy banana republic. The rule of thumb is 'the earlier the better', but you could wait till cannons, that would make the job easier.

You need a rough plan for the remainder of the game. For comparison, around 500 BC I had 18 cities and ~200bpt and made 1120 AD launch. You have 39 cities and can maintain about 400bpt. So, unless something goes wrong you should be able to launch your ship well before 1100 AD!
I'm comparing Small/Epic to Standard/Marathon, so it's probably all wrong.

You need to plan Golden Ages, preferably 4. The fifth one costs 4 GP and is hardly ever worth it, just get 4 more GS for bulbing. Make sure you don't waste waste half of your last GA because you started the first one too late. I don't like using them too early, but if shaves ~10 turns to corp, why not?

Probably, too early for detailed GP plan.

Willem is a fine leader, although I don't value financial much (not in HoF games, anyway), and does not suffer from horrible habit of AI's to settle off-river.

 

[Fish Man]

Charlie might be able to research Optics in time. Nationalism you will need soon for corps.

I think you are allowing some of your cities to grow too big. Is it worth it? I did not go into details much.
Nine Sushi resources, two irons and possible coal are a good reason to take all of Zara's cotinental cities. Let him live in his small and cozy banana republic. The rule of thumb is 'the earlier the better', but you could wait till cannons, that would make the job easier.

You need a rough plan for the remainder of the game. For comparison, around 500 BC I had 18 cities and ~200bpt and made 1120 AD launch. You have 39 cities and can maintain about 400bpt. So, unless something goes wrong you should be able to launch your ship well before 1100 AD!
I'm comparing Small/Epic to Standard/Marathon, so it's probably all wrong.

You need to plan Golden Ages, preferably 4. The fifth one costs 4 GP and is hardly ever worth it, just get 4 more GS for bulbing. Make sure you don't waste waste half of your last GA because you started the first one too late. I don't like using them too early, but if shaves ~10 turns to corp, why not?

Probably, too early for detailed GP plan.

Willem is a fine leader, although I don't value financial much (not in HoF games, anyway), and does not suffer from horrible habit of AI's to settle off-river.

I allow my cities to grow as big as possible, so I can work all riverside cottages and 2 rep scientists.

What about the other continent tho, if I settle that too I will very likely trip the dom limit. And based on what I’ve seem from previous playthroughs the land there is much, much better.

Also Zara’s 3 turns from feudalism, I’d say not worth it right now to take on longbows even with my ultra-HAs.

What’s wrong with fin in HoF games, I think the GNP boost throughout midgame is invaluable. If not for fin I wouldn’t have reached feudalism in time to cap the last 2 targets and wouldn’t have been able to sustain my economy during the conquest.

 

[Anysense]

What about the other continent tho, if I settle that too I will very likely trip the dom limit. And based on what I’ve seem from previous playthroughs the land there is much, much better.

The problem is time. Then there are colonial expenses. Also, with corps the land does not matter that much, it's fine as long as it may be workshopped. Usually there better investments than settling in the new world. For example, only 16 of my cities had Sushi, and spreading Sushi pays back faster than a new distant city. Normally, I just grab corp resources and some heavily forested spots. But again I'm talking about Epic. Time should not be an issue on Marathon.

What’s wrong with fin in HoF games, I think the GNP boost throughout midgame is invaluable. If not for fin I wouldn’t have reached feudalism in time to cap the last 2 targets and wouldn’t have been able to sustain my economy during the conquest.

The point is - I don't build cottages and pillage the ones built by AI. Somehow in 99 cases out of 100 I rule in favour of farms (one can never have too much food). Financial would make it different, but all financial leaders save Huayna lack something important.

For a number of reasons I may change my mind when I start playing Marathon, but I have 2 other big games to play before I get there (standard and large on Epic speed), and those will take several month to finish, as I'm going to be rather busy in the meantime.

 

[Fish Man]

The problem is time. Then there are colonial expenses. Also, with corps the land does not matter that much, it's fine as long as it may be workshopped. Usually there better investments than settling in the new world. For example, only 16 of my cities had Sushi, and spreading Sushi pays back faster than a new distant city. Normally, I just grab corp resources and some heavily forested spots. But again I'm talking about Epic. Time should not be an issue on Marathon.



The point is - I don't build cottages and pillage the ones built by AI. Somehow in 99 cases out of 100 I rule in favour of farms (one can never have too much food). Financial would make it different, but all financial leaders save Huayna lack something important.

For a number of reasons I may change my mind when I start playing Marathon, but I have 2 other big games to play before I get there (standard and large on Epic speed), and those will take several month to finish, as I'm going to be rather busy in the meantime.

Colonial expenses - true, they become pretty crippling later on. Which is why I’m thinking of building Versailles or FP on the other continent; IIRC that completely negates them.

You’re right, time is not an issue. You can cross the entire ocean in basically 1 standard speed turn.

Why are cottages bad? I agree if you’re talking about the unworked and unused grassland 2f1c crapshoots that the AI loves to spam for some reason, but riverside ones or developed hamlets/villages are well worth keeping especially if fin.

The only thing Willem is missing IMO is a god-tier UU.

 

[Anysense]

You can move units across the ocean in one turn using a chain of galleons. By lack of time I meant that I never had enough time to do everything on the mainland, let along the other continent.

Cottages... I would replace them with workshops before they mature, hence not much use without financial. As you noticed, Willem lacks strong unique unit, and UU is exactly what makes Romans so powerful. Their traits are pretty good too and UB is sort of useful, although its effect is negligible.
Cottages developed by AI are by far more attractive and worth keeping. But they are also worth 50-100 each, and I will build workshops over them soon enough anyway, unless there is academy.

 

[Fish Man]

You can move units across the ocean in one turn using a chain of galleons. By lack of time I meant that I never had enough time to do everything on the mainland, let along the other continent.

Cottages... I would replace them with workshops before they mature, hence not much use without financial. As you noticed, Willem lacks strong unique unit, and UU is exactly what makes Romans so powerful. Their traits are pretty good too and UB is sort of useful, although its effect is negligible.
Cottages developed by AI are by far more attractive and worth keeping. But they are also worth 50-100 each, and I will build workshops over them soon enough anyway, unless there is academy.

Workshops don't really come into play until I get two of either caste, guilds, or chemistry. And even then they're pretty mediocre - grass mines aren't the best tiles to work in the first place so why'd you want so much of their workshop equivalent? I still have stuff I want to whip, so can't switch into caste yet.

Cottages don't have to mature to be incredibly powerful under financial. The effect of financial is greatest in the early game, where it might as well read "+1 commerce every river and coast tile" or "+50% commerce for every cottage". In fact during the late game I agree stuff like org or phi can be better.

Actually, now I'm curious - what exactly is your tile improvement strat? Workshops are basically lame ducks until you get further into tech and farms are meh anyways until biology - how on earth do you research so fast without a lot of cottages before the hammer economy kicks in?

 

[Anysense]

Actually, now I'm curious - what exactly is your tile improvement strat? Workshops are basically lame ducks until you get further into tech and farms are meh anyways until biology - how on earth do you research so fast without a lot of cottages before the hammer economy kicks in?

Thats a very interesting question. The main idea is to get to the domination limit as soon as possible. Thus the best investment is units, even stuff like Oxford has to wait until I don't need untis anymore. Naturally, that makes farms and mines preferable improvements.

How I research so fast I don't know, still waiting for HoF update so I can peruse saves. But may be, I'm not researching that fast? Your bpt is above 800 at 100%, which is 4 times as big as mine around the same date. Although your sustainable bpt is 'only' 400, its still much better than I did so far in my games, and you are playing almost a normal map!

 

[krikav]

Colonial expenses - true, they become pretty crippling later on. Which is why I’m thinking of building Versailles or FP on the other continent; IIRC that completely negates them.

I did abit of digging into this matter during the NC game, hope this can be useful:

Versailles or FP does not completly negate colonial expenses.
Colonial expenses are set two times the "distance from palace expense".
Such that if you have a city that is paying 7 in upkeep for number of cities and10 in upkeep from distance, the colonial expense for such a city is 20. For a total of 37GPT.
So a well placed FP close to cities that are very distant have an extreme effect on their upkeep.

Since if you can get the distance upkeep in the example city (7+10+20) down to 2 instead of 10, the colonial expense will be reduced to 4 instead of 20.
State property negates both these types of upkeep though.

If you limit yourself to 2 cities on a new landmass, you don't trigger the colonial expense, making it more bearable.

Example:
1 city, 7+10= 17 in upkeep
2 cities, 2* (7+10) = 34
3 cities, 3*(7+10+20)= 111

A usefull strategy might be to settle just two cities in the absolute best spots, and wait untill you are close to communism to go on a rex rampage.