Subdue Animals mod for RoM

[Killtech]

the problem with animal and food resources is that they behave different then we are used form reality. in reality it is: one time access to a animal, always access to an animal. no matter how you got it as long as it was alive.

as for transporting horses... hmm, i don't like that. maybe another approach? if someone loses any kind of cavalry unit in a fight there is a chance to produce a horse resource in that area on a unimproved plot if -and only if- there is no other horse resource in 20 tile radius on the same land mass.

solves the strategic horse resource problem. you just need someone to import them and a little war. works for ivory, too.

as for the other animal resources: multiple approaches possible.
1) a national wonder (domesticate animal x) that can only be build if you have access to resource (in city range) and gives you one additional resource of that type. if you have access to a resource each farm has a chance to 'discover' the resource on that plot - if the city has no direct access to another food resource. thus animal resources would spread over time to all countries and could be very rare on the game start (maybe even one single resource?). i think this is far more realistic then the actual system and has the benefit that we can actually assume that form the renaissance age every civ will have access to certain resources. assumption makes balancing easier as you can estimate cities overall health, happiness and food better.

2) you can actually build pastures WITH a resource assuming you already have access to it (e.g. you have cow farm, pig farm improvements... think hydro will like it). bonus ofc should be much smaller then now - even produce less food then normal (that's a fact that you get less food form animal then form agriculture). the optimum should be one animal resource in each city vicinity. to do that buildings like butcheries would only give a bonus for resources in city vicinity and ONLY for a single one. e.g. a butchery gives you +3 food and +1 hammer for cow OR +4 food for a pig. if you have both then only first resource counts.

hmm... that doesn't actually fit into this thread, does it? well at least there's a domesticate animal x national wonder so it has at least something to do with subduing...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

the problem with animal and food resources is that they behave different then we are used form reality. in reality it is: one time access to a animal, always access to an animal. no matter how you got it as long as it was alive.

as for transporting horses... hmm, i don't like that. maybe another approach? if someone loses any kind of cavalry unit in a fight there is a chance to produce a horse resource in that area on a unimproved plot if -and only if- there is no other horse resource in 20 tile radius on the same land mass.

solves the strategic horse resource problem. you just need someone to import them and a little war. works for ivory, too.

as for the other animal resources: multiple approaches possible.
1) a national wonder (domesticate animal x) that can only be build if you have access to resource (in city range) and gives you one additional resource of that type. if you have access to a resource each farm has a chance to 'discover' the resource on that plot - if the city has no direct access to another food resource. thus animal resources would spread over time to all countries and could be very rare on the game start (maybe even one single resource?). i think this is far more realistic then the actual system and has the benefit that we can actually assume that form the renaissance age every civ will have access to certain resources. assumption makes balancing easier as you can estimate cities overall health, happiness and food better.

2) you can actually build pastures WITH a resource assuming you already have access to it (e.g. you have cow farm, pig farm improvements... think hydro will like it). bonus ofc should be much smaller then now - even produce less food then normal (that's a fact that you get less food form animal then form agriculture). the optimum should be one animal resource in each city vicinity. to do that buildings like butcheries would only give a bonus for resources in city vicinity and ONLY for a single one. e.g. a butchery gives you +3 food and +1 hammer for cow OR +4 food for a pig. if you have both then only first resource counts.

hmm... that doesn't actually fit into this thread, does it? well at least there's a domesticate animal x national wonder so it has at least something to do with subduing...

The main problem we have in RoM is all the changes we have made to the way resources work from vanilla.

I had some vicinity bonus buildings for each animal resource. If you had that resource in the city work radius then you could build it and get another of that resource. I stopped developing it quite a few versions of AND ago. No one has noticed. So I would say it was not fun/useful in game.

StrategyOnly is working on a mod which will allow workers to "plant" animal resources. I think Orion Veterain has one also.

I am still thinking about adding the option to allow subdued horses, elephants and deer to put their resource on an unoccupied plot. To do so will get me to learn something new

btw

(that's a fact that you get less food form animal then form agriculture)

is only true when agriculture is possible. A large part of Australia is not suitable for agriculture but fine for husbandry - sheep, cattle, camels, kangaroo et al. There is just not enough rain for crops.

 

[BlackZiggerat]

I like the thinking so far, but I am brought back to the question... how big is a tile?

 

[BlackZiggerat]

can resources be extinguished? In reality, they can be. Animals can be over-harvested... copper mines go dry... new methods must be discovered... animal populations must be rebred, even vat-bred... deeper mines dug... garbage dumps harvested...

 

[BlackZiggerat]

'planting' resources is not a bad idea... but perhaps the resource as a static tile is incorrect. Yes, i believe we've realized this. If a civ discovers a tile, there should be a point when said tile is 'absorbed' into the civilization. Techs researched to support the resource, replicate, and proliferate.

 

[BlackZiggerat]

find the wheat, plant a Farm(Wheat), gain the bonus of health to the society. Gain the benefit of the food from the farm. Then tech is researched and achieved to replicate. Like fresh water, the farms cannot simply be planted anywhere, they must be attached to the resource-farm, spreading till fertile ground runs out. Then tech is researched and achieved to proliferate. And seeds and soil are carried far distances to other places, where the wonder of Farm(Wheat) will grow and expand again. Each resource would have a tech to support it, and a tech to replicate it, and proliferate it. And once done to proliferation, the resource disappears from the board, its original spot, and simply rests in the civ's city menus. It would only disappear if the civ lost all of Farm(Wheat)'s. It would reappear on a farm tile if that farm was the last wheat farm. All living resources could work like this, and thus be completely unique. Maybe 1 wheat, in the world. 1 white rice, 1 maze, 1 wild rice, etc. And then be cultivated. The animal resources would be the same. You could even name the resource. Mustang, Clydesdale, Deer, Elk, etc... The tile would infer the health benefit, and could be traded in such a way. But if a resource is traded, it should reduce the food quantity from somewhere, and provide health to the recipient, at least in 1 of their cities, if only 1.
hmmmm....
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if we do such a thing, the farms or pastures or what-ever-they-may-be should provide a culture point to, as they are unique things that a civ is now known for...

 

[BlackZiggerat]

edit-function-limited

 

[Killtech]

The main problem we have in RoM is all the changes we have made to the way resources work from vanilla.

I had some vicinity bonus buildings for each animal resource. If you had that resource in the city work radius then you could build it and get another of that resource. I stopped developing it quite a few versions of AND ago. No one has noticed. So I would say it was not fun/useful in game.

Yes, Resource Refinement, and other content was removed from the game to produce better balance, and better overall gameplay.

i didn't really have enough time to test it so i thought i won't argue with Afforess if i can't say anything about the balance of this feature. however i think it's sad that this feature is gone now.
and hell, with so many new features in AND i hardly find the time to test them so i don't have quite the time to play with the different addons from other modders. guess others will have the same problem. and there is quite a lot of mods you can add to AND...

and what exactly is the problem with the changes to resources form vanilla civ? as for me they never were an optimal implementation. i find it still very weired that it is so important to get all possible resources to get the maximal bonus to happiness and health - in vanilla and AND. it makes conquering cities with resources you don't have to the primal political strategy of the game. but in reality the US will never start a war over some cows, will they?

this is why i think that the animal and plant resources should behave much differently then strategic resources. after all civ would never allow to have wine or coffee form america, the wheat farms form golden Kansas are impossible since wheat originates form mesopotania and what about potatoes in europe?... no, what i need to do to have this resources as an america is conquering the middle east to have coffee, wheat and cows, colonies over in france for wine access and forts at the coast of china to get some rice. and of course i will need some cities in the heart of eurasian plains to get access to horses for my cavalry as there are no mustangs in civ.

btw

is only true when agriculture is possible. A large part of Australia is not suitable for agriculture but fine for husbandry - sheep, cattle, camels, kangaroo et al. There is just not enough rain for crops.

true, but not in the sense i meant it: the amount of food agriculture produces (on grassland) will always be much higher then the amount of meat you get from the herds on the same - so optimal conditions compare.

so if the land tile is sufficiently fertile then agriculture will produce more food then pastures... though a steak produces more happiness then a simple bread which is the reason why we are willing to continue such inefficiency.

 

[Arakhor]

Black Ziggerat, please let me introduce you to the Edit button. Posting 5 times in half an hour is rather silly.

 

[BlackZiggerat]

OUCH!
yes, Dancing Hoskuld updated me on this fantastic invention a bit earlier.
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Indeed, I suspect this feature will be very valuable for me in future posts.
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no way to delete excess posts for thread compression purposes on my end is there?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A new version has been released. It fixes the probability of scouts subduing an animal and stops you getting a free hunter at start.

 

[strategyonly]

Thx so much for this, it adds a great deal and is way more fun in the beginning of the game

 

[cha dawn]

I played with this mod, and never really caught an animal.
Only once i got a deer resource. What are the chances of subduing an animal ?
I played on normal speed on a standard map.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I played with this mod, and never really caught an animal.
Only once i got a deer resource. What are the chances of subduing an animal ?
I played on normal speed on a standard map.

RoM is designed for marathon games and I usually play snail because I find marathon too fast . Both have more turns when animals are around increasing the likelihood of capturing an animal.

A recon unit (scout, explorer or hunter) has 40% chance of subduing an animal. Increasing by 5% for each woodsman (I & II) and guerilla (I & II) promotion. However if you are successful and have animal husbandry subduing a horse, elephant or deer may (40%) result in a resource instead.

 

[cha dawn]

my hunter killed about 10 animals ,and only got one deer resource,
perhaps bad luck

Another question for you laying on snail speed (on what map ?), do you play till the transhuman area or stop on an earlier part of the game

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

my hunter killed about 10 animal ,and only got e deer resource,
perhaps bad luck

Another question for you laying on snail speed (on what map ?), do you play till the trnshuman area or stops on an eurliar part of the game

I use RoM_Tectonics (60% land), I like the way mountain chains can block off parts of the landmass.

I have not played a full game in quite awhile as I have been doing testing of stuff. I have played up into the transhuman era a couple of times, but it takes days of play.

 

[Camber]

I am enjoying this immensely--the subdue animals portion of Fall from Heaven was one of my favorite parts of the game. It has a Wonder that is built--a Menagerie--if you have certain animal cages in the city. I have noted that the AI finds this task almost impossible, but it still is a feat that a human player can aspire to. Often I had to go looking for exotic animals overseas late in the game in order to complete my set.

I wonder if the fur-bearing subdued animals (i.e, panther, tiger) could be used alternately to create a Fur resource.

The feature of creating a resource on the map after Animal Husbandry has been researched is one I avoid triggering. Often I am out hunting animals in territory far from home, and would rather not make a resource in a place where a rival could use it.

Would it be possible to code a choice dialog, where you can choose to either get a subdued animal or have the resource created on the spot instead? Or, the option I would prefer, would be to just get the subdued animal, and have an action that appears after Animal Husbandry that consumes the unit and makes a resource on the plot. You could still also have the actions that create it in the city (which has its own pros and cons, so there is still an interesting choice).

I really like having a hard choice between making a resource or building a Hunting Lodge. Very hard choice, because I don't know if I'm going to be using my only Stag to make the Hunting Lodge, thus forfeiting a chance to have a Deer resource, or if getting Hunters might increase my chance of capturing another Stag. That kind of tough decision is what makes the mod interesting.

I'm finding myself hanging on to my non-domesticatable animals fairly long, because they make great early mounted units, especially those with 4 strength and 2 movement. If the Carnival building were enabled earlier, it would give us a difficult early decision (use them to fight or make the cage?), making the mod more interesting. I like your ideas for earlier buildings, like the royal clothiers from fur-bearing animals. Perhaps some RoM/AND early buildings could also be buildable by some of these, like the Wagoneer (forgive me if I'm getting the name wrong) building being buildable by a subdued Horse.

I haven't seen giant sea turtles or squid in RoM for some time, and I'm not sure if they are taken out (the last build I used had them, but I got it many months ago). Your mod might be a good candidate for bringing them back.

 

[Arkenor]

Hi.

I was giving this mod a try, along with the most recent versions of RoM and A New Dawn. It certainly spices things up in the early stages of the game! Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

I noticed that when my scouts were attacked by animals, sometimes they would not get any xp, but instead they would receive promotions without me being given the choice of what they got.

I don't see that mentioned in the notes for the mod, but I didn't notice that happening before I added Subdue Animals. I prefer to choose my promotions, and was wondering if there was a way to turn off this particular aspect of the mod.

Also, I was wondering, does the AI take advantage much of the extra options?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hi.

I was giving this mod a try, along with the most recent versions of RoM and A New Dawn. It certainly spices things up in the early stages of the game! Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

I noticed that when my scouts were attacked by animals, sometimes they would not get any xp, but instead they would receive promotions without me being given the choice of what they got.

I don't see that mentioned in the notes for the mod, but I didn't notice that happening before I added Subdue Animals. I prefer to choose my promotions, and was wondering if there was a way to turn off this particular aspect of the mod.

Also, I was wondering, does the AI take advantage much of the extra options?

The change to xp is an AND feature not part of subdue animals. If your subdued elephants can build cart paths or roads then you have an older version of the mod.

I have posted all my mods in one here.

 

[Arkenor]

The change to xp is an AND feature not part of subdue animals. If your subdued elephants can build cart paths or roads then you have an older version of the mod.

I have posted all my mods in one here.

I was using the file linked to at the beginning of this thread. Your all in one mod warns that it doesn't work well with several important bits of AND, so I'd given it a miss.

Without Subdued Animals, the promotion behaviour I described does not occur. It only seems to happen when attacked by certain of the animals added by the mod. If it's not part of your mod then I guess it was interacting badly with something in AND.