Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[BlueGenie]

I agree. Hunters are quite powerful

Really?! Not against Neanders and Barb Stone Axe until they have at least a 1/2 dozen promotions in my games.
JosEPh

The point with the Hunter Type units is to hunt animals, not to hunt people. Even Neanderthal people. Against normal troops the hunter line isn't as good as it is against animals and other unit types are better against Neanders and other human troops. A Stone Axeman with 2 promotions of Shock can easily take out a Neander if attacking it on flatland, or letting it attack you in a forest. Shouldn't really even try to use hunters, at least not the way it's set up now (which I'm perfectly fine with).

About Hunter line merging into Sniper line: There's really only one big problem for me with that. Sniper line is Hidden Nationality. Your/my hunter type units with promotions geared towards capturing animals suddenly can't capture any animals anymore, at all, no matter what, if upgraded into a Sharpshooter (or snipers down the line).
Having a "secondary line of explorers with attack capability" rather than sooner or later merging into a sniper would be the way to solve that. Or not upgrade at all. Having Ranger as the top tier and without further advancement possible is good too. Still won't have any trouble with any animals apart from Dog Units, but that I can live with. Would like to see implemented that Hunters and Trackers aren't Force Obsoleted though so one can have 15 (elite unit max) hunter types as max at any one time (5 Trackers, 5 Hunters, and 5 Rangers. That way one can gain a bit of XP with Trackers/Hunters in case of a Ranger croaking. Which can easily happen if running into an army camped somewhere.

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

An Idea: Can hunter line units have a free promo that reduces defenders withdrawal chance, and set almost all animals to have 95% withdrawal rate on defend (and normal on attack).
That way hunter type units would basically be the only ones able to hunt animals while everyone else wouldn't be able to do more than defend against them.
Troops going a-hunting ducks would scare them off way before being able to catch them...

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

The only reason i change the Ranger back to str 7 was because it
used" to come later, but now it with Falconry for some reason?

 

[BlueGenie]

Used to be Falconry and Writing but with changing the Str 3 units to come earlier, aka the secondary tech requirement removed, it seems the Rangers secondary tech requirement was removed as well. Regardless of when it comes a str of 5 would in all ways suffice against animals.
For surviving exploration when enemy troops are around a recon unit should be used instead of a hunter unit anyway.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Would like to see implemented that Hunters and Trackers aren't Force Obsoleted though so one can have 15 (elite unit max) hunter types as max at any one time (5 Trackers, 5 Hunters, and 5 Rangers. That way one can gain a bit of XP with Trackers/Hunters in case of a Ranger croaking. Which can easily happen if running into an army camped somewhere.

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

I still want some more modern hunter type units. At least so they can defend against common units of the time. I was looking at increasing their chance to subdue animals rather than kill them.

An Idea: Can hunter line units have a free promo that reduces defenders withdrawal chance, and set almost all animals to have 95% withdrawal rate on defend (and normal on attack).
That way hunter type units would basically be the only ones able to hunt animals while everyone else wouldn't be able to do more than defend against them.
Troops going a-hunting ducks would scare them off way before being able to catch them...

Cheers

I don't think this is possible as a promotion but it is possible in python. Basically if a non-hunter unit wins a combat against an animal of lesser strength instead of getting food or subduing the animal, the animal would have a chance to retreat. the only problem in doing it in python is that the attacking unit(s) would still get exp and points towards GG.

 

[AIAndy]

I don't think this is possible as a promotion but it is possible in python. Basically if a non-hunter unit wins a combat against an animal of lesser strength instead of getting food or subduing the animal, the animal would have a chance to retreat. the only problem in doing it in python is that the attacking unit(s) would still get exp and points towards GG.

As we intend to move that functionality to the DLL anyway, those limits do not apply any more.
So if you could detail the concept and write it down, then I can work from there.

 

[EldrinFal]

About Hunter line merging into Sniper line: There's really only one big problem for me with that. Sniper line is Hidden Nationality. Your/my hunter type units with promotions geared towards capturing animals suddenly can't capture any animals anymore, at all, no matter what, if upgraded into a Sharpshooter (or snipers down the line).

I believe all units have a small innate chance to tame. But I agree that there should still be a hunting type, but instead of making it just stronger, which is unnecessary to hunt animals, to give it another bonus. Such as combining with the Explorer. So I think we agree there.

Having a "secondary line of explorers with attack capability" rather than sooner or later merging into a sniper would be the way to solve that. Or not upgrade at all. Having Ranger as the top tier and without further advancement possible is good too. Still won't have any trouble with any animals apart from Dog Units, but that I can live with. Would like to see implemented that Hunters and Trackers aren't Force Obsoleted though so one can have 15 (elite unit max) hunter types as max at any one time (5 Trackers, 5 Hunters, and 5 Rangers. That way one can gain a bit of XP with Trackers/Hunters in case of a Ranger croaking. Which can easily happen if running into an army camped somewhere.

I believe all units have a small innate chance to tame. But I agree that there should still be a hunting type, but instead of making it just stronger, which is unnecessary to hunt animals, to give it another bonus. Such as combining with the Explorer. So I think we agree there.

I STILL say Rangers should be reduced to 5 in strength though. 7 is still way much still as you, with a Great General supporting them, can use 5 Rangers to take out a civilization rather easily if you go for Falconry fast, even when behind in techs. Seems the AI doesn't put much weight into Falconry, and really shouldn't IF Rangers were good against animals and not so great against troops.

Well... I had lowered it but I guess I was vetoed. At STR 7 the Ranger is pretty much the strongest unit for awhile. Even Horsemen only have 5. Bear riders and such have STR 6. Think even Axemen are 5. Anyhow, it's DH's unit, so I'm not touching it anymore

An Idea: Can hunter line units have a free promo that reduces defenders withdrawal chance, and set almost all animals to have 95% withdrawal rate on defend (and normal on attack).
That way hunter type units would basically be the only ones able to hunt animals while everyone else wouldn't be able to do more than defend against them.
Troops going a-hunting ducks would scare them off way before being able to catch them...

Cheers

I'm not sure I'd care for that on the basis that right now there are so many animals running around that I sometimes rely on normal units to kill them merely to cull the population, give me breathing room, and of course cash in on some food and hammers. If the spawning numbers are reduced, and new AI implemented so animals aren't all aggro, then an idea like that could be more feasible.

Speaking of animal hunting units, while I think the land Hunters are OP, Wood Boats feel UP against animals. Again.. that may be resolved with new AI so my Galleys and Trireme's aren't assaulted by schools of angry Tuna, Whales, etc.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well... I had lowered it but I guess I was vetoed. At STR 7 the Ranger is pretty much the strongest unit for awhile. Even Horsemen only have 5. Bear riders and such have STR 6. Think even Axemen are 5. Anyhow, it's DH's unit, so I'm not touching it anymore

I thought I had lest it as you had changed it. That was why I needed the new units. It looks like I will have to review the lot when I get back.

 

[JosEPh_II]

bluegenie wrote:
The point with the Hunter Type units is to hunt animals, not to hunt people.

I Fully understand that. BUT, you still get hit with neanders and barbs when out Hunting animals. Then you have to escort (in most cases) those animals back to you cities. That is why I disagree that Hunters are OP against animals Or other units.

JosEPh

 

[EldrinFal]

I Fully understand that. BUT, you still get hit with neanders and barbs when out Hunting animals. Then you have to escort (in most cases) those animals back to you cities. That is why I disagree that Hunters are OP against animals Or other units.

JosEPh

Hunters and Rangers have a very high innate bonus against animals. I think the Ranger is something crazy like +300% or more. And that's before any hunting promotion. Hunters are a tad less, but I think still over 200%.

The point is that they are specialized units and not supposed to be good against everything. So if you really want to be careful then you'll have to send a normal combat unit with the hunter to protect the stack from Neanderthals.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The scout has a 100% against animals but in most cases it ends up killing the animal instead of capturing it. The success rate for capture isn't anywhere near the defend rate. Same goes for Tracker/Hunter(200% vs animal for defending against the animal not capturing). I rarely make rangers and now with SO reducing their str to 5, because of the discussion here, I'll be using them even less.

So this for me begs the Question:Why should I spend my valuable build time building weak animal capturing units when I should be building wealth so I can afford the science buildings?

I'll answer my own question:Because I have to build them because I need the herd producing animals to Feed my cities and keep production growing(every hammer counts!). Or I can spiral into stagnation because the "costs" to increase science/research rate keep expansion from happening. (This is another reason why I keep saying the City Limits Option is no longer needed.)

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

I subdue at least half of the animals I'm hunting with my Rangers. As far as I know the relative strength of the hunter has no bearing on the success rate to subdue anyway BUT the two hunting promotions do and I always go for both as well as woodland I, II, and III before starting to look at other promotions. That said I also keep a few Explorers (or Axemen or Stone Axemen/depending on my tech levels) as defence with my Rangers. That helps protect them against enemies as well as protect any subdued animals.

I'd have 5 Rangers even if their base strength was 4. It's not for their base strength I have them. Could care less if it was 3 even (bonuses still make them better than Hunters), but too high (6+) is in my opinion detrimental to the hunter lines purpose; hunting animals, not military troops or capturing cities.

Cheers

 

[EldrinFal]

I subdue at least half of the animals I'm hunting with my Rangers. As far as I know the relative strength of the hunter has no bearing on the success rate to subdue anyway BUT the two hunting promotions do and I always go for both as well as woodland I, II, and III before starting to look at other promotions. That said I also keep a few Explorers (or Axemen or Stone Axemen/depending on my tech levels) as defence with my Rangers. That helps protect them against enemies as well as protect any subdued animals.

I'd have 5 Rangers even if their base strength was 4. It's not for their base strength I have them. Could care less if it was 3 even (bonuses still make them better than Hunters), but too high (6+) is in my opinion detrimental to the hunter lines purpose; hunting animals, not military troops or capturing cities.

Cheers

Exactly. I agree 100%. I'm a little more daring with my units though and send Rangers and Pack Mules out alone, as well as Explorers. I rarely have any die and I'm playing Raging Barbs so imagine double the amount of animal spawns. Tile to tile. On that note, I don't see animals stack on each other when moving, and wonder if that should change. Otherwise, they just get locked and unable to move since every surrounding tile is inhabited or has a terrain/feature they are not allowed to enter.

With a +200% or +300% versus animals, the Hunter and Ranger are far and away THE anti-animal unit. DH can correct me since he did this but I think the hunter line starts with a higher innate subdue rate and that goes up with the Hunting promotions. So if you want to capture animals, Hunter and Ranger are you best bet, bar none.

I am REALLY looking forward to AIAndy implementing additional commands for subdued animals (butcher, sacrifice, etc.)

 

[AIAndy]

I am REALLY looking forward to AIAndy implementing additional commands for subdued animals (butcher, sacrifice, etc.)

Here are the ideas for the implementation of both subdueing and the additional commands in the DLL (mind that progress will likely be slow on that now in the holiday season as I am not even at my development PC for extended periods):
Outcome types are defined which have prerequisites and a list of promotions or buildings that increase or decrease the chances.
In the unit infos kill outcomes are defined which have a type, a relative chance and gains like yield/commerce/GPP/subdued unit/generated bonus.
When that type of unit is killed, the chances of all outcomes are summed up for which the prerequisites are met. Then a random one is chosen and that outcome is then executed.

For each new command the unit info can also define a list of outcomes and if any outcome has valid prerequisites, the command is active. If you use it, the outcomes are computed similarly to the kill outcomes.

Quite some info to add to the XML but the system is flexible that way.

 

[Koshling]

Here are the ideas for the implementation of both subdueing and the additional commands in the DLL (mind that progress will likely be slow on that now in the holiday season as I am not even at my development PC for extended periods):
Outcome types are defined which have prerequisites and a list of promotions or buildings that increase or decrease the chances.
In the unit infos kill outcomes are defined which have a type, a relative chance and gains like yield/commerce/GPP/subdued unit/generated bonus.
When that type of unit is killed, the chances of all outcomes are summed up for which the prerequisites are met. Then a random one is chosen and that outcome is then executed.

For each new command the unit info can also define a list of outcomes and if any outcome has valid prerequisites, the command is active. If you use it, the outcomes are computed similarly to the kill outcomes.

Quite some info to add to the XML but the system is flexible that way.

Don't forget to update the subdued animal AI to use them also (it has it's own AI routine since V19)

 

[strategyonly]

OK the Subdued Narwhal in the attached pics cant move??

EDIT: Now whats weird is that THIS Narwhal can move?? 3rd pic

 

[EldrinFal]

OK the Subdued Narwhal in the attached pics cant move??

EDIT: Now whats weird is that THIS Narwhal can move?? 3rd pic

Subdued animals can't explore new areas of the map. So they can't approach tiles next to black areas, which I think accounts for one or two of your images. The third one he doesn't have any Move left?

 

[strategyonly]

Subdued animals can't explore new areas of the map. So they can't approach tiles next to black areas, which I think accounts for one or two of your images. The third one he doesn't have any Move left?

ahhhh ok, got it thx.

 

[EldrinFal]

@Dancing Hoskuld

How do you have it setup to make units subdue-able? I was investigating a little on my own to see about making Mermaids subdue-able, but didn't see any special XML tag or anything. Can you point me in the right direction?

 

[AIAndy]

@Dancing Hoskuld

How do you have it setup to make units subdue-able? I was investigating a little on my own to see about making Mermaids subdue-able, but didn't see any special XML tag or anything. Can you point me in the right direction?

It is all in SubdueAnimals.py at the moment. But I am currently replacing that system with DLL code and XML (although it won't be finished that soon as I am away from my computer for the next two weeks).
The new Outcome info XML I added this evening is part of the new system.

 

[EldrinFal]

It is all in SubdueAnimals.py at the moment. But I am currently replacing that system with DLL code and XML (although it won't be finished that soon as I am away from my computer for the next two weeks).
The new Outcome info XML I added this evening is part of the new system.

Ok, that explains it No worries on the time frame. Think everyone is busy or otherwise not operating under normal circumstances atm anyway.