Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Building herds is available with canine domestication.
But elephants, mammoths, deer, goats, buffalo can be build as herds way before canine domestication is available. My guess would be this is not intended.

It is completely intended.

 

[Flinx]

Seems i should play more and think less.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Seems i should play more and think less.

No always point out things you think are problems. Many times other people mean to say something but just play one more turn and forget.

In this case it is for game balance and early game fun.

 

[strategyonly]

No always point out things you think are problems. Many times other people mean to say something but just play one more turn and forget.

I completely agree with DH's statement 200%

 

[Actuarian]

I have a couple of suggestions for the subdued animals. Not being much of a modder at all, I have no idea how difficult these would be to implement.

First, this has already been suggested, but it there any chance of getting more thematic promotions for aquatic animals? That woodsman promotion sure looks funny on my subdued minkie whale, but at least that promotion gives some benefit to the whale. There are other available promotions that are totally useless to aquatic animals.

Second, why not allow some subdued aquatic animals, like whales and sharks, enter ocean squares. Since they can't explore and they can't transport troops, I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed. It seems strange when a shark can't cross one or two squares of discovered ocean to get to another already discovered coastal square (instead of having to hug the coast).

Third, I have an idea for flying birds. Why not let them fly over water so long as they end their turn on a land tile.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have a couple of suggestions for the subdued animals. Not being much of a modder at all, I have no idea how difficult these would be to implement.

First, this has already been suggested, but it there any chance of getting more thematic promotions for aquatic animals? That woodsman promotion sure looks funny on my subdued minkie whale, but at least that promotion gives some benefit to the whale. There are other available promotions that are totally useless to aquatic animals.

Second, why not allow some subdued aquatic animals, like whales and sharks, enter ocean squares. Since they can't explore and they can't transport troops, I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed. It seems strange when a shark can't cross one or two squares of discovered ocean to get to another already discovered coastal square (instead of having to hug the coast).

Third, I have an idea for flying birds. Why not let them fly over water so long as they end their turn on a land tile.

The subdued animals should not be getting any promotions any way. However there are a few I would like to add but the system does not allow them. BtS was built with sea not having the variety of land. For example land animal units don't get damage from features or terrain but sea animals do. I was going to split the sea critters into a different group, but there s no point until I can get the sea promotions.

Having subdued animals as scouting units breaks game balance. As we found out when they could enter ocean. Now they don't get to enter ocean until you have the tech to build units that can enter ocean.

I am not sure that Civ IV has the concept of must end turn somewhere. Previous Civ versions did. I too find it annoying. I know of a way to do it so that the birds can fly over sea and ocean but then we would have the same exploration problem.

 

[AIAndy]

Having subdued animals as scouting units breaks game balance. As we found out when they could enter ocean. Now they don't get to enter ocean until you have the tech to build units that can enter ocean.

Is it really a problem if subdued animals can enter the ocean plots that you can see? They can't enter unexplored terrain or explore themselves so you won't see anything that you would not see anyway.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Is it really a problem if subdued animals can enter the ocean plots that you can see? They can't enter unexplored terrain or explore themselves so you won't see anything that you would not see anyway.

I can't see the point as you can't have gotten them across an ocean away from home anyway. Unless they were forced there by another nation expanding! D'oh.

As you say since they can't expose unexplored territory it is not a problem to remove the ocean restriction. All the work to put that in. :sigh:

 

[AIAndy]

I can't see the point as you can't have gotten them across an ocean away from home anyway. Unless they were forced there by another nation expanding! D'oh.

As you say since they can't expose unexplored territory it is not a problem to remove the ocean restriction. All the work to put that in. :sigh:

I am not quite sure how to imagine a subdued whale anyway. Does it follow you around?
But if it is work to remove the ocean restrictions, leave them in. As you say there is little real use you can get from the ocean crossing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am not quite sure how to imagine a subdued whale anyway. Does it follow you around?
But if it is work to remove the ocean restrictions, leave them in. As you say there is little real use you can get from the ocean crossing.

With sea creatures it was not intended that they were the actual unit but the story of the critter. I may need to rethink the whole sea animal stuff.

SVH update: Subdued sea creatures can now enter ocean as long as they don't reveil the map.

 

[Actuarian]

With sea creatures it was not intended that they were the actual unit but the story of the critter. I may need to rethink the whole sea animal stuff.

SVH update: Subdued sea creatures can now enter ocean as long as they don't reveil the map.

Cool! I was thinking of something along the same line with flying birds, but I certainly understand if it isn't possible or worth the effort.

In more general terms, I think anyone enjoying this mod must already be willing to engage some level of suspension of disbelief. I wouldn't worry too much about having subdued sea creatures unless they affect gameplay in a way you don't like. I do personally find them to be a bit overpowered, too fast and too easy to subdue. On the other hand it would be fun (maybe not so practical) if you could come up with a naval version of some of the animal units like the giraffe archer.

I have to go now. My Minkie Whale woodsman needs to chop some wood.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

I did the following ...

- Added Goat Herd, Llama Herd, Mammoth Herd and Musk Ox Herd to the Shearing Bar Requirements.
- Added Goat Herd, Cow Herd and Buffalo Herd to the Dairy Barn Requirements.

Now I need you to do the following ...

1. Remove Wool bonus from the Goat Herd, Llama Herd and Musk Ox.

2. Change the name of "Ivory" resource to "Elephant".

3. Remove "Ivory" (now called "Elephant") resource bonus from the Mammoth Herd.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am having difficulty imagining shearing a mammoth.

Edit Ivory is defined somewhere in the BtS files. You could just make a text file with the name pedia and strategy text using BONUS_IVORY and have the text say elephants.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I am having difficulty imagining shearing a mammoth.

It was requested awhile back. the Mammoth Trainer has allowed for the Sheering Barn for quite some time now.

But you got to admit it would be fun to see people shearing mammoths. Imagine how much wool you could get from them!

Edit Ivory is defined somewhere in the BtS files. You could just make a text file with the name pedia and strategy text using BONUS_IVORY and have the text say elephants.

Ok I will go do that.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

I am thinking about adding a new resource called "Ivory" (BONUS_IVORY2). This would take the place of the ivory when used for stuff that not for elephants. Thus things like the Elephant Herd and Mammoth Herd will need to give a free BONUS_IVORY2. Just giving you a heads up. I will let you know when I have put it on the SVN.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We are not supposed to be adding new stuff this week. Otherwise I would be suggesting that we convert all the buildings that use gems to amber, jade, diamonds, rubies, emerlads and saphires and replace the gemstone bonus with the gems bonus.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok I will wait until after the freeze then. No problem.

 

[strategyonly]

Ok I will wait until after the freeze then. No problem.

If you'll can still get it in today go for it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If you'll can still get it in today go for it.

Done.

@Dancing Hoskuld

Ok please change the following ...

1. Herd - Mammoth change BONUS_IVORY to BONUS_IVORY2.

2. Herd - Elephant add BONUS_IVORY2 to it.

 

[youmakemefart]

Ok, I tried the mod...

in principle - the mod is really good - and has the potential to take AND to the next step.

I love the new ressources, the new buildings etc.

Well done!

BUT:

the animals, especcially at sea, are really really really annoying and unrealistic.
You have giant squids sinking (damaged) ships...

When did that ever happen in history???

Also - you can't let ships Auto-Explore because there is constantly some whale (realism = 0%) attacking the ship - causing it to stop and heal.

Just imagine Columbus taking weeks longer to cross the Atlantic because he was constantly attacked by squids, fish etc.

Same at land. If you ever need a great general, just put a unit somewhere on a new landmass - constant attacks from Turkeys (???) lizards etc. will give him loads of XP....

Also, I find the whole concept of animals that pass under your control really really really silly, to say the least.

Come on...