Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok, I tried the mod...

in principle - the mod is really good - and has the potential to take AND to the next step.

I love the new ressources, the new buildings etc.

Well done!

BUT:

the animals, especcially at sea, are really really really annoying and unrealistic.
You have giant squids sinking (damaged) ships...

When did that ever happen in history???

Also - you can't let ships Auto-Explore because there is constantly some whale (realism = 0%) attacking the ship - causing it to stop and heal.

Just imagine Columbus taking weeks longer to cross the Atlantic because he was constantly attacked by squids, fish etc.

Same at land. If you ever need a great general, just put a unit somewhere on a new landmass - constant attacks from Turkeys (???) lizards etc. will give him loads of XP....

Also, I find the whole concept of animals that pass under your control really really really silly, to say the least.

Come on...

Fine. This is why I made it modular. You can turn it off.

To turn off or reduce the number of animals appearing in game go to Assets/XML. Edit A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. Change the value of ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER. 0 means none, 50 means half what you get now. Adjust to your content.

To turn off the subdue aspect delete the folder Assets/DancingHoskuld/Subdue_Animals.

If you also want to turn off the food and hammer aspect you will need to also edit Config/init.xml and delete the line for subdue animals.

I did intend to have two sets of animals. The base set with just the basic BtS animals and a more varied set with the lot. However I have not gotten to it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's okay DH!

Every time we get a new influx of players they almost always voice their concerns over the same things that have been already hashed over by the regulars. They're just not up to speed yet. Nor have they been involved in the multiple discussions and decision making. They're just bringing in their old baggage on how they think the Mod should play.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Fine. This is why I made it modular. You can turn it off.

To turn off or reduce the number of animals appearing in game go to Assets/XML. Edit A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. Change the value of ANIMAL_SPAWN_MODIFIER. 0 means none, 50 means half what you get now. Adjust to your content.

To turn off the subdue aspect delete the folder Assets/DancingHoskuld/Subdue_Animals.

If you also want to turn off the food and hammer aspect you will need to also edit Config/init.xml and delete the line for subdue animals.

I did intend to have two sets of animals. The base set with just the basic BtS animals and a more varied set with the lot. However I have not gotten to it.

There are two (both valid IMO) perspectives from which one can judge design decisions and game elements:

• Do they model reality?
• Do they enhance gameplay?

I totally take your point in regard to the 'do they model reality?' question on aspects of subdued animals (animals generally in fact). However, for me at least, the second point outweighs the first here, as they add a LOT of richness and unique gameplay (the entire prehistoric era is dominated by hunting strategy really).

Right now, for me, the net balance is in favour of the subdued animal mod (by a considerable margin), though I accept it scores negatively on the realism. If you can suggest tweaks that reduce the unrealism without damaging the gameplay positives then that would be constructive and I don't think DH would in any way be against evolving it.

Here are the elements I personally find unrealistic, so would benefit from tweaks. Unless stated otherwise I can't think of tweaks that address these points, which means I am happy to live with them (my preference relative to losing their gameplay aspects). If people have suggestions please make them.

• Subdued sea creatures in general. Suggestion - perhaps they should occur as imobile pseudo-units that pop in one of your coastal cities (and then have the same build options as the current subdued animal) - that would better reflect the 'story' aspect without the weird controllable-sea-creature
• Animals killing units commonly. IMO the existance of powerful animals (i.e. wilderness risk) DOES add to gameply (even the unrealistic ones like giant squid sinking ships). However, the attacks by weak animals serves little purpose (except auto-promote as mentioned in the previous post). Suggestion - make non-predators defend-only (to the extent that is not already true)

 

[Iceciro]

[*]Animals killing units commonly. IMO the existance of powerful animals (i.e. wilderness risk) DOES add to gameply (even the unrealistic ones like giant squid sinking ships). However, the attacks by weak animals serves little purpose (except auto-promote as mentioned in the previous post). Suggestion - make non-predators defend-only (to the extent that is not already true)
[/LIST]

Having my wounded units killed by savage Ducks is hilarious. And also terrible. I don't know if it should happen or not.
Koalas can actually be pretty serious jerks without eucalyptus, so whatever.

I do know that eagles probably shouldn't be 2 ; that seems a little much, especially for one of the most common enemies. Eagles score more unit kills than anything else; I'd rather lose to Emus which are at least big angry birds, rather than a Eagle which I don't think has ever seen us as prey.

------------
I still think the things like ducks and tuna should be in, but you should actively have to hunt them, rather than them showing a sort of mad-charge instinct towards your nearest human.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Having my wounded units killed by savage Ducks is hilarious. And also terrible. I don't know if it should happen or not.
Koalas can actually be pretty serious jerks without eucalyptus, so whatever.

I do know that eagles probably shouldn't be 2 ; that seems a little much, especially for one of the most common enemies. Eagles score more unit kills than anything else; I'd rather lose to Emus which are at least big angry birds, rather than a Eagle which I don't think has ever seen us as prey.

------------
I still think the things like ducks and tuna should be in, but you should actively have to hunt them, rather than them showing a sort of mad-charge instinct towards your nearest human.

Even though I support DH's total effort here I must say I've had my "Oh Crap" moments when that Mad Mallard has taken out my Wanderer or Scout! Killer Rabbit syndrome?

Too bad a subdued Eagle cannot be "attached" to a Recon unit to enhance it's visibility range.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Too bad a subdued Eagle cannot be "attached" to a Recon unit to enhance it's visibility range.
JosEPh

Yeah, but isn't that a game mechanic rather than anything really going on in life?

 

[JosEPh_II]

From that point of view then Mad Mallards isn't "really going on in life" either.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Here are the elements I personally find unrealistic, so would benefit from tweaks. Unless stated otherwise I can't think of tweaks that address these points, which means I am happy to live with them (my preference relative to losing their gameplay aspects). If people have suggestions please make them.

• Subdued sea creatures in general. Suggestion - perhaps they should occur as imobile pseudo-units that pop in one of your coastal cities (and then have the same build options as the current subdued animal) - that would better reflect the 'story' aspect without the weird controllable-sea-creature
• Animals killing units commonly. IMO the existance of powerful animals (i.e. wilderness risk) DOES add to gameply (even the unrealistic ones like giant squid sinking ships). However, the attacks by weak animals serves little purpose (except auto-promote as mentioned in the previous post). Suggestion - make non-predators defend-only (to the extent that is not already true)

Having my wounded units killed by savage Ducks is hilarious. And also terrible. I don't know if it should happen or not.
Koalas can actually be pretty serious jerks without eucalyptus, so whatever.

I do know that eagles probably shouldn't be 2 ; that seems a little much, especially for one of the most common enemies. Eagles score more unit kills than anything else; I'd rather lose to Emus which are at least big angry birds, rather than a Eagle which I don't think has ever seen us as prey.

------------
I still think the things like ducks and tuna should be in, but you should actively have to hunt them, rather than them showing a sort of mad-charge instinct towards your nearest human.

I am already working on these based on ideas presented by others in this forum. This is why tuna and ducks don't provide exp or GG points when killed, they are "completely harmless". I have not yet figured out how to make them not attack and not run at the sight of your units so that hunting is possible.

As to sea creatures, I have come up with something like your idea Koshling, but have not thought it through fully nor had chance to implement it in anyway. It will need python so it is good I kept the old subdue animals so I can play with it while I figure out what it is that I require from AIAndy's outcomes mod.

On non predators being defensive only, perhaps you have not seen film of wildebeest attacking lions. Nor read Sir David Attenborough's account on what to do when a herd of pigs crosses your path (climb a tree very quickly), he saw them attack and eat a jaguar.

Too bad a subdued Eagle cannot be "attached" to a Recon unit to enhance it's visibility range.

JosEPh

I have been trying to figure out how to do that and get thw AI to use it. The main problem is that the is only one range for visibility for all flying units. So the hawk has the same visibility range as a late game fighter and this unbalances things to much.

 

[Koshling]

On non predators being defensive only, perhaps you have not seen film of wildebeest attacking lions. Nor read Sir David Attenborough's account on what to do when a herd of pigs crosses your path (climb a tree very quickly), he saw them attack and eat a jaguar.

'Predator' was a bad choice of term on my part. I really meant it as shorthand for 'units we dont want to pre-emptively attack player-units because it just seems dumb for them to do so'

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

'Predator' was a bad choice of term on my part. I really meant it as shorthand for 'units we dont want to pre-emptively attack player-units because it just seems dumb for them to do so'

Then there is the fact that wild animals rally only represent the rogue elements of the non-carnavours anyway otherwise we would need 20-200 times more animals.

 

[Koshling]

Then there is the fact that wild animals rally only represent the rogue elements of the non-carnavours anyway otherwise we would need 20-200 times more animals.

But...ducks!?

 

[AIAndy]

As to sea creatures, I have come up with something like your idea Koshling, but have not thought it through fully nor had chance to implement it in anyway. It will need python so it is good I kept the old subdue animals so I can play with it while I figure out what it is that I require from AIAndy's outcomes mod.

I could add a Python callback tag to the outcomes (similar to what events have) so you can play around with it better.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I just had this strange vision flash thru my head while reading this.

Here goes: The Mad Mallard sees an approaching recon or wounded unit. It quickly grabs it's neighbor the "killer" rabbit. Flying overhead and holding the rabbit it tells the Rabbit when to 'loose' its "killer pellet bombs" on the unsuspecting Recon or wounded unit. Target destroyed! The country side is safe again for baby ducks and rabbits to frolick and play!

Sorry DH, I couldn't help myself

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I just had this strange vision flash thru my head while reading this.

Here goes: The Mad Mallard sees an approaching recon or wounded unit. It quickly grabs it's neighbor the "killer" rabbit. Flying overhead and holding the rabbit it tells the Rabbit when to 'loose' its "killer pellet bombs" on the unsuspecting Recon or wounded unit. Target destroyed! The country side is safe again for baby ducks and rabbits to frolick and play!

Sorry DH, I couldn't help myself

JosEPh

I should warn you. I do have a killer rabbit and plagues of locusts. I will loose them upon the world (of C2C) if you aren't more respectful.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Did you at least chuckle over my little vision?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Did you at least chuckle over my little vision?

JosEPh

Oh yes. How else will the meek inherit the earth if thy don't gang up on the strong.

 

[Koshling]

Oh yes. How else will the meek inherit the earth if thy don't gang up on the strong.

Leveraged buyout of course!

 

[Hydromancerx]

But...ducks!?

My sister when she was little got a little to close to a mother duck with her babies and was attacked by the mother duck. She is still scared of ducks to this day. I am dead serious. No joke.

 

[strategyonly]

My sister when she was little got a little to close to a mother duck with her babies and was attacked by the mother duck. She is still scared of ducks to this day. I am dead serious. No joke.

Try going near little "Geese" once and find out what an attack of the fine feathered friends are all about, or even a "Black Bird" baby, they will swoop down and pick at your head. Infact actually any animals with little ones will cause this behavior. I know i have done each

 

[BlueGenie]

Most animals that attack humans do so in self-defence or to protect their young. I wouldn't really call that attacking, and certainly not "seek out and destroy".
Besides it's seldom a human actually dies from such an event, and even if that happened it's a single human, not a crack troop of them.

Cheers