Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Dancing Hoskuld]

All that can be done with "just" XML. Get yourself an XML editor or even one of the Notepad equavalents that does simple syntax checks.

A good one to start would probably be cheetahs as they like people well adults, children they find delicious . Make a copy of the tamed animal unit infos but only keep one animal type in it eg lion, then rename all _LION to _CHEETAH add the cheetah to the unit class file and it is done!

Of course you still need to balance with C2C and decide if we should have a new building Cheetah Trainer

 

[GT Ranma]

*rubs chin* Well, I was just thinking of it having the exact same stats as the dog.
Maybe the Wonder needed to build the new unit would give a small buff instead?

Edit: Maybe give it a free buff? So it is a weee bit better?

Edit Edit: Also, would we want it to 'replace' the Dog, or just be an extra unit, like the Bear Rider? I'm just wondering if we'd make it producible along side the dog, or consider it an upgrade for the dog (so if you have hide units with upgrades thingy on, you will only see the kitty)?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I was considering a similar the option with the Zebra. That is if you built the wonder then all your horse resources were replaced by Zebra ones and you lost access to horses. Them being an inferior beast in your nation's opinion but I could not figure out how, and there would have been far t much work involved.

Having the canine unit line replaced by a feline, or other, unit line is nowhere near as difficult. Graphics, as always, is the limiting factor. What you do is have a national training wonder of some kind that gives a free building in all your cities. That free building allows the feline training building line and excludes the canine training line. We would probably need a cat resource as well. Almost simple really.

 

[Hydromancerx]

We do have a cat resource.

 

[GT Ranma]

*nodnod* I think he might have been referring to a 'Big Cat' resource ^^

But sure, I'll looking into the files, no guarantee thou, I haven't done XML in years. (I am an electrical engineer atm)

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well there are some other resources in the download section I have requested before. Which include ...

Resource Mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=434154

- Alligator (Rename to Crocodile)
- Bear
- Boar (Maybe)
- Cobra (Rename to Snake)
- Wolf
- Lion, Lioness, Tiger or Cheetah (Rename to Big Cat)
- Turkey (Replace Poultry)

Not sure what to do with the Poultry graphic if we did since its still a nice graphic.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And I repeat - no. Resources they aren't.

 

[GT Ranma]

And I repeat - no. Resources they aren't.

Well, if we ever start putting more 'alt timeline' stuff in they might need to be...

But, since there is a 'Canine' class for units, would you want to make a 'big cat' class, or ?

An if 'Big Cat' isn't a resource, how will the computer know that you would be able to make Kitty units? One long building line that upgrades when the Canine units upgrade?

Edit:
But I agree with DH, until we have something that uses said animals, then they can't really be considered resources. (We already got Pig, so we don't really need to break it into pigs and boars) Resources like Horses, Elephants, ect are used, people use those animals for a task. The generalization we have is currently enough, unless of course you can figure out some beasts of burden we use irl that are not represented, then I'm sure (if we have a graphic) then they could be added. Or, say, you need Sharks to make Sharks with frikken Lasers on their heads. But currently it is beyond my skill to model that ; ;

 

[ls612]

Well there are some other resources in the download section I have requested before. Which include ...

Resource Mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=434154

- Alligator (Rename to Crocodile)
- Bear
- Boar (Maybe)
- Cobra (Rename to Snake)
- Wolf
- Lion, Lioness, Tiger or Cheetah (Rename to Big Cat)
- Turkey (Replace Poultry)

Not sure what to do with the Poultry graphic if we did since its still a nice graphic.

Agree with DH on this one, those are Wild Animals (IE, to be Subdued) not Resources.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Note this is just about doing one special thing - making it so that a nation can have either a canine line of buildings and units or an equivalent feline line of buildings and units not both.

1) Define a very early building available at Cultural heritage that work similar to the Sea Myth/Sea Song buildings. I suggest two Man's best Friend (Cat) and Man's best Friend (Dog).

Both require Myth of the Earth.

Man's best Friend (Cat)

also requires Myth of the Spotted Cat.
Cannot be built in city with Man's best Friend (Dog)
Gives free building Cat Culture to all cities.​

Man's best Friend (Dog)

also requires Myth of the Wolf.
Cannot be built in city with Man's best Friend (Cat)
Gives free building Dog Culture to all cities.​

Problem: It is possible that neither of these can be built so we may want to make the Dog the default at no cost.​

2) Make all dog buildings also require building Dog Culture.

3) Copy dog buildings and convert to cats. Don't forget kennels and changes to Big Cat cage.

4) Make cat units.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

One problem I see from this is that cats, be it the domestic cat or big cats in general are not that social, except for say lions. On reason wolves worked so well to become pets is the fact they were social animals already.

And while its true that one can train a big cat or even a house cat they are not nearly as versatile as a dog as a working animal. At most I could see them used for warfare or entertainment but say animal herding or other stuff dogs are good at I just don't see.

Likewise cats do have different abilities that dogs don't have. So rather than trying to make them a substitute for a dog they should be their own category.

Which means their own Feline Class, feline buildings and feline promotions. Note this would probably be best under a Feline Domestication tech or Alt-Timeline.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I tend to agree with Hydro despite the charm in the suggestion that a culture choose to befriend one or the other species primarily.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think if we are having cats as a new line of units they would have the following pros and cons ...

Pros
- Stealthy (Much like Rogues).
- Can be as powerful as a dog in combat.
- Can be used for entertainment.
- Can see well in the dark.

Cons
- Cannot fill as many roles as Dogs can (No herding, etc)

So some ideas for promotions ...

Night Vision I, II and III
Req Tech: Feline Domestication

• +1 Visibility Range

Roar
Req Unit Class: Feline
Req Tech: Feline Domestication

• +25% vs Hunters

Tree Climbing
Req Unit Class: Feline
Req Tech: Feline Domestication

• +1 Visibility Range
• +25% Jungle Defense
• +25% Forest Defense
• +25% Savanna Defense
• +25% Bamboo Defense

Plus some canine promotions ...

- Stalk Prey
- Bite I, II and III
- Rescue Dog I, II, III (Change to Rescue Animal)
- Hunting Dog I, II, III (Change to Hunting Animal)
- Racing Dog I, II, III (Change to Racing Animal)

And for the Feline unit line ...

Trained Cats (Feline Domestication) -> Warcats (Military Training) -> Guard Cats (Leadership) -> Police Cats (Criminology) -> Feline Superior (Homo Superior)

 

[teakbois]

One thing on the subject of cats, even though not related to subdued animals:

Eqyptians should get something with a cat flavor. Maybe a Pharoah's cat building that provides some culture/wealth.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Dancing Hoskuld

One problem I see from this is that cats, be it the domestic cat or big cats in general are not that social, except for say lions. On reason wolves worked so well to become pets is the fact they were social animals already.Note this would probably be best under a Feline Domestication tech or Alt-Timeline.

We are really talking alt-timelines here ones that make a big difference to your nation. Starting with the look at the moment. It is similiar to what I wanted to do with horse/zebra but never got around to. In that case if you built the Zebra Trainer great wonder then you would never be able to build any horse units only zebra units.

Not all big cats are solitary hunters, although today's house cats are probably descended from such. What if there was a suitable pack hunting cat to domesticate? That is the question that is being answered.

I think if we are having cats as a new line of units they would have the following pros and cons ...
...
Trained Cats (Feline Domestication) -> Warcats (Military Training) -> Guard Cats (Leadership) -> Police Cats (Criminology) -> Feline Superior (Homo Superior)

If you did that then we would just look at another animal to try out the idea on.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Not all big cats are solitary hunters, although today's house cats are probably descended from such. What if there was a suitable pack hunting cat to domesticate? That is the question that is being answered.

Domestic House Cats are descended from the African Wild Cat. Its true that domesticated cats are much more social than the wild version, but they are nowhere as social as wolves and in turn dogs.

There is a reason why cats are called "finicky" and "independent". However in the alt-timeline I assume we are not using the Domestic Housecat, but on of the big cats.
Ones like tigers, leopards, jaguars, cheetahs, and cougars are mostly solitary species and would probably not do too well to domesticate. However they can be trained. Lions on the other hand are social and work as a team to take down prey. they have shown to be tamed, but like all big cats can be extremely dangerous.

On a side note there have also been hybrid species like Ligers, Tigrons and other hybrids which have been trained but due to genes actually grow even larger than Lions or Tigers. But like mules are mostly sterile, however some have actually been able to breed again.

Thus a species of Domesticated Ligers might be what you would want. Where you have the huge size, social nature of lions and the swimming ability of tigers. Since it would really suck if you Warcat could not cross a river in battle.

The down side is they probably would be too big to climb trees like a leopard can.


Link to video.

 

[GT Ranma]

Hmm, where is the xml with Trained Dogs, Wardogs, ect in? I can't find it -..- -Edit: NM, found it.

I was planning on just editing the entries for the Dogs, and changing them, so that it has the same basic stats as the dogs, just with changes of course. (Since I've no idea how to do it from scratch)

Of course, I've no idea how to do the wonder, so someone else will have to help with that.
*rubs chin*
What files do I need to edit / add entries to? I'm almost sure if someone points me in the right direction I can do some of the leg work, but I'm pretty sure the building and new promotions are beyond me.
- Leave the strategy the same as the dogs?
I don't know what file these two entries are in:
<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_TRAINEDCAT</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_UNIT_WARDOG_PEDIA</Civilopedia>

Also, for right now I was just going to use default images. I was thinking of using: Trained Cats (Cheetah) -> Warcats (Panther) -> Guard Cats (???) -> Police Cats (Tiger) -> Feline Superior (Lion)(Basically, just going bigger as they get stronger)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@GT Ranma

No offense but if we are doing this I would like to plan it out since I did the dogs before.

 

[GT Ranma]

@GT Ranma

No offense but if we are doing this I would like to plan it out since I did the dogs before.

*nodnod* No problem, you know a lot more about it then I do ^^

Well, guess I'll go do some actual work then, since you've got this covered.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think big cats would be a little stronger (by about a pt margin) than an equivalent dog unit but unable to spot stealth units like a dog but unlike a dog can BE a stealth unit (that can't plunder). I also think they'd be very good with withdrawal and speed (overland movement) but should not gain any defensive bonuses (thus that tree climbing would be thus better applied as an attack benefit.)

They'd also cost a bit more than dogs to maintain thanks to the large investment in food that would be necessary to support them.

In short, they'd be the Rogue of the trained animal line. (though they wouldn't spread crime...) Perhaps they should also have the assassin's specialty of being able to target particular unit combat classes in a stack, with Canines as their primary target - useful in taking out the enemies that can normally see invisible units.

And yes, this sort of coolness thinking should extend to a Bear line as well Personally, I wouldn't mind if a set of World Wonders kept the benefits of tough to train animal companion lines like this restricted to one player. They seem to be comparable to Mammoth Riders, Deer Riders, Rhino Riders and such. It's been complained about the Bear rider line so perhaps a similar line to replace the bear 'riders' with simply a set of Trained War Bear units.