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Suggestions about new nations

Discussion in 'Civ4 - World War II 1939 Mod' started by asioasioasio, Mar 6, 2007.

  1. Bonzootoo

    Bonzootoo Chieftain

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    This is really difficult. Nice job Makke in giving all that info on Finland by the way. I am only interested in a European theater situation as I think the World Wide Mode is impossible to create in anyway that is particularly interesting to play or have any historical feel.

    So for the Europeans I try to think of it from the German perspective as to what countries helped or hindered their situation. Since for Allies the production and manpower of UK, then USSR, and later USA was so massive that other allies contributes can easily be abstracted for the purposes of game play. Please don't get mad at me if you are a fan of other allies this is purely a game play issue - in the real war every contribution certainly counted.

    So if we look at this from a Sep. 1939 start it seems the Benelux must be seperate - since it is unreasonable for Germans to attack it and get enemies all over the place as it is now. Obiously the odds are going to get wiped out quickly but they are still needed to force the Germans into a difficult but not crazy choice.

    If you take my suggestion of having commodities such as Coal I and Coal II and Steel I and Steel II, and most importantly Oil I, II, III, and IV then several other countries can be introduced that would make things for realistic.

    For example Germany could have Steel I but not Steel II and Steel II would be pocessed in USA, UK (representing off map colonial/ally contributions), USSR, and Norway and maybe Sweden. This would give Germany a reason to attack Norway similar to the actual reasons of the war along with Naval advantages. So if that is the case possibly a Norway/Denmark combo nation and a seperate Sweden.

    In terms of Oil I would give Germany and Italy Oil I and all other majors. Oil II would be in USA, UK (representing off map and or middle east), USSR, and most importantly Romania - giving Germany a strong need to ally with Romania or take the middle east for that commodity. Oil III would be in deep middle east on the map (maybe modern Saudi arabia, and/or Iraq, and/or Iran) forcing Germany to conquer a lot to get them. Oil III would also be in a couple locations in USSR giving Germany strong reason to take key areas of USSR. USA would also have Oil III. Finally Oil IV would only be for USA maybe to give special building or some other nice bonus to represent the massive production advantages they developed. This could easily start as undeveloped at the start of the scenario to represent ramp up times or require research to develop.

    My suggestion was to have these level not exclude building certain unit - i.e. if you only had oil I you could build most unit but you would need higher oil levels to build certain building such as a tank factory to represent the ability to suport such large oil burning forces. Same would go with Steel and Coal.

    So Romania strikes as key to have in this situation.

    Finland was an important ally of German and a real pain for the USSR so I would include them.

    Sweden is interesting question. For game purposes it might be good to add a new religion maybe called True Nuetral that might include Sweden, Switzerland, maybe even Portugal, and Ireland - anywhere that would cost Germany a lot diplomatically to attack - so if Germany wanted Sweden thay would suffer the penalty of having to deal with a heavily defended Switzerland as well as support from other areas such as Portugal to simulate the problems of the time of attacking Sweden. So I would suggest no seperate Sweden but this special True Nuetral nation. I appologize to all my relatives in Sweden :) What ever Sweden's status some strong defense should be in place that does not easily convert to strong offence.

    This reminds me that something like a Fort unit (like machine gun but much more powerful) should be created to similate defense in Maginot line, Switzerland, Sweden, and elsewhere. Maybe this could be done by having it be a very late tech but having the unit exist in several locals at the start of the game like Kodzi did with the Inf IV in Switzerland on the 39 Scenario.

    Hungary might be included as part of Romania (maybe Bulgaria too) simply to keep number of Nations down.

    Spain is a good on to have but must be set up in such a way that it will take some serious effeort to get into the war other than outride attack by someone else.

    Greece would be a nice Seperate because it was so difficult as would be Yugoslavia.

    Turkey also was a key neutral and could be seperate or possibly included in that True Nuetral group I suggested although this would have to be watched for play balance so that it didnot actually become more desireable for Germany to attack Sweden etc.

    These would be my suggestion for best countries to add to game play and historical feel.

    I of course want to add lots of countries and I do have a pretty powerful Core2 Duo with 2GB Ram and top notch Graphics card ( I got it as partial payment for a networking job I subcontracted with local computer company) - but since I previously had medium level machine and most folks still have such machines I would suggest trying to restrict nations to absolutly most necessary ones.
     
  2. RxP13

    RxP13 Chieftain

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    Just a suggestion by a Noob, but if you are going to put in Japan, you should make sure to give them the best Navy. The Imperial Navy was no doubt the best Navy at the beginning of the War. No doubt an advanced fleet.
     
  3. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    Bonzootoo i loved the oil I, oil II and so on- idea. There should be best Oil III(or IV) in Africa, that would give Italy and Germany reason to conquer Africa. And that would make game a lot more interesting. And yes i think Norway/Denmark combo is good idea, but i think Sweden should just belong to neutrals, since Sweden didnt have anything to do with war and they don't really have anything too intresting that Norway dosen't have. Here's pic from all the countries i think there should be and how they should be in start of the 1939 scenario (some countries are little big different than they were at the time example USSR has Estonia and ect.) :




    Overall 15: Germany,France,Poland,UK,USSR,Finland,Italy, Romania&Hungary,Norway&Denmark,USA,Japan, Creece,Turkey,Spain,Neutrals. This would be perfect number IMO.

    Edit: I forgot to add UK's, France's and Italy's territories in Africa into the map. North Ireland belongs to UK too.. I kind of rushed making the map so it has some small mistakes :p
     
  4. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    Also if it is possible i think that Neutrals must be un-playable for Human players. It would be stupid if you would play with neutral countries and they are so disconnected from each others that it wouldnt make sence.
     
  5. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    No way... I love playing neutrals in ww2 scenarios and watch the show while I build-up. Then I join the war at the opportune moment.
     
  6. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    Well, at least someone likes that :p I just dosent like the idea but that's just me :) It should stay as playable as long as anyone wants then.

    Today when i played with USA in 1939 scenario i noticed that i was wrong earlier, Italy is too strong, and Poland is too weak, this time when i played, Poland was destroyed in few rounds, omg. But i still think Germany shouldnt be changed in strenght, Poland just should be given more troops. I've now played with all civs, except Neutrals and Poland. Next i'll play with Poland :)
     
  7. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    Italy is much too strong, but Poland isn't too weak- in real life Poland have lost after the first month...
     
  8. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    Yeah but in game it's stupid if they don't stand a chance. They need to be little bit stronger in my opinion. But it still should be quite easy to conquer Poland with Nazi's but not that easy as it is in game now.
     
  9. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    Ah, you meant those neutrals... I was talking about big ones like Turkey, Spain, or Sweden. For some reason I coudn't see the map before - crappy connection I guess.

    The bunch of disconnected unplayable mini neutrals should be simulated as Barbarian cities in my opinion. If you roll them into a "neutrals" civ, when Germany blitzes Netherlands and Belgium, the other neutrals would declare war, which is unrealistic. You can also include the baltic states as neutrals too.

    And Sweden is too strong to ignore, and Norway+Denmark is not. So Sweden could be in, and Norway+Denmark can be out. I also don't see the point of discarding the baltic states.

    Bulgaria was in the war, shouldn't be neutral. I think Bulgaria should be grouped with Hungary and Romania as the "Axis satellites on Danube" or something like that.

    You also need Yugoslavia, which is huge.

    This gives 15:
    Germany, France, Poland, UK, USSR, Finland, Italy, Danube (Slovakia+Hungary+Romania+Bulgaria), Sweden, USA, Japan, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Barbarians (Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland, Baltics, Portugal).

    If 18 is ok, then Danube can be divided into Slovakia+Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria; and Norway+Denmark+Iceland can be a civ.
     
  10. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    I somehow managed to forget Bulgary was in ww2 :p

    I disagree about Norway+Denmark, i think it's good idea to have them together and as their own civ. But i agree with Danube idea(Slovakia,Hungary,Romania,Bulgaria). I don't see point with "Barbarians", atleast you can negotiate with Neutrals. Neutrals is better idea IMO. Sweden should be in Neutrals, just to keep number of civs low. Atleast i rather have Spain,Turkey or Greece instead of Sweden(thought maybe 1 more civ dosent slow too much, so include Sweden if you want :) )

    In my opinion: Germany,France,Poland,UK,USSR,Finland,Italy,
    Norway&Denmark,USA,Japan,Greece,Turkey,Spain,Neutrals(Sweden Included),Danube(good idea knigh+)


    18civs start to be too much.. atleast for my comp :D(i have **** computer, currently 1939 scenario works perfectly :) )

    Edit: Now that im starting to think, maybe there should be 2 neutral sides. And they should be split by geographical positions. Like "northern and eastern neutrals"(sweden,estonia,lithuania ect.) and "other neutrals"(Switzerland,Netherlands,Belgium,Portugal ect.) Then when you want to conquer i.e. Netherlands you dont get to war with Sweden. It would make sence :D But im still in for the idea of Not being able to play with "Neutrals", but if anyone wants to be able to play with them that should be left being possible.

    Edit2: So: Germany,France,Poland,UK,USSR,Finland,Italy,
    Norway&Denmark,USA,Japan,Greece,Turkey,Spain,Neutrals1,Neutrals2,Danube(good idea knigh+)
     
  11. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    Well, then you still have Portugal and Switzerland fighting Germany because of Netherlands, and Sweden fighting USSR because of Baltics.

    Netherlands, Belgium, and the Baltics were in WW2 from very early, so why are they even in the neutrals?

    How about this: Give control of Netherlands&Belgium to France (historically Germany took out all three of these countries in one operation anyway); Give Lithuania and Latvia to Poland; Give Estonia to Finland (This way all the baltics are controlled by countries USSR aims to invade. Estonia to Finland due to relative similarity from ethnic/linguistic angles I suppose). Then you have the rest of the neutrals (Switzerland, Portugal, Ireland, Sweden - if not separate) being composed of the small countries that were neutral in WW2.

    edit: I still say Yugoslavia - unless you intend to merge it with Greece and label it...I don't know what.
     
  12. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    It kind of brakes the idea if Estonia will be given to Finland, since USSR got Estonia but not Finland. Maybe Estonia should just be part of USSR from the start. But anyway your idea might be more logical than mine. =)

    Edit: Still Neutrals1,Neutrals2 is more logical than just one Neutrals. :p
     
  13. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    all 3 Baltics to Poland then

    The more the merrier (and slower?)
    The small neutrals aren't even worth interacting, they are there for completeness. I think it would be easier on the computers to have them as totally defensive barbarians
     
  14. LuKo

    LuKo The Royal Guard

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    If you're playing as a Nazi- weak Poland is OK. If you're playing as a Poland- you have to be a hero to not be eaten- and it's OK too...
     
  15. Bonzootoo

    Bonzootoo Chieftain

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    Makke, thanks for the comments. Although I agree that it is very unhistorical to play the neutrals since they can do all sorts of things with a human player that would not be possible reality. Since each of these little nations could not afford to risk a major city etc. But I think it is fine if a player wants to play them for the fun. Maybe a mention in the intro that playing will often lead to unlikely real world results.
     
  16. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    Maybe we should just have small neutrals(Estonia,lithuania,Switzerland ect.) as Barbarians then.

    But still what are we going to do with bigger neutrals(i.e. Sweden) are they going to be barabarians too(that would be stupid imo) or are they going to appear in the mod as their own civ?

    I think Netherlands and Belgium shouldn't be given to France. Since they are like small shield to France and i loved when i played with France that Germany had only one spot in the map where they could go to my territories without having to fight their way in (or they would have to go round throught Italy. So maybe they will be Barbarians too?

    Maybe Sweden should have their own spot in the mod afterall, they would be big neutrals like Spain,Turkey,Greece who all have their own spot.

    Yugoslavia should be their own country maybe too





    Ireland should probably just belong to UK IMO.

    So list would be:

    Germany, France, Poland, UK, USSR, Finland, Italy, Danube (Slovakia+Hungary+Romania+Bulgaria), Sweden, Norway+Denmark, USA, Japan, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Barbarians (Iceland
    (if it's in map), Switzerland, Baltics, Portugal,Belgium,Netherlands)

    Overall 16civs + barbarians




    Okey so overall we decided in this page that(?):

    -Small neutralcountries(i.e. Switzerland,Estonia,Lithuania,Latvia ect.) should appear as totally defending Barbarian states
    -Sweden should also have their own spot in the mod
    -Poland is weak enough and their strenght shouldn't be changed
    -Italy is little bit too strong
    -Danube country would be good idea(Slovakia,Hungary,Bulgary,Romania good idea by Knigh+)
    -Oil I,Oil II, Oil III, Oil IV and Steel I, Steel II and Coal I, Coal II is good idea
    -There would be 16civs in map + barbarians: Germany, France, Poland, UK, USSR, Finland, Italy, Danube (Slovakia+Hungary+Romania+Bulgaria), Sweden, Norway+Denmark, USA, Japan, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Barbarians (Iceland(if it's in map), Switzerland, Baltics, Portugal,Belgium,Netherlands)




    But however it's mod maker's choice :) Afterall they are the ones who decide what's best for the mod and do all the hard work :p

    Edit: Is Japan going to appear in 1939 scenario-map? And where? Like USA but in down left corner?
     
  17. knigh+

    knigh+ .

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    Yep, actually if you check my first post you'll see that my first list included Sweden as a separate civ.

    One detail: Iceland belongs to Denmark at the beginning of WW2. So it belongs to the Norway+Denmark group.

    I have a question (having never played this scenario, as I don't actually have a civ4 - or time for it): Isn't this a European map? what is Japan doing in the list?
     
  18. makke

    makke Chieftain

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    :D Funny you don't own even own civIV and you're helping in a mod :p Yeah it's Europe map but it has small part of northern Africa on it and USA put in left corner of map. Well asioasioasio said that Japan will be in 1.2b so i just respected that on my list, there isnt Iceland on the map currently, but if they include it then it should belong to Norway+Denamark group :) There's a pic of scenarios in main post which is in modpacks forum.
     
  19. asioasioasio

    asioasioasio Fallout Scrubber

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    Yup i would switch Japan to Benelux.

    The minus of using barbarians foe example for Switzerland is that - they are in war with everyone and they are first to be conquered - so it doesn't work well for all the neutrals (switzerland is best example). - i would keep ireland, switzerland, portugal, and maybe sweeden too as neutrals - and one country

    i very like the Danube idea.

    I would like to see this way
    Germany,France,Poland,UK,USSR,Finland,Italy,
    Norway&Denmark,USA, Yugoslawia ,Greece,Turkey,Spain,Neutr als(Sweden Included),Danube, Benelux

    Maybe merging Greece (1 city is not much for independent country in civ4) and Yugoslavia - they were attacke in quite the same time (yugoslawia was attacked by germany just after greece fighted bravely against italians)
    about Poland - they should have chance to survive when britain and france would strike on the west - phony war was one of the biggest mistake of the west allies (hitler doesn't had strong forces on the west). Also stalin wouldn't eneter poland in 17.09.1939 - so phony war and attack of the soviets bring further defence hopeless. So poland should be able to repeal attack if the france and britain would gain victories on west front
     
  20. asioasioasio

    asioasioasio Fallout Scrubber

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    @ Makke
    about Panzer IV - wait with repainting - too many uu will slow down game much - so i leave unique repainting for phase 3 (from repainted units i have just IS-2 Pl , T34/85 Pl and Curtiss P40 - it was used from the beginning - i stopped further repainting - probably i would reedit some models to get team collor)
     

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