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Suggestions and bug reports.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Ancient Europe' started by Hornakhtyotef, Jul 9, 2014.

  1. Antigenes2

    Antigenes2 Warlord

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    This wasn't the original XL map. It was changed to the current one, with all the dead areas, I assume to reduce turn times, so it's a trade-off - extra terrain = longer turn times. I think it's a better map than the old one personally. But I'd like to see this map with more of the dead areas reduced and accurately rendered/resourced, just as an alternative. What that will do to turn times I can't imagine.
     
  2. Scif

    Scif Chieftain

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    As requested :D Just finished updating the map, with increasing impassable zones of the Sahara, Arabia, (which by the way reduces the spam of wild animals), and Egypt correction.
    I would also like that time would flow by less if I understood you correctly. This changes in XML by formulas, it is calculated how many years in one move, etc., but I just dabbled with these parameters in Civ5/6, as to the adjusted proportions - alack.

    ...I hope I saved the map correctly:)
     

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  3. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    Yes, keep the grapes in the east. they shouldn't be available in England before 100 BC. (if possible).
    Egypt? Only since 3000 BC! They still imported wine from the Levant 3150 BC.

    Olives can be placed around the sea. ok. but not that much otherwise you don't cultivate them.

    The same with horses. Keep them right of the map ;)

    If your version is better than the old one, I will replace the old one with this.
     
  4. Antigenes2

    Antigenes2 Warlord

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    No, I meant that on large maps the time it takes to process everything after you press End Turn can get quite long. If you have less terrain especially land area this time is shorter, which is why that map has those impassable areas. It becomes even more of a problem when you increase the number of civs. Patch 4 seems to be a bit quicker than patch 3 though.

    As for resources, don't forget that one of the great features of PAE is the ability to spread resources how you want through your empire once they become available. Too many resources on the map dulls this feature. The horse can occur naturally quite far west. I once as the Carthaginians got the horse around 3000BC just because one happened to wander by. It happens rarely, which makes for great joy when it does. Better than having a horse resource to start, I think.

    Anyway, I am playing your map. Pie will need to look at it and decide whether the grapes in Egypt should be removed, and whether the horse is now too far west if it's to become the official map (though I could only see one extra horse resource, next to the Scyths). I couldn't see an over-abundance of olives, but I might have missed them.

    I do have a question though about the XL map - the original one - as well as this one - why is there so much swampland around the Bosphorus? While it looks like a river on the map, it's not one. I'm not an expert on the geography or terrain of the area but I don't think there are any major rivers flowing into the Bosphorus from either side of the strait, so would there be so much (or any) swamp?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  5. Scif

    Scif Chieftain

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    I did, pretty much (mostly) reduced the number of swampy areas, it seems that we have different originals of Map. I corrected only the most vivid inaccuracies and injustices that caught my eye. There is no spam of resources! Grapes and olives in Egypt only because they are close to the Phoenicians and for balance/trade (but i agree, need removed). What kind of cultivation(fkg greet feature from PAE) do you talk about?) if A.I. doesnt cultivate them and is practically not active in commerce, and rebound in diplomacy, which do not allow you to trade, until you become "brothers by blood":sad:. Actually, there is too little res to trade). Trade copper for copper or slave for graine? Therefore, I suggested adding resources, (honey, exotic and "european" fruits, poultry, hemp / flax, dyes and of course various semiprecious metals etc.). The natural spread of horses?:) Playing for Dakian, one time the horses ran to me, but long before the technology of their domestication appeared, as soon as A.I. extends the borders, animal migration stops and no spread. I advise you to play at the level - MONARCH, you will rejoice, not the appearance of horses, but their capture and successful delivery, from the habitats).
    Non-passable cells on the map, for me, just not allowing animals to be spammed, as in the Sahara, every tile is stuffed with an animal and no one else, as a result, superfluous data for processing, but no one has canceled terraine tiles, they still draw etc.
    P.S. Map steel need many fixes and I will correct as much as i can.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  6. Antigenes2

    Antigenes2 Warlord

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    Re resources: It was just a general point of not adding too many resources to the map and so giving the player more to do, rather than suggesting that you did. Though I'm guilty of this myself on the map I posted a couple of days ago - in an attempt to help the AI, because the AI cannot think strategically and so often makes the wrong choices. It does spread resources but not nearly as well as a human.

    The swamp area around the Bosphorus is the same on your map as on the original (by which I mean the one you edited, not the first XL map which isn't in patch 4), so you didn't touch this area. But my question wasn't to you so much, it was open to anyone who might know the area or have an opinion whether it should be swampland there.
     
  7. Antigenes2

    Antigenes2 Warlord

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    Flotsam (stranded goods) on islands still seems to be a problem. In this example the Numidians (shortbowman and settler) won't settle this plot either because of the flotsam in the next plot or because they were heading for the plot the flotsam is on and now they are stuck and won't move. They also won't collect the flotsam presumably because there is no way back to the capital.

    Is there a way to counter this? Maybe delete flotsam if it hasn't been collected after 3 turns or something? Maybe there is already a time limit, but I kept an eye on this group for a while (at least 10 turns) and they didn't move, and the flosam remained.

    EDIT: After a couple more turns I deleted the flotsam myself in Worldbuilder. They were then able to settle the plot (that the flotsam had been on).
     

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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  8. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    Good suggestion. I will think about it....
     
  9. artyom

    artyom Warlord

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    2 suggestions:

    1) Is it possible to have Agent specialist priority to be lowest? The problem is, lets say you take civic diarchy, alot of cities will auto-select agent specialists and they are rather useless I think.

    2) Is it possible to make commissioned mercenaries unable to destroy improvements? Its extremely annoying to constantly micromanage trying to kill them and rebuild. Essentially, especially on harder difficulties and especially where everyone hates you, a player would spend like 50% of the gaming time dealing with commissioned mercenaries.
    I know that the mod Realism has this feature, as spawned revolted slaves dont destroy improvements but rather try to attack cities (the SVN version)

    I know its probably more historically correct that mercenaries destroy the countryside, but it just gets very annoying in some games
     
  10. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    1) there is no priority. you can choose the priority with the city governor

    2) sorry, all those units are normal units. I can do it with the freedom warrior, and other units you can't build (sea peoples). But I can't see a problem with that., because AI only send you mercenaries when they don't like you. And this is in your hands, if a AI likes you or not.
     
  11. artyom

    artyom Warlord

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    how do you tell a city not to ever prioritize agent specialists without manually selecting specialists yourself?
     
  12. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    oh.. that's true... I just thought of commerce points and that stuff from plots... no, I have no clue. I just looked into the SpecialistInfo and there is no tag for priority. perhaps the civic gives a bonus to spy specialists and that's why the cities change that... So sorry, I don't know and thanks for that info, I even didn't know that. So I have to look into my cities after changing a civic!
     
  13. artyom

    artyom Warlord

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    it is a common issue with every mod I play. I think the game engine picks the specialists which provide the biggest net advantage and in many mods this is usually from spies because usually they give like +3 or +4 espionage in addition to commerce/research. The minor issue could probably be solved by giving less espionage to agents specialists.. I am just not a fan of manually picking specialists for every city all the time it grows for optimal results, but this could only be just me...
     
  14. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    hm.. that could be the point... good issue! I'll have a look to decrease the spy value and increase it with buildings or/and civics.
     
  15. Antigenes2

    Antigenes2 Warlord

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    Weird reproducible bug: I attacked a barbarian city and got the pop-up saying the city capitulates and giving the options of settle, sack or burn. I chose burn, but it didn't work. Instead, my capital city was destroyed.
     

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  16. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    Oops... :D
    I'll check that!
     
  17. Brosso B.

    Brosso B. Chieftain

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    Possible oversights:

    -Roman cavalry don't require horse techs: e.g. Equites only require Marian Reforms, but not bock saddle or horseshoes. The better cav only requires the Regulars tech. Perhaps the better cav is a promotion, I haven't finished the tech yet so haven't played with them.
    -It seems that Mounted Mercenary doesn't require horses (maybe intended for civs that haven't got hold of those yet) but is better than normal cavalry. They start with Combat 1 and 2, and don't even start with "fights on their own". Maybe these are only intended to be hireable?

    *EDIT*
    - The military ranking systems are cool.. are they supposed to be transferred on upgrade though? I think I remember the Celtic upgrades being transferred to chieftains, but upgrading a legionary to praetorian doesn't transfer the roman ranks, and the praetorian doesn't have a rank so it can't build any in the future. This is true for the cohort urbanae also.
    *EDIT2*
    Looking at the python and all the different pedia entries, it seems praetorians are more of a retirement option for legionaries, as opposed to a superior combat option.

    -I think I forgot to say earlier, but thanks for this awesome mod. It's especially impressive considering how much you were able to do with just python.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  18. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    Thx Bosso!
    - Roman cavalry: ok, I have a look.
    - Mercenaries: they are professional soldiers from another country. so no horses and Combat 1 and 2 is legit. But no "fights on his own"? ok, an oversight, I'll check that. Thanks
    - Legionary to praetorian: If you change a legionary to a praetorian -> the praetorian is out of the ranking system. your legionary has to stay a legionary and become an optio then centurio and so on.
    A praetorian is a "special force" product of veteran legionaries. The praetorians can decide -> go on fighting on a horse or stay in a special cohorte. or go into city defense with the cohort urbanae.

    to EDIT2: yes, they split away from the roman ranking system when a munifex legionary becomes veteran. but it's your decision. You don't need to split away. As an optio (rank, that gives you a new unit) you can't change to praetorian.
     
  19. Brosso B.

    Brosso B. Chieftain

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    Ok so you thought you'd got rid of me? well I've been biding my time, waiting to pounce..

    I'll try to format posts like this in three parts; Bugs, possible oversights, and comments.
    The first will be things that are definite bugs, the second category are maybe bugs, and the third are more subjective e.g. my two cents.

    Bugs:

    -The standard (concrete) arena for non-greek/roman civs starts a golden age. I don't know if this stacks because I only noticed it in the tool tip so haven't tried building multiples of them.
    -Moving monuments with supply wagons is one of those awesome little things in this mod, however it is possible to 'steal' them from cities that you don't control.
    -Banks give +25% ship building.
    - Auxiliars are gaining Roman ranks from defensive victories. I may have seen this happen once or twice for legions too.
    -A very minor issue is that Roman ranked units can only promote after winning one more combat after getting the required rank. So for example if you get an equites to rank 3, it still needs to win another combat, even defensive, for the green up arrow button to appear for promotion. This isn't a big issue but is a bit confusing.
    -Tooltip says bread factories have 3 max slaves, but there isn't actually a limit.

    Oversights(?):

    -Lime walls currently precede lime palisades with respect to their tech order. I think this might be backwards.
    -Supply wagons refill very often in vassal territory, I don't think it is realistically possible to exhaust them.
    -Why doesn't testudo formation work against skirmisher class units?
    -Close order formation (early tech for mesopotamian civs) is almost never used because it's nearly impossible for them to get units with the drill promotion.
    -Normal legions cost :hammers:100, and imperial legions cost :hammers:120, but the only improvement is +10% versus three unit classes. Both are probably too cheap (cheaper than axes/spears/swords).
    -Settle reservist tool tip still lists them as giving :food:,:culture:,:commerce: but they actually give hammers instead of culture now.
    -other siege units don't get defensive bonuses, but onagers do. Is this intended?
    -I read that you can't capture trade ships because then you could gain >3 of them, but you can get them when coastal cities flip. Probably a rare event however.
    -Berzerkers don't get Furor Germanicus! I would have thought they were the most likely!:viking::thumbsup: They are quite rare though so maybe you don't want them suiciding? Maybe remove their national unit limit then? :mwaha::deal:
    -How do you get Praetorian Guard? I tried getting a Cohors Praetoria to elite, then getting normal Praetorian to elite, then sending them both to the capital, then used worldbuilder to give me the Praetorian Guard building but even then still couldn't promote one.

    Comments:

    Cavalry
    -Why are there both armoured riders and horse armour techs? If I remember rightly the cavalry units from these techs both have the same strength. I just checked and cataphracts come first, 14:strength:, 2:move: :hammers:180, sassanid is same but :hammers:160. Heavy armoured horsemen come later and are 14:strength:, 2:move:, :hammers:220. All of them ignore terrain.
    -This might not be true for all units in these groups, but it seems that generally early unarmoured cavalry units are immune to first strike, but later armoured ones aren't. This seems counter intuitive. I edited this already but I've written down that equites aren't immune, but mounted auxillaries are, so I assume that is true for the live version.
    -Horsemen are 8:strength:, mounted auxillaries are 10:strength:, both come from horseshoes tech. When compared to both mounted mercs and mounted auxs, normal horsemen seem basically pointless.
    -Why do chariots counter cavalry? Didn't cavalry historically supplant chariots on the battlefield?
    - I think generally the later game isn't balanced all that well tbh, especially cavalry. I understand you added this late-game much more recently though, and that you aren't devoting as much time to this project anymore, which is fine.
    -this is all kind of related to the next sub-topic..

    Spearmen
    -I did a quick keyword search in a couple of threads here but didn't see why spearmen were nerfed from 8:strength: to 7:strength:. I always thought the rock-paper-scissors trinity of spears/swords/axes all being 8:strength: was a good idea in past patches. ATM this makes axes the standout because they counter swords, but aren't countered very hard by spears. This is is even worse in cities because axes get +20% siege which nullifies the 20% that spears get against them. That said I like the idea of axes getting a forest bonus because this gives each of the trinity a side specialty: swords do cities, axes do forests, spears do cav and chariots.
    -But spears don't really do cavalry because (1) they are just plain weak (2) cavalry can get wedge formation for +20% versus spears, negating their bonus anyway. Granted they do slightly better in forests, but axes do even better (versus cavalry). This is similar to using phalanx formation for +20% versus the trinity. Fare enough I thought, it's a specialised and very powerful formation, but then you can upgrade that to oblique order formation which is exactly the same but you get +40% versus spears! isn't this becoming kind of overkill? not to mention that the 6:strength: shortswordsmen from the previous Era already counter the 7:strength: spearmen because they get +50% vs spears. This only gets worse in later eras with 10:strength: longswords (+50%), 12:strength: foederati (+50%) etc. Even Nightraiders/Harii aren't that impressive because they don't get any bonuses. Why do spears get countered so much harder than the others? They even get -20% versus skirmishers!
    -Basically creating spears (even most of the special or elite ones) is a waste of hammers. They should be at least restored back to 8:strength:, and considering how hard they are countered maybe even 9:strength:! (hyperbole aside, they probably shouldn't be countered so much harder than the other combat classes). That's my rant over.

    -There are too many, and too powerful, buildings for reducing war weariness. I especially don't think that larger cities (provincial and metropolis) should automatically reduce war weary. If anything they should increase it imho. I think I calculated it out and you would have to run all the civics that increase WW to even get any WW. I edited this for myself already so it makes it a little harder to go back and confirm this but I might report back later on it.
    -Skirmishers have too many first strikes. They have 2-4 baseline, and so for aggressive leaders they have 3-5 without any experience required. If that was Sparta with Agoge, they'd be up to 3-6 without any experience. The thing with first strikes I believe is that the power rises exponentially, so once you hit some threshold they will almost always win the combat before the enemy can even strike back. I think Skirms should get the flanking and skirmisher promotions for free, but not the intrinsic 1-2 first strikes.
     
  20. pie_at

    pie_at PAE-Let's play ancient :)

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    Sry for my long delay! But I don't forget to answer.... I am just a little bit busy at the moment...
     

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