If Theology founds Orthodoxy, then Hagia Sophia and Apostolic Palce switch some roles. Hagia Sophia is buildable and trigers the Great Schism, while an other civ recieves the Apostolic Palace and catholic holy city. The builder is obligated to remain orthodox, all other civs choose. Apostolic Palace still triggers elections. It is much better.
Suggestions and Requests
- Thread starter Leoreth
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If Theology founds Orthodoxy, then Hagia Sophia and Apostolic Palce switch some roles. Hagia Sophia is buildable and trigers the Great Schism, while an other civ recieves the Apostolic Palace and catholic holy city. The builder is obligated to remain orthodox, all other civs choose. Apostolic Palace still triggers elections. It is much better.
Tigranes
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No, no. AP triggers Schism, as it should. City that builds it claims her bishop is the Vicarius Filii Dei. That city becomes Holy See, with new Shrine available -- St. Peters (largest church building in the world, yet not present in mod). Orthodox holy city stays the same. It really is that. No artificial anything. Smooth gameplay, consistency with religious mechanics, historical realism.
How is Hagia Sophia buildable in this scenario? If apostolic palace is buildable then it is a far superior to build it in your capital as Byzantium. The aim is to find a mechanic preferable by the human player representing history.
I agree with that. The order of Catholicism and orthodoxy is one thing and adjusting the byzantine wonders and gameplay is another. What I find more important now is the second. Byzantines should build Hagia Sophia and not the Apostolic Palace. Moreover, the byzantine human player shall somehow prefer to remain/convert orthodox.
Making Hagia Sophia buildable, the apostolic palace recievable, making Hagia Sophia trigering the great Schism and obligating the Hagia Sophia builder to remain/convert orthodox is one solution to this. There may be other solutions as well, but I would like to meet the following criteria:
*Hagia Sophia should be buildable by Byzantium (requiring theology and early christianity).
*The byzantine human player prefers to convert/remain orthodox.
Hey leoreth, can you make it so that newborn civs cannot lose cities in a congress for 10-20 turns after they spawn? I had this problem in my Mexico game (I can link it to the thread if you need) and I was severely crippled because a ridiculously powerful France got a core city of mine with SAM Infantry defenders and I was left with one less productive city to play with.
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for reading!
Tigranes
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What is worse: Byzantines to stay Catholic or for France to stay Orthodox? Human player is never a problem: UHVs can specifically encourage historical behaviour there is an H in UHV.
See, Hagia Sophia is just another (religious) wonder. Delete it from vanila game -- nothing will suffer. AP is fundamental part of the game, and by extension, fundamental part of this mod.
Do you know what we are really missing here? Catholicism is not a religion, like all the other religions. Catholicism is meta-civilization. Its role was absolutely unique. Even RFCE Papal States are not the best representation of Papacy. You know which Civ mechanics ever comes close to describe the role of the Pope in Middle Ages? The Senate in Civ 1. You want to start a war while running democracy - overruled by Senate, action canceled!
So here are my for now and for later proposals:
For now:
1. Early Christianity: Found Christianity as Orthodoxy, just like Catholicism now. Cities in Roman Empire, and Eastern Roman Empire gradually get Orthodoxy (Roman Roads should increase the probability of natural spread, please tie them to Christianity somehow).
2. Period of Caesaropapism: while former capital of Roman Civilization (Rome) controlled by Byzantium or Barbarians -- AP cannot be built. The moment any other (Orthodox) Christian civilization or Independents captures Rome -- it gets free AP in Rome, Rome becomes Catholic Holy city (with St. Peter's as future Shrine) --- and every single city with Orthodoxy west from Rome's "x" changes Orthodox cross on Catholic one.
2.5 If it is 1050ish and Rome still owned by Barbarians or Byzantines flip Rome to Indies which triggers AP/Catholicism event.
3. Catholic Europe: Left with no Orthodoxy AI naturally converts to Catholic, especially the founder AI (most likely France). Human player of France can stubbornly stay Orthodox with all his cities Catholic, if he likes. Any new historically Catholic civilization starts with Catholic missioner if it starts after AP trigger, or with Orthodox one if Rome never left Barbarian/Byzantine hands.
3.5 Controlling Rome now REALLY means being a candidate for the Pope.
4. Reformation: Keep the current mechanics
For later:
0. Lets brainstorm for invisible meta-civilization called Papal State. Some pop-ups that require Catholic human players to make hard choices at least. Like joining crusade or building a Cathedral in X turns, or else.
Shadow Merc
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The only reason the AP is so fundamental was because it became an early way to win diplomatic victory in the vanilla game. And it's only limited to Catholicism in DOC. in the vanilla game it was available to all religions and once built would be specific to that religion alone.
I think you're over-dramaticizing things here.
While it is true that the Catholic Church was very influential upon the development of Western Europe and Western Civilization as a whole, this does not mean that Catholicism in itself should be classified as a "meta-civilization". Catholicism is no more influential than Islam was on the whole Middle East and parts of Asia and Africa where Muslims now reside. Those two alone count for close to 3 billion people today. Both were also heavily spread by conquest and missionaries.
The Pope did have a huge deal of influence on the kings of Catholic nations (no one wanted to damn their immortal soul), this did not stop leaders from outright defying the Pope or even sacking Rome (the Holy Roman Emperors often clashed with the Pope for influence). There was even a second Pope in Avignon for a time. This is really no different than if a Muslim kingdom were to go against the Caliph (which did happen considering there were several different Caliphates throughout history).
The only real difference between Catholicism and all the other religions of the world is that it is more heavily organized.
Christianity already spreads pretty well without the need for roads. Seriously, if you as Rome found Catholicism in the current setup a good deal of your cities will automatically convert. Besides, with the amount of persecution early Christians faced under the Roman empire i don't think we need Christianity to spread uber fast.
Just saying "west of Rome" is too limited, as you have German and Viking cities to the north that need to convert as well. Also, with the nature of the Great Schism of 1054, if we wanted to be accurate the AP should just be auto built in Rome in 1050-1060, meaning everyone is just Christian until then.
Controlling Rome to be candidate has always been there: controlling the AP automatically makes you a candidate.
I think Leo already has plans for the Papal States, although he hasn't revealed much yet.
Tigranes
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What you mean -- the only? It does more than any other wonder, safe for UN.
Number of lay people are only one part of the drama. Power and organization is where the real drama starts manifest itself. 2 million employees who stay celibate because their boss told them so. Catholic Church is the largest organization in the world, which makes Pope, at least nominally, a living spiritual leader acknowledged by more people than any single leader. Loyalty to religion and royalty to one single person are not the same things. Imagine a power to crown kings, collect tithes in many countries, excommunicate entire nations, making peace among nations and rallying nations to war -- all in hands of transnational spiritual leader, who does not owe his power even to his father or his birth. Name a single leader of any country or human organization who possessed such an transnational power?
Roman roads are happening around Roman cities only -- it would be nice if we could use them for something else.
It took longer to convert Vikings and East Germans. During the early Middle Ages the papacy had not yet manifested itself as the central Catholic authority, so that regional variants of Christianity could develop (Christianization of Scandinavia).
AP can be erected in any Catholic city currently.
*Hagia Sophia should be buildable by Byzantium (requiring theology and early christianity).
*The byzantine human player prefers to convert/remain orthodox.
Hagia Sophia trigering the Great Schism and forcing its builder to convert/remain orthodox is one solution. +100% culture as a Hagia Sophia effect is a good to make human player prefer it. If apostolic palace is recievable, then it is even better, it solves the builder's problem.
*The byzantine human player prefers to convert/remain orthodox.
Hagia Sophia trigering the Great Schism and forcing its builder to convert/remain orthodox is one solution. +100% culture as a Hagia Sophia effect is a good to make human player prefer it. If apostolic palace is recievable, then it is even better, it solves the builder's problem.
Tigranes
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Hagia Sophia was Cathedral, then mosque, then museum. It was built almost exactly 500 years before the Great Schism. My suggestions take that into account. Make HS available with Theology and Orthodoxy, with effect to require just one temple of state religion per Cathedral, instead of 3, regardless of religion, for the civ that owns HS. This way in will be useful in Orthodox hands, Catholic hands, Muslim hands and even in case of secular hands.
If capture/liberation of Rome triggers the birth of Catholicism with the mechanics I have explained, Byzantium will stay Orthodox. Only cities west of Rome will be converted, with orthodox buildings becoming catholic, just like pagan temples convert now.
AP is too important to be buildable. Surely Popes thought of themselves as successors of St. Peter even before final schism, and there been many temporary schisms before 1054, but for the long time the Emperor in Constantinople controlled the situation in Rome, or at least was able to mediate the affairs. The weaker Emperor would get -- the stronger was the position of the Pope, who counterbalanced fading Byzantine influence with the one of the Franks. At Mass, on Christmas Day (25 December 800 AD), when Charlemagne knelt at the altar to pray, after he restored order in Rome, the Pope crowned him Imperator Romanorum ("Emperor of the Romans") in Saint Peter's Basilica. In so doing, the Pope was effectively nullifying the legitimacy of Empress Irene of Constantinople. Very important paradigm shift. Crystallization of Catholicism, the rise of the West, the decline of the East, are all intertwined and need to be described as major event in world's history.
No. As long as AP remains buildable the Byzantine human player will choose to build the AP and become catholic because it is far superior (free
, diplomacy with the rest of Europe, AP membership, holy city in Constantinopolis). In other words, it is unhistorical.
Tigranes
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We talk about the same thing. I suggest to accomplish what you are saying with non-buildable AP. AP like temple of Solomon placed in Rome by the game, the moment any new European civ captures Rome. This gives birth to Catholicism in Rome and triggers replacement of Orthodoxy with Catholicism West off Rome.
rigo92
Chieftain
This whole idea started when I thought it would be cool for China to have a UHV called "made in China" which would be "Be the largest exporter in the world by 2010 AD", it would be perfectly historical. But then I realized that, in game this would probably mean exporting silk/tea, minerals and maybe some movies/sports events/music, aka no clothes, cars, electronics, etc as is the case irl. Then I started thinking about the modern economy and how it could be represented in-game. The primary sector is already represented pretty well, with all the improvements to resources and the possibility for nations to trade excess raw materials/cattle/fish for cash. Then the secondary sector is already more or less represented by corporations and how countries without natural resources can still benifit from them by importing the required resources. However, the tertiary or services sector is underrepresented in my view, only having sports (wembley), music (graceland) and movies (hollywood) which are all wonder-based.
To round off at 7 services I have 4 other suggestions, there should be 7 of each (they will be resources, like the existing services) and they will be granted/removed from civs depending on certain criteria every 20 turns, also civs can have more than 1 of each depending on how much they excel at the given criteria or they could hold all 7 while they are the only ones who know the required tech.
Financial services
+2 gold per city, +2 additional gold per bank and stock exchange
Unlocks with corporation
Criteria: % of cities with banks, % of civs at peace with, % of civs with which there is an open borders deal and GDP per capita.
Real world examples: Switzerland, Iceland and others.
Transportation services:
+1 trade route per city, +1 gold per customs house, harbor, airport
Unlocks with flight
Criteria: % of workable land tiles with roads- double points for railroads, % of cities with public transportation/drydocks/airports, % of civs with which there is an open borders agreement, population.
Real world examples: Egypt (Suez canal), Panama (Panama canal), Singapore and others.
Educational services:
+1 free scientist per city, +2 beakers per university
Unlocks with Physics
Criteria: % of cities with universities, % of techs discovered, GDP per capita, % of civs with which there is an open borders agreement with.
Real world examples: (pretty much any country with a good # of foreign students) USA, UK, Germany, France, Canada, Spain and others.
Military services:
+2 xp for all military units, +1 happiness per barracks
Unlocks with fission
Criteria: total troops, # of nukes, espionage points
Real world examples: USA and Soviet Union.
Justification: financial services gives an economic boost to small countries with well-developed financial sectors, transportation services gives a boost to countries with great infrastructure and trade opportunities, educational services gives a boost to countries with superior literacy rate and scientific achievement, who could realistically take in foreign students. Finally, military services is a way to represent cold-war era indirect foreign military intervention.
I hope my suggestion is useful for future updates of DOC.
To round off at 7 services I have 4 other suggestions, there should be 7 of each (they will be resources, like the existing services) and they will be granted/removed from civs depending on certain criteria every 20 turns, also civs can have more than 1 of each depending on how much they excel at the given criteria or they could hold all 7 while they are the only ones who know the required tech.
Financial services
+2 gold per city, +2 additional gold per bank and stock exchange
Unlocks with corporation
Criteria: % of cities with banks, % of civs at peace with, % of civs with which there is an open borders deal and GDP per capita.
Real world examples: Switzerland, Iceland and others.
Transportation services:
+1 trade route per city, +1 gold per customs house, harbor, airport
Unlocks with flight
Criteria: % of workable land tiles with roads- double points for railroads, % of cities with public transportation/drydocks/airports, % of civs with which there is an open borders agreement, population.
Real world examples: Egypt (Suez canal), Panama (Panama canal), Singapore and others.
Educational services:
+1 free scientist per city, +2 beakers per university
Unlocks with Physics
Criteria: % of cities with universities, % of techs discovered, GDP per capita, % of civs with which there is an open borders agreement with.
Real world examples: (pretty much any country with a good # of foreign students) USA, UK, Germany, France, Canada, Spain and others.
Military services:
+2 xp for all military units, +1 happiness per barracks
Unlocks with fission
Criteria: total troops, # of nukes, espionage points
Real world examples: USA and Soviet Union.
Justification: financial services gives an economic boost to small countries with well-developed financial sectors, transportation services gives a boost to countries with great infrastructure and trade opportunities, educational services gives a boost to countries with superior literacy rate and scientific achievement, who could realistically take in foreign students. Finally, military services is a way to represent cold-war era indirect foreign military intervention.
I hope my suggestion is useful for future updates of DOC.
I think Civilisation isn't based on real economics. The major funding is... research (over 50%), espionage and culture, when real countries fund less than 10% on research.
IMO it is more complicated. Primary sector is farms, pastures, mines and lumbermils. Secondary sector is workshops, all buildings that produce hammers (including catholic buildings
), electricity, health and granaries. Anything else, like cottages, banks, theatres, markets is tertiary sector. Science buildings can be considered quaternary.
Implementing some "real" macroeconomics will change a lot if it is doable.
Hammers will be the primary sector. Secondary sector consumes hammers and produce wealth. Tertiary sector will consume wealth and produce anything else (hapiness, health, culture, science, espionage).
Food is a special type of hammers, that it is treated differently due to its importance.
Even further, kensyan economics can be implemented. Goods market, job market and capital market. Imports, exports, taxes (tax slider), public expenses. Using kensyan equations to simulate macroeconomics (and economic crises).
Competition can be added to. Companies will immigrate to countries that have the best conditions (indcluding tax rate).
Even further add interest.
IMO it is more complicated. Primary sector is farms, pastures, mines and lumbermils. Secondary sector is workshops, all buildings that produce hammers (including catholic buildings
), electricity, health and granaries. Anything else, like cottages, banks, theatres, markets is tertiary sector. Science buildings can be considered quaternary.Implementing some "real" macroeconomics will change a lot if it is doable.
Hammers will be the primary sector. Secondary sector consumes hammers and produce wealth. Tertiary sector will consume wealth and produce anything else (hapiness, health, culture, science, espionage).
Food is a special type of hammers, that it is treated differently due to its importance.
Even further, kensyan economics can be implemented. Goods market, job market and capital market. Imports, exports, taxes (tax slider), public expenses. Using kensyan equations to simulate macroeconomics (and economic crises).
Competition can be added to. Companies will immigrate to countries that have the best conditions (indcluding tax rate).
Even further add interest.
Shadow Merc
Warlord
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Ok, there's a major misconception here. I think you're blurring the line between how the game models something and things occurred in reality.
Excommunication simply means that the person in question can't receive holy communion or take an active part in Mass, but they are still expected to attend and to perform other religious duties expected of them (fasting, tithes, etc).
Also, the Pope did not excommunicate entire nations of people. Rather, they excommunicated individuals, specifically Kings who defied papal authority or committed some other sin that merited them for excommunication. Just check out this list and see how many major figures in Catholic Europe were penalized, a few being some of our very own leader heads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church
I don't know how the Excommunication option in the AP currently works, but if it permanently removes a member from voting then that is inaccurate. The point of excommunicating a person is to incite them to change their behavior so that they can return to full communion with the Church and receive the sacraments again.
So I propose, if it's not this way already, that a successful excommunication vote simply bar the offender from voting in 1-2 AP elections, to represent that leader of that nation would eventually be forgiven and welcomed back (as the list shows, some rulers were multiple offenders and were pardoned almost every time).
There's also a huge difference between the power of the Pope on paper and the power in practice.
While the Pope had a huge influence on all of Europe, he was still reliant on the other nations deciding not to march in to Rome and oppose him, excommunication and Swiss mercenaries being his main defense. He was influential, but he didn't have total control over every aspect of life in Europe. If he did, then things like the Hundred Years War between France & England and the Reformation would never have happened. He never even unified Italy, which was divided for the whole middle ages and beyond, and there were rivalries between Rome and the city states for centuries. There's a reason the Pope isn't as powerful today as he was in the Middle ages, but even that's stretching it.
As for the Hagia Sophia, the AP, and switching Orthodoxy & Catholicsm, here's my take:
-Orthodoxy can spawn first, in Jerusalem/city of whichever civ gets Theology first.
-Hagia Sophia a buildable Orthodox wonder, it should halve the amount of temples needed for a cathedral rather than only needing one temple. This effect can benefit the owner regardless of religion.
-AP either buildable by any Orthodox civ or spawns automatically in Rome at some point (probably around 1050). If the Papal States are added, then AP simply spawns with their birth in Rome.
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