Suggestions and Requests

I'd like to make a suggestion regarding the end-game as it currently stands (roughly 1950 onward) which I feel lacks the dynamism of previous eras. Before I type out a long and well-thought through suggestion though, I wanted to make sure that this mod is open to modern/future looking period development. Is a more accurate reflections of Cold War Nuclear Diplomacy, an overhaul of the effects of global warming, and expansion of civics beyond the current end civics etc. of interest to the community?
 
The problem with focusing too much attention on the modern era is that most games don't get to it.

I think the lack of dynamism is mostly a consequence of the game being close to its end. I'm not sure how to address this problem thoroughly without extending the game and delaying the problem, but I'm interested in hearing your suggestions.

The more mechanical your proposals get the less likely I am to implement them though. As for civics, I thought we already had a pretty thorough representation of modern government here.

But I always like to discuss and think about this topic so please expand if you like.

(By the way, this might be of interest here.)
 
Now that I seem back into playing Civ4 mods, I decided to come up with this list to help you out iron out some errors along with some suggestions:

1) Horses were not introduced/used in India (South Asia in general), until the Ghorid/Mameluke dynasties introduced them into the continent in the early 13th century. Elephants were predominantly used before then.

2) You should add a pre-Mongol central Asian civ, I highly recommend the Yuezhi/Kushan. They were critical to the spread of Buddhism and contact between Gangetic civilizations and Northern China. They would also populate Central Asia with some cities, to make it less barren (post-300BC Central Asia became the main highway of inner-Asian trade). Frankly speaking if you have Tibet, I have no idea why you don't have a pre-Mongol central Asian civ. They could later become the Uzbeks in a later spawn, to threaten Iran.

3) China and India did not connect to each other through the Himalayas, there is no known passage way through the Assam region into China, until the modern era. Instead Central Asia was used as a passage way (read above suggestion).

4) Get rid of Shanghai as a potential city for China. Replace it with Nanjing or Suzhou. Shanghai, like "Tokyo", would not become important until the 20th century, before then it was a sleepy fishing village on the coast (no one built cities on the coast for good reason). Suzhou and Nanjing were far, far more important cities. Feel free to have them renamed to Shanghai later in the game, like Edo -> Tokyo, but frankly I don't think you need to, Shanghai only prospered as a European Treaty Port.

5) Bug: Persia declares war on India when they spawn, and then immediately makes peace.

6) India first name should be Mauryans, and then Medieval name Guptas.

7) Cotton should only appear in Iran with the arrival of Islam. Cotton was not grown in any significant quantities there before then. In fact the growth of Islam in Iran, is linked to the growth of Cotton in Iran (see sources). Generally speaking, the Iranian plateau had no major cities before the arrival of Islam, the Persian administration was always based in Iraq, never in Iran. It is only with the arrival of Islam that Iran became a major trade and commercial hub, directly linked as well with the growth of summer crops (such as cotton). All of this before the mini ice age in the 1000sAD, which sent Iran into decline.

8) Stop Babylonians from becoming Jewish.

9) Ideally (if possible) Babylonians should be like the Harappans, start early, die early. Then respawned as (unplayable) Assyrians.

10) Where are the Eastern and Western Ghats? Southern India (the extreme south) needs to be more mountainous. There is a very good reason that Southern India maintained naval Empires and its independence for so long, and its not because they ate chili pepper ;)

11) Consider having Islam spread faster in the Cordoban civilization OR have them start with more missionaries. I'm seeing Catholic Cordoba (due to cities in North Africa) one too many times.

12) I truly understand the decision to make Camel Archers the UU of the Arabs, it is a very standard cliche, and for sure many Bedouins fought on camels. However by 300BC, Arabs were quickly becoming very rich (due to multiple reasons I won't get into here), to the point that they were building large well decorated cities (see Petra or Palmyra). Camels remained important (in fact they were critical), but in warfare it was the horse that dominated, even after the invention of the North Arabian Camel Saddle. Horses could now be bought and fought in battles, even if the Arabs took camels to the battlefield. I would strongly suggest you replace Camel Archers with a horse warrior. IMO I would replace them with Ghulam or Mameluke as heavy infantry. Make Knights keep a camel portrait as unique art. We can talk more about this if you want more details.

As for the bow they come with... have you ever tried to shoot a bow from a camel? Doesn't work... try lance instead (check SoI).

13) Arabs should be Tribalism NOT Slavery civic. Yes the Arabs practiced slavery, but NOT the slavery depicted in the game. Agricultural or labour slavery did not exist in any meaningful way except briefly in the Abbasid period, until that resulted in a short lived African servile kingdom in Southern Iraq.... ya.... that practice didn't last long. Instead they were kept as domestic slavery and as warrior elite, which is not depicted in the game. If anything the Arabs should be Agrarianism (when they get it).

14) I really like the idea of Buddhism growing out of Hinduism. Please consider the same for Daoism, or consider scrapping it all together. Its a "philosophy" which affected parts of China (not even as important as Hinduism -> South/South-East Asia), and even then compared to other religions you have added, I don't see its value. If you do keep it, have it as an outgrowth of Confucianism. Perhaps once you build one Confucian temple. In many ways Daoism is a rejection of Confucian thought, and it would be silly if it was found somewhere else (as happens sometimes in the game).

15) Considering that Venice gets conquered EVERY single game by either the Germans or French, lets just replace it with Milan. I understand that Venice was an important city-state, but frankly speaking this game can't do it justice (which is fine), instead let's just have a city which was actually contested by the HRE/French, not to mention its own independence (Italy civ). No point having a German Vendig every game, it just looks bad. Alternatively if you want to go crazy, add a Civ5 type no-settler Venice. Wouldn't even have to be playable!

16) Consider if possible separating Military access from having trade. Its awesome that the French/Germans/Poles trade with teh Ottoman Empire, but they don't need to give them military access to conquer Scandinavia. I can't imagine this would be that difficult to do either (please correct me if I'm wrong!)

17) Since the Spanish control Toledo (Madrid) at start, consider having them be spawned instead in 1085, when they actually seized the city. Before then they were minor regional players anyway, there is no real reason to have them as early as they are. Plus in 1085 they can be buffed a bit to make up for the later start.

18) Consider having Madrid only be named as such by the Renaissance. Before it should be Toledo. A la Edo -> Tokyo.

19) In my opinion: Ditch the Italians (until the mid-19th century), and add in unplayable, no-settler, non-expansionist Papacy. Have it be modelled off of RFC Europe Papacy. I'm not expecting this anytime soon, but as a long-term project this could be AWESOME to interact with.

20) Why does Spain start with Organized Religion and not Fanaticism like the Arabs apparently do? While it was the former who organized the wholesale removal of two religious groups (hundreds of thousands of people) and it was the latter who accepted religious minorities (INCLUDING Zoroastrianism) as a matter of law. If anything it should be the other way around. In fact I can't think of any civilizations that should have "Fanaticism" as a basis of their religious "civic". Can you?

21) Cordoban Horse archers make me laugh... please consider replacing horse archers with something else. Historically very few peoples actually used them. Make them a unique barb/Seljuk unit. No need for any other civ to use them. Make Horse Archers light cavalry or something.

22) Marseille is only Jewish? Why does it not spawn with Catholicism?

23) Constantinople should be the head of Orthodoxy. With the exception of the post-Ottoman era, the entire history of Orthodoxy has been dominated by the Patriarchate in Constantinople. In the 600AD start it is in Jerusalem for some reason... but Catholicism is not??

24) Does Orthodoxy spread to Russia? If not, consider having it do so by script, or have them start with Orthodoxy, and push up the start date on Russia. No point in showing pagan Russia starting off in Moscow instead of Kiev.

25) Beijing shouldn't be called "Beijing" until the modern era (a la Edo -> Tokyo). In the 600AD start call it Yan.

Note: Love all the QoL features, really great work on that (amongst many other things). Anyway this is my first 25 points, I'll work on the next 25.

Sources: There are quite a few sources I drew upon, and if you want a source for any specific one, just let me know. Here are the major ones though:

1) New Cambridge History of Islam
2) Dr. Richard Bulliet History of Iran to the Safavids (iTunesU)
3) Dr. Richard Bulliet World History (iTunesU/Youtube).
4) Imperial China 900-1800, F.W. Motte
5) The Camel and the Wheel, Richard Bulliet
6) The Making of Europe 900-1300, Robert Bartlett <-- As a German/European a must read. Key book in contemporary Medieval studies.
 
Moderator Action: Here is a better place for that kind of discussion.
 
Moderator Action: Here is a better place for that kind of discussion.

Ah, fair enough, I'll move my second list here as well (WiP):

1) China 600AD start should be Agrarianism NOT slavery. I get the trope about slavery and China, but it simply was not used in great quantities. Before you say the Great Wall was build by slaves... it was built by corvee labour, there is a significant difference. Feudalism is NOT slavery, right? Why does Japan even start with slavery? What is strange is that the Qing start with Agrarianism in 1700AD start... what changed?

2) Consider adding a North Chinese civilization to represent the Liao, Jurchen (Jin), Manchu (Qing), this would add a northern limit to the Koreans and Chinese, and would fill out Inner Asia a bit more. There is no reason why China should be a massive blob, if India is not (thanks to the Tamils being added). I have a lot of ideas for this, so if interested let me know.

3) Is it possible to give different civs different civics? I have no idea if this is possible, but the reward would be tremendous. You could cater civics to different "civilization" groups, and make them more specialized and flavourful.

4) Give the Qing (1700AD start) another city in Manchuria. Whilst Shenyang is important, they dominated the entirety of Inner Asia (from the Pamirs to the Pacific), this should at least be shown by adding one more city to the region.

5) San'aa should be independent in 1700AD start. After the Portuguese threat to Indian Ocean trade ended, the Ottomans gradually withdrew from Yemen, as the cost of maintaining it (ie. crushing constant Houthi rebellions) in the previous century.

6) Add some green to the Tarim Basin. Yes the Takla Makan is the most barren desert, but the region around it is not. In fact its given rise to some important Silk Road cities. Plains would do fine.

7) Why is Ankara in the game? It was a minor city throughout the game (effectively till today...). Replace it with Konya in the 1700AD start.

8) Whilst I do like that the Phoenicians are in the game... what is the point? Why not just start off Carthage at Carthage. Why do I have to declare war on Carthage to get to Sur (Tyre)? Just seems a bit strange, when you could just have Tyre be a strong independent city-state.

9) Considering the critical importance of camels to Asian and African history, not having it as a resource, is like not having cattle. I cannot stress enough the importance of Camels. Now I understand we already have horses, but horses were not used for agriculture or transportation to the same extent that Camels (Bukht in particular) or oxen were. Camels are also far superior than horses in almost everyway... except warfare. Plus you can add a cool Camel spread feature starting in 100BC, wouldn't that be awesome :) :) :)

10) Why doesn't Egypt have a proper spawn back like Iran does? Fatimid/Ayyubid/Mameluke Egypt would make a perfect "come back" civ. In fact its strange that "Saladin" (Should be named Salah ad-Din), is the faction leader for "Arabia". Arabia should stop existing after the end of the Abbasids in Baghdad, circa 1258. Salah ad-Din would be the perfect respawn leader for the Egyptians. Again, I could write about this for quite some time, so if you want more detailed ideas, let me know.

11) Why do the Mongols start with Bombards? Shouldn't they start with Trebuchets, weapons which they actually used in sieges, not canon. Just make them start with slightly more trebuchet than they do now with canons.

12) Again... Why do the Mongols start with Slavery, when their obvious go-to would be Tribalism. I understand that there were slaves in the Mongol Empire, but they are not the Ancient Greek/Roman type slave economies.

13) Why does Shenyang become Mukden when the Mongols flip the city? Like I'm seriously asking why, I don't understand why they called it "Mukden".

14) Why do the Mongols start off as the "Chagatai Khanate", seems rather anachronistic, especially as you are building the very Mongol Empire, that the Chagatai would later peal themselves away from.
 
1) Ratha
2) No new civs at the moment until the code is rewritten to allow it, but a Central Asian civ is the first to be implemented as soon as that is the case. The Tibet comparison doesn't really apply because it's not a problem to make Tibet work as a civ.
3) That's the case with the current map.
4) Inertia rule. No renames if it's not the same city.
6) Maurya = Buddhism, Gupta = Hinduism. Medieval is too late for the Guptas.
10) Mountains are a waste of space. The point of the Indian map changes was to provide more space.
11) In the 3000 BC scenario that depends on where Catholicism is founded. For example a Catholic holy city in Africa makes Catholic Moors plausible.
12) I didn't make that decision, Camel Archers are the BtS UU.
14) Not really.
15) The 3000 BC scenario usually has Milan. Civ5 type Venice as unplayable civ is pretty inane.
16) What's the point.
17) Toledo and Madrid are not the same city.
18) What's the point.
23) The capital of the most powerful Orthodox civ usually is Constantinople, so I don't see your point.
 
2) See above, although I don't think Khitan and Jurchen/Manchu should be the same civ. The latter two might make sense but there is still a lot of discontinuity to bridge. Besides that, barring internal disunity, China pretty much was a massive blob for most of its history, the comparison to India really doesn't apply.
3) I disagree.
5) Good point I think.
6) Should be fine with the oases added.
8) What's the point of an independent city state.
9) It would I guess.
 
3) Is it possible to give different civs different civics? I have no idea if this is possible, but the reward would be tremendous. You could cater civics to different "civilization" groups, and make them more specialized and flavourful.

Well, theoretically we could give each civ a unique civic that replaces a regular one, similar to how unique units and buildings work. What do you have in mind?
 

How is that proof that horses were a large part of Indian society or warfare? Did the Indo-Aryans use horses? Most likely. Did the Vedic society that was built in the Gangetic plains continue to use horses? No. This is quite plain and simple. Besides, with the exception of archery and transportation, it is curious what chariots would have been used for to begin with. If you still don't believe me on horses becoming a mainstay in North Indian warfare with the coming of the Delhi Sultanate, I'll provide you a source. But I think it should be pretty obvious that horses disappeared as the Indo-Aryans integrated into India.

2) No new civs at the moment until the code is rewritten to allow it, but a Central Asian civ is the first to be implemented as soon as that is the case. The Tibet comparison doesn't really apply because it's not a problem to make Tibet work as a civ.

That's fine, and I'm glad to hear that it will be first on the list. As I said, the Kushans would make a great Civ. Why is Tibet easier than a Central Asian civ?


3) That's the case with the current map.

?? I was able to get to India with my scout. Not to mention Indian workers building a road to Chang'an in the 3000AD start. When I mean no contact, I really mean it. There should be no way before the modern era to go through Arunachal Pradesh/Assam. THey should only have contact through central asia.

4) Inertia rule. No renames if it's not the same city.

That's fine, don't change the name then, but remove Shanghai. It only makes sense from 1900 onward. For the vast majority of Chinese history it makes no sense. Replace it with Suzhou.

6) Maurya = Buddhism, Gupta = Hinduism. Medieval is too late for the Guptas.

Cool. Did not know this. I only said Medieval as a barrier point. Guptas are "Late Classical", so they are in that inbetween point.

10) Mountains are a waste of space. The point of the Indian map changes was to provide more space.

I agree, hills should do fine. But actually show those hills on the coast.

11) In the 3000 BC scenario that depends on where Catholicism is founded. For example a Catholic holy city in Africa makes Catholic Moors plausible.

This was 600AD start, and there was no holy city in North Africa, this was just the Cordobans flipping because North Africa was all Catholic.

12) I didn't make that decision, Camel Archers are the BtS UU.

I'm not blaming you, lol. I know that are BtS UU. But you can easily change it, especially with SoI having so many rich pickings.

14) Not really.

I don't understand what you mean? What do you not agree with? Currently its silly that Daoism can come out of another civilization, when it is so tied to 100 Schools of Thought period of China's Warring States period. Legalism, Confucianism and Daoism were all competing schools of thought. Having Buddhism as a direct link for Hinduism, means that Daoism being a link off of Confucianism makes just as much sense.

15) The 3000 BC scenario usually has Milan. Civ5 type Venice as unplayable civ is pretty inane.

I'm again talking about 600AD. Why is Venice a city-state in 600AD? At least have Aquelia if you really want a city there, otherwise Milan makes more sense.

16) What's the point.

I said what the point is. So that you can trade, without having a potential enemy use your borders to expand. Doesn't it make sense? Its in the Sengoku mod if you need the code. This way you can trade with civs, without having to give up territorial access. Makes diplomacy a bit more interesting.

17) Toledo and Madrid are not the same city.

Not sure if you are mixing up points here... but I never said they were the same city. Not sure what you are disagreeing here. The later start date would give more time for the Cordobans to flourish, and it just makes plain historical sense. Why do the Spanish start so early, when they don't need to. This seems to be a carry over from RFC vanilla.

18) What's the point.

Obviously they are not, but the rise of one, led to the diminishing of the other. I understand now that you have this rule, but again... the change to Madrid, meant that Toledo was no longer an important city, and declined thereafter. Seems strange having Madrid in the Dark Ages, and its an easy change.


23) The capital of the most powerful Orthodox civ usually is Constantinople, so I don't see your point.

Again I'm not sure if you are mixing up points here (or maybe I am... :crazyeye:), but I'm saying that Jerusalem should not be the holy city for Orthodoxy, Constantinople should be.

Also you seem to have only replied to some points here. Can I expect to get answers for the others?
 
2) See above, although I don't think Khitan and Jurchen/Manchu should be the same civ. The latter two might make sense but there is still a lot of discontinuity to bridge. Besides that, barring internal disunity, China pretty much was a massive blob for most of its history, the comparison to India really doesn't apply.

Considering that the Khitan are Mongol/Manchu, I don't see a problem with this. Especially since so much of Abaoji's reforms in creating the Liao Empire were adopted by later Eastern Steppe peoples. But frankly it doesn't make much of a difference.

You are right, China has historically been far more united than South Asia, but China has always had a divide between North (Yellow river and North) and South (Yangtzi and South) China. Most of the time for sure they should be connected. But just like in the 600AD start, there should be no problem with conquering Northern/Southern China, to unite the country. That being said, I'm just calling for a Khitan-Liao/Jurchen-Jin/'Manchu'-Qing type civilization to challenge the control of Northern China.

3) I disagree.

What do you disagree with in particular? I can't see why you would be against more flavour. I've already listed quite a few problems with your civic choices, all of which could make a lot more sense if there were a few different civic types for different civilizational clusters.

6) Should be fine with the oases added.

If a Central Asian and Inner Asian civ is eventually added, Central Asia should get a due-over, with camels ;)

But realistically speaking, both regions could use a bit more greenery in some areas.

8) What's the point of an independent city state.

The point as I said, was that Carthage having Tyre makes no sense. But more than that, what is the point of having the Phoenicians to begin with when your soul purpose is to replicate the Carthaginians. Just seems a bit off.

9) It would I guess.

So you'll add camels? :)

Also I updated my second suggestions post FYI. :) (I added them below):

Spoiler :
10) Why doesn't Egypt have a proper spawn back like Iran does? Fatimid/Ayyubid/Mameluke Egypt would make a perfect "come back" civ. In fact its strange that "Saladin" (Should be named Salah ad-Din), is the faction leader for "Arabia". Arabia should stop existing after the end of the Abbasids in Baghdad, circa 1258. Salah ad-Din would be the perfect respawn leader for the Egyptians. Again, I could write about this for quite some time, so if you want more detailed ideas, let me know.

11) Why do the Mongols start with Bombards? Shouldn't they start with Trebuchets, weapons which they actually used in sieges, not canon. Just make them start with slightly more trebuchet than they do now with canons.

12) Again... Why do the Mongols start with Slavery, when their obvious go-to would be Tribalism. I understand that there were slaves in the Mongol Empire, but they are not the Ancient Greek/Roman type slave economies.

13) Why does Shenyang become Mukden when the Mongols flip the city? Like I'm seriously asking why, I don't understand why they called it "Mukden".

14) Why do the Mongols start off as the "Chagatai Khanate", seems rather anachronistic, especially as you are building the very Mongol Empire, that the Chagatai would later peal themselves away from.
 
Well, theoretically we could give each civ a unique civic that replaces a regular one, similar to how unique units and buildings work. What do you have in mind?

Well this would require quite a bit of work, but the pay-off would be huge. You could have:

Cluster 1: Japan, Korea, Mongolia, China

Cluster 2: Iran, Arabs, Egyptians, Turks, Cordobans

Cluster 3: Europeans, late North Americans and late Latin Americans

Cluster 4: New World Civs

And you would have civics that align with them. You could cut down on how many civics there are in each branch, but at the end of the day you could have a lot of special features to each civic, which would deepen gameplay.

Just speaking out of my head now, imagine an Empire civ, for China (and later Japan and Korea), that gives extra stability). Or a Exploration civic, which allows settlers to be produced faster for the "Europeans". I mean the opportunities here are endless. If you want I could come up with a mock list of civics for one group. Ideally though, I'd like to know if this would be possible to begin with.
 
Well this would require quite a bit of work, but the pay-off would be huge. You could have:

Cluster 1: Japan, Korea, Mongolia, China

Cluster 2: Iran, Arabs, Egyptians, Turks, Cordobans

Cluster 3: Europeans, late North Americans and late Latin Americans

Cluster 4: New World Civs

And you would have civics that align with them. You could cut down on how many civics there are in each branch, but at the end of the day you could have a lot of special features to each civic, which would deepen gameplay.

Just speaking out of my head now, imagine an Empire civ, for China (and later Japan and Korea), that gives extra stability). Or a Exploration civic, which allows settlers to be produced faster for the "Europeans". I mean the opportunities here are endless. If you want I could come up with a mock list of civics for one group. Ideally though, I'd like to know if this would be possible to begin with.

An Empire civic would be about the least unique civic one could think of, practically every culture group would have it so I don't see the point.

Hm, yes, I suppose it would be possible. I could think of two ways to implement it:

One, giving each civ a unique civic which replaces one of the default roster, similar to UUs and UBs.

Two, adding extra civics in the roster and making the techs that unlock them not researchable, so only civs which start with a given dummy tech could adopt its respective civic. Maybe one could add a separate civic category just for such civics?

I highly doubt Leoreth will implement something like this though, considering his track record with civics suggestions...

Also I put a lot of work into creating a civics roster that makes some sort of sense for everyone in my modmod, and it's still far from perfect. Adding unique civics for this or that civ can only make the whole mess even more complicated.
 
An Empire civic would be about the least unique civic one could think of, practically every culture group would have it so I don't see the point.

Hm, yes, I suppose it would be possible. I could think of two ways to implement it:

One, giving each civ a unique civic which replaces one of the default roster, similar to UUs and UBs.

Two, adding extra civics in the roster and making the techs that unlock them not researchable, so only civs which start with a given dummy tech could adopt its respective civic. Maybe one could add a separate civic category just for such civics?

I highly doubt Leoreth will implement something like this though, considering his track record with civics suggestions...

Also I put a lot of work into creating a civics roster that makes some sort of sense for everyone in my modmod, and it's still far from perfect. Adding unique civics for this or that civ can only make the whole mess even more complicated.

I don't think you understand what I mean by "Empire" in an East Asian sphere, it has a very specific meaning, for a very specific purpose. In this case I was referring to the tributary state system, which China led. With a unique civic system something like that could be implemented. Or Slave Soldiery for Muslim states, have a unique slave soldier unit be available, akin to SoI, or be able to rush soldiers cheaper.

I'll let Leoroth speak for himself, but I'm not sure why this would be confusing. Certain civics would just pertain to certain parts of the world, that is it. Nothing complicated about it.

Alternatively you could have a couple unique civics, akin to Caste System in SoI, which only Hindus take. Make certain civics locked to specific religions or controlling certain regions. There is A LOT you can do with civics that would prevent having weird idiosyncrasies across time and space in the mod.
 
There is A LOT you can do with civics that would prevent having weird idiosyncrasies across time and space in the mod.

Aren't those idiosyncrasies part of why we play Rhyes? Its not to just repeat history, but to craft and lead a civilization through a similar but very different world history. One could argue that certain conditions for different civilizations favour civic choices in the mod that have a sort of a regional effect.

Another part of DoC's charm is the simplicity of design. There are lot of mods out there that you let you choose very specific civics, and you have hundreds of different units to pick from. DoC attempts to keep all of that pretty compact.
 
To be honest, when it comes to civics, I'd rather just have some civs benefit from previous civics better than others. Like, Mongolia Should be able to run Animism, Arabia Should be able to run tribalism; and the Americans should benefit from running militia at the begining of the game.
 
Leoreth, do you have any ideas about how to better represent the internal chinese struggles over the years given that you want no more chinese civs?

There is barb pressure from Tibet (only swordsmen) and Horse Archers from the north west but practically no inland fighting representing rebellions and revolts. For an empire existing from 3000BC to modern day a few fights should be unavoidable.

A simple solution would be to spawn some barbs in mainland China.
 
Leoreth, do you have any ideas about how to better represent the internal chinese struggles over the years given that you want no more chinese civs?

The long term solution over the horizon is a civil war mechanic. Which has been suggested and logged by our fearless leader.

Many countries have experienced many civil wars during their history, but very often there is one defining the Civil War. Roman Civil War, Russian Civil War, American Civil War, Spanish Civil War.
The problem with this is that to make such a civ viable, they have to be given war maps, maybe settler maps and modifiers that match the era they are supposed to appear in. All of these things are currently tied to slots and therefore impossible to make dynamic. So I won't be able to do this until I have untied all modifiers and maps from slots.

I agree, let's just agree that this is best solved together with a civil war mechanic? Which in turn has a dependency on my player slots to civilizations refactoring. For which I'm currently preparing some utility changes. So you could say I'm basically already working on it :D

... The civil war concept is nice and could also apply under certain circumstances, but should not be the norm imo. We could make use of the historical "fall" dates and the respawn time intervals to determine this (a civ could be considered active when it isn't past its fall or within a respawn interval, in which case a reduction to core/capital could be permitted).

That mechanic will come when a major system, such civ slots, is revissited. Do not expect that any time soon. (Though We can only hope that 1.15 may bring some steps in that direction)
 
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