Suggestions and Requests

It matters a lot since it's much better to have commerce be more concentrated in one city. That way a higher share of your civ's commerce is getting multiplied by scarce national wonders and you don't have to spend as many hammers on buildings to get the same science or gold output. And since it's your capital you get Bureaucracy too

That's true, but how would we differentiate between a colony and just another city? Is Sicily a colony of Italy? What if the Italian capital is in Sicily? Are all cities besides the capital to be considered colonies? Maybe all cities outside core area are colonies, but then California would be a colony of America.

Edit: Of course, these questions could be answered by selecting different civics. Some civics could send different ratios of the trade value to different cities.
 
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I just realized, technically we could have quotes for completing buildings and units too, not just techs. Planetfall, presumably stealing from Alpha Centauri, has a quote read out loud every time you complete the first type of a given building. Maybe that's a little ambitious, but at least we could have something like this for wonders? Civ5 does it for for those.
 
"Non-core territory on another continent" would be abe good enough definition of a colony to start wit
That's true, but how would we differentiate between a colony and just another city? Is Sicily a colony of Italy? What if the Italian capital is in Sicily? Are all cities besides the capital to be considered colonies? Maybe all cities outside core area are colonies, but then California would be a colony of America.

Edit: Of course, these questions could be answered by selecting different civics. Some civics could send different ratios of the trade value to different cities.

No because Sicily has a land connection to Florence :lol: I think colony would be defined as non-core territory on another continent. Though it wouldn't fit that well for a contiguous land empire on multiple "continents" like Mughals owning Persia, or a non-conouldtiguous case like Moors owning Algeria and France. Though we would want it to apply to France owning Algeria!
 
I just realized, technically we could have quotes for completing buildings and units too, not just techs. Planetfall, presumably stealing from Alpha Centauri, has a quote read out loud every time you complete the first type of a given building. Maybe that's a little ambitious, but at least we could have something like this for wonders? Civ5 does it for for those.
What do you mean presumably, haven't you played the best game of all time?

If you want to collect quotes for wonders (less so buildings imo) go ahead, I'm out of energy for quotes at the moment.
 
What do you mean presumably, haven't you played the best game of all time?

If you want to collect quotes for wonders (less so buildings imo) go ahead, I'm out of energy for quotes at the moment.

Do they have to be known quotes, or can I get 12 hours sleep, drink some tea and start spouting philosophy?
 
What do you mean presumably, haven't you played the best game of all time?

If you want to collect quotes for wonders (less so buildings imo) go ahead, I'm out of energy for quotes at the moment.

Weeeeeeellllll I have played Planetfall mod Beyond Earth, does that count?

Civ5 has quotes read out loud for every wonder, so that's a starting point at least.
 
Do they have to be known quotes, or can I get 12 hours sleep, drink some tea and start spouting philosophy?
Huh, I have the opposite method to start spouting philosophy.

But no, we need known and preferably sourceable quotes.

Weeeeeeellllll I have played Planetfall mod Beyond Earth, does that count?
Not to trash Planetfall or anything (I will trash BE at any time though, I dislike it more than Civ5 because it has the same terrible mechanics but it also tries to ape SMAC which makes it look worse), but no. Seriously, give it a quick session, it's probably like 10 bucks on GOG or something. I consider it one of the best works of sci fi I have experienced.

Civ5 has quotes read out loud for every wonder, so that's a starting point at least.
Yeah.
 
Can I remind you about 2 small AI Indian civs for 600 AD map, please?
 
I haven't forgotten.
 
No because Sicily has a land connection to Florence

Yea, but that's not true in real life.

The island has also been controlled by the caliphate throughout history. Is it a colony if the Arabs control it, and not a colony if Rome controls it? How about if Greece controls it? Is it part of Europe or Africa? The geological definition of "continent" doesn't necessarily apply here. The distinction must depend on the attitudes between the local and national governments.
 
I agree, it's very hard to come up with a generalizable definition of what a colony is in DoC terms. Not sure it's even possible. Mentioned the example of France and Algeria being owned by the same civ; we'd want that to be a colony-metropole relationship if the capital is in Algeria but not if it's in France so might be that the only way to do it is something like "the metropole is in Europe, colonies are on other continents excluding Siberia after X date" which would be awful
 
Hm, perhaps all cities outside the core automatically start as colonies, but you can "upgrade" them to a proper city with a certain building?

Edit: I once constructed a big wall of text on reddit in which I proposed the following:

There should be a way to conquer and colonize for massive short term gain at the cost of long term development. Basically, when you found a new city you should have the option between making it a core city and making it a colony. If you make it a core city it will have some sort of short term penalty like Civ4's city maintenance, but it will be forever loyal to you and have great long term potential. The more core cities you already have and the further away a new city is from your capital, the higher the city maintenance will be, so that at some point it would take too long for a new core city to pay for itself. This is where colonies come in. If you choose to settle a city as a colony it will cost no maintenance and might provide some other short term benefits (doubled yields from resource tiles come to mind), however it will have doubled unhappiness (local like in Civ4) from population and will be susceptible to rebellious sentiments. The larger a colony grows, the higher the risk of it seceding (joining another nearby civ or becoming a new civ altogether) becomes. As alternative to armed revolution (such as the USA and the British Empire) there should be a way to part on amiable terms, like Canada and Australia with the British Empire, that is you grant your colonies independence before they rise up, which would either turn them into puppet states akin to Civ5's puppet cities or giving you very friendly relations with the newly spawned civ.

I'm not exactly sure how conquered cities fit into this, but there should be options to sack cities or bleed them dry with exploitation before they rebel, again giving you a massive short term benefit but costing you the conquered territory after a while.

Your government structure and civilization would also play a part in this. I can see England gaining a bonus for releasing their colonies, or Persia having an easier time annexing conquered cities rather than just sacking them. Feudalism might treat all cities as puppet cities or something while Totalitarianism would treat all cities as core cities.

Such a system would encourage expansion well into the late game while at the same time not turning huge empires into unstoppable juggernauts.

Here's the link in case anyone is interested in the full thing.
 
Basing trade route value on commerce is kind of circular, since trade routes also provide commerce.
Yeah, on purpose. I tried to propose a very simple system (pretty much the same as the current one, mechanically), that reflects how commerce centres attract trade and become regional trade centres, thus generating more commerce and attracting more trade, thereby becoming national and eventually international trade centres, a positive feedback loop like in real life.

But I'm excited about how you envision a future trade system involving resources, because it would (imho) combine very well with some ideas of more radical changes I've been entertaining for quite a while, but hesitated to suggest. I'll catch up on that below.

I've always felt in-game success or power being so heavily dependent on territorial control (of resources in particular) becoming more and more inappropriate throughout history, especially since the industrial revolution. I'm not the first person to mention that it's kinda difficult to have several productive cities in Japan or Germany, which seems just... let's say in need of adjustment. The following suggestions are intended to be a global approach to this, though not necessarily depending on each other.

First of all, I'd propose to have quantitative resources, so one resource tile can provide different amounts of that respective resource. I'd also suggest resources of low quantity being easier to exploit (even by an earlier tech), so Cypriot copper or Pennsylvanian oil are of high value when the respective resource's age begins, but become ever-decreasingly important later on. Another advantage of this would be that it wouldn't be necessary to plaster a certain number of tiles with a given resource to have that amount of that resource available. Also, resource abundance and tile yield wouldn't be as rigidly linked anymore.
This could include energy, too - the Three Gorges Dam providing a certain amount of an energy resource would probably act way more sensible than now (when you build it as the Aswan Dam, it doesn't even provide Nubia with energy, but if you managed to conquer Oslo, ta-dah, fiat lux...).

Second, quantitative resource need/consumption. By this, I mean that, having access to one iron resource, you'd be able to build (random numbers) maybe four axemen at the same time (in four different cities), but only one tank, and even need more iron (or rather steel, see below) to build a single battleship. This would make large empires evermore hungry for resources (as they should be), instead of becoming rather saturated, which appears unrealistic. Small civs, on the other hand, would be easier to sustain with less resources (small amounts of a resource being easier to acquire, assumed that, with all my suggestions applied, global resource abundance would be much higher), for health and happiness purposes at least, but still limiting the overall production output.

Third, I'd like to see produced resources added, generated by certain buildings with access to required base resources; a forge (or another similar building) with tin and copper available (and consumed in the process, i.e. not available for any other process requiring those resources) would then provide bronze, a blast furnace would smelt iron and coal into steel (obviously not necessarily at a 1+1=1 ratio). Thus, manufacturing would become part of the game, which could provide a lot of new resources, which could then be exported by developed nations (in exchange for basic resources, for example), forming a more complex and realistic resource/trade/economy system. Even additional levels of processing could take place, e.g. steel could enable a car factory to produce automobiles, which then would need gasoline (oil+refinery) and (natural) rubber (or even tyres made of it) to provide whatever effect they're supposed to (unhealthiness, commerce, production, cottage growth, happiness...?). I remember that you once lamented not to be able to use sheep both as a strategic and health resource, sheep -> wool + meat (or cheese, if you like), voilà, problem solved.

Fourth, I think, by industrialisation (at the latest), production should become more and more independent of surrounding terrain, rather relying on industrial infrastructure, i.e. buildings, these providing significant production bonuses, even more so with appropriate resources (like steel, oil, aluminium) available (maybe further promoted by educational buildings, resembling a skilled workforce). This, obviously, is crucial to enable small but technologically advanced civs, e.g. Japan, Germany, Korea, France and UK (stripped of their colonies), to become industrial, economic powerhouses. With quantitative resource need for buildings, too, large empires, like Russia, could not just boost their production everywhere by this, taking way more time to develop the whole nation than a small country does.

Fifth, same goes for city population. It's weird that one tile island cities can easily have a million citizens, while cities like Las Vegas or Hotien are barely sustainable, let alone of use. Therefore, I'd propose to have a certain share of food yield evenly distributed between all cities, increasing from 0% in Antiquity up to maybe 50% in Modern times (which seems much more realistic to me than having modern cities depending on the neighbouring countryside's harvest; actually, we're eating food from all over the world). Also, food resources could provide a bonus when available.

Sixth, doubled movement points (and ZoCs). Just wanna bring this up again, stubborn me...

Independent from these suggestions, I'd also like to see more short-lived resources, which where of extraordinary significance at a certain time in history, but became irrelevant later, e.g. salt, amber, saltpetre, rubber.

This should be enough input for now, some of it might even be of use...
 
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This is such a great post to read, I've also been thinking a lot about some of these things, and in particular about having a) quantified resources, and b) manufactured resources. I hadn't come to actually write it because my mind is still trying to figure out how it would be good to have this in the game... but here are my thoughts!

To build on what's already been said by makka, manufactured resources one of the most important things that explain differences in development around the world and can help us to have strong post-colonial countries (in Europe, but also Japan, Korea, and the US) despite countries having small territories or having their territory mostly full of grasslands (like Germany).

There are a couple of manufactured resources that come to mind as first iterations. I'd propose to include porcelain, plastics, electronic products and vehicles. As for steel (and I'd thought of textile fabrics too) the problem is that the major uses of iron and cotton/wool are as steel and fabrics, just like grapes are mostly used for wine making and we don't have both as separate things. Then representing the manufacturing process itself might not be that necessary for these products. All manufactured resources would be tied to particular buildings such as "electronics factory" and "vehicles factory" (and porcelain I think should be tied to China's UB).

Regarding the location and availability of raw materials, I'd like to propose only having in the map extracted raw materials (anything you get from mines, quarries, fishing and whaling boats, and hunting camps). For all produced raw materials (what you get from farms, pastures, orchards, and plantations), I'd propose to remove most of them from the map, leaving only one per area where they were domesticated (representing wild varieties). Every civ, when they build a farm, pasture, orchard or plantation, gets to choose what to grow there, with two restrictions: 1) that the resource is available there in real life (we can create maps or rules), so that for example coffee can only grow in tropical regions, and 2) that the civ already has access to the resource. A civ would have access to a resource if it's already growing it or if it acquires it through trade.

I'd suggest to add a resource improvement for sea tiles, fish farms, to represent aquaculture. This would come late in the game and allow the production of fish, crabs, clams or pearls. I'd also suggest having quarries buildable on any land terrain except deserts, providing hammers and representing sand, gravel and ground limestone, which are all used as construction materials like concrete. Of course, this comes with the opportunity cost of producing food in the tile. As a fun fact, desert sand is not useful as construction material because it's too smooth due to wind erosion, and it doesn't "stick together" like other sand does – hence my recommendation of not making this available in deserts.

Now, regarding the quantities produced (for all resources, incl. produced raw materials, extracted raw materials, and manufactured goods), I think productivity (per turn) should be directly related to technology and civics. For extracted resources, we could consider having caps (absolute caps for non-renewables or per-turn caps for renewables. I'm not so sure about this because in practice we can have caps already via tech and civics and while resource depletion is definitely a real problem, it wouldn't matter so much until the very, very late game so that representing isn't as necessary.

I have some doubts on how to represent consumption of materials, though. Anything that a city produces (in the production queue) such as units, buildings, and wonders could have a cost on resources. For example, building a swordsman would not only require having iron available, but actually consuming some of that iron. But how would that translate to the production of manufactured goods? If vehicles were to be added as one of the manufactured resources, and we were to say it requires the consumption of iron or aluminum, would they be automatically consumed, or only if they are left over? and then how does the civ prioritize when it wants steel for manufactured goods and when to save steel for a navy? My preferred option would be for the civ to have to ask the city to produce this or that manufactured resource, so that a vehicle factory only enables the city to produce vehicles, but only does so when these are in the production queue. The amount of vehicles then depends on the technology level and the civics.

A question I still have is whether to represent construction materials. Besides marble and limestone, which have specific uses on wonders that we could quantify, we could assume that the game already represents timber and construction aggregates (ie, sand, gravel, ground stone, as I was mentioning earlier) in the form of added hammers from forests and hills, yet these aren't resources per se – they're sort of invisible. I'd imagine that to follow the logic of "building a swordsman costs 1 iron", we'd have something like "building a castle costs 4 stone", but then we could also think of including timber and aggregates (maybe we can call that "cement") in this category. As I said, I'm not sure about this.

As for the consumption and distribution of food resources, ideally, food should be tradeable, so that civs can send "10 wheat, or 2 wheat per turn" to other civs as part of trade agreements, for cash, or in master/vassal relationships. The more interesting question is how to decide which city within the receiving civ gets the resource and grows. I'd propose that this is tied to security and employment. In other words, cities that are in peace (no revolts or attacks) and have more economic activities (so, more buildings) have priority over those that are insecure or have no employment. Unhappiness (and not sure about unhealthiness?) would act as a cap, with cities that are too densely populated not growing anymore and leaving food to others. Civics should also play a part here. For example, absolutism and central planning, would pull the balance towards the capital and to industrial cities, while agrarianism and feudalism would favor agricultural cities, and external trade civics would favor seaports. Civics should also affect food distribution between core and colony cities.

The interesting thing about this dynamic is that it allows for food security and industrialization to play much more important roles. The strategy would be for colonizing countries to import food from their colonies to sustain growing populations and then to continue, as industrialized countries with land scarcity, to depend to some extent (as Japan or Singapore do) on food imports to sustain this population. High population means that there should be a high number of worker specialists in the city, which represents perfectly what has happened in the world in the last century or two.

And since we're talking about this, I'd also love seeing new resources (some of which were already mentioned by makka): potatoes, soybean, olives, oil palm, apples, citrus, pineapple (or another tropical fruit), cocoa, hemp, rubber, timber, seaweed, coral, amber, saltpeper.

Hopefully this will spark some more discussion! :)
 
The ideas posted above sound very interesting. I have a few quick notes based on my experiences of making a new world map.

1. Expendable resources. Resources get used up as they are worked. Eventually, the area will be depleted. For example, gold and silver in Europe run out, which gives more value to the new metals discovered in America. The same could represent coal or oil resources. Also, dye that used to be sourced around the Mediterranean could "go out of style", requiring civs to find new sources in India or the Caribbean. Whale and fish are other examples of easily depleted resources. Many areas of the arctic and Antarctic were only explored in the search for valuable whale resources.

2. Transplanting resources. Many resources from the middle East, India, and China were grown in America even though they were not native to that area. For example, Hispaniola was basically just a convenient place where Europeans could grow their own cash crops from Asia. Resources like these shouldn't automatically show up in America. Resources should only show up in your colony if you already have access to it from somewhere else, such as from trade or another colony. I like the idea where you can choose which resource you want to grow upon building a plantation. This could also be combined with the trade route production ideas from other posts.

3. New resources. Opium and cocaine, among the most valuable traded resources ever. Highly linked to specific regions of the world and geopolitics. Could also be replaced by a synthetic version like ivory and plastic.
 
Hopefully this will spark some more discussion! :)
Seems like the two of us managed to achieve the exact opposite... one post within four days... in a thread that used to see half a dozen each day... what the heck?
 
Sh.t happens :crazyeye:

Perhaps it was too much, or perhaps nobody is interested, or nobody really had nothing to add? In any case, Leo often doesn't reply immediately with his thoughts to wait for other people to weigh in. Since it doesn't seem like that will happen, Leo, is there anything from those three posts related to resources that you think might be worthwhile to discuss further, or should we all just move on with our lives? :lol:
 
I mean, I do agree with these goals from a realism perspective. However, my approach to designing/changing the mod is that a) I don't want to completely abandon basic game concepts of BtS and b) I think improvements should be incremental so we can better control for the (intended and unintended) consequences. Your suggestions are comprehensive and radical, which on one hand is good because it shows a lot of thought was put into them, but on the other that makes them sort of ill fitted for what I think is the best approach to implementing change.

If you look at BtS, there is a number of different game elements that connect to each other in some ways. If they are not connected, the game would literally fall apart as your decisions are not feeding into each other anymore. Most of your suggestions are about breaking up these connections as you radically change what those elements are. I don't think it's impossible to put them back together in a functioning or even better way, but if you break up everything at the same time that becomes hard to manage.

I think about doing these things too, but usually discard or postpone radical ideas like this. I'd rather move forward with the trade changes idea I mentioned earlier, which is preferable in my opinion because it retools existing game elements (corporations) and folds them back into an existing but not very well fleshed out other element (trade, resources) while offering opportunities to also further relate to more (diplomacy, technologies, culture).

And I would even consider this to be a very disruptive idea that will take a while to get right.

I'm sympathetic to other ideas that I think might work (e.g. allowing for more industry from local population as opposed to resource extraction), but even that really needs to be considered in how it would affect what city locations people choose etc. Stuff like global food redistribution would be even more radical in that regard. I can't stress how important the idea that the environment determines the value of your cities is to a game like Civ.
 
I don't want to completely abandon basic game concepts of BtS
I got this impression well before (that's why I hesitated to post those suggestions and what keeps me from proposing really radical ideas I have in mind) and I'm very aware of
how important the idea that the environment determines the value of your cities is to a game like Civ.
But actually I really don't perceive the aforementioned suggestions abandoning any basic CIV game concepts, rather extendending and elaborating 'em, just like many RFC/DoC features did before (e.g. religion, UPs).
The points affecting relation between surrounding terrain and city placement would only come into full effect when industrialisation gets going and most part of the world should already be settled, thus largely affecting existing cities, not those that were to be founded, and by then add another interesting level of complexity to gameplay (quite fitting the era, imo).
Also, assuming in advance that you
think improvements should be incremental so we can better control for the (intended and unintended) consequences.
was the reason why I pointed out that there exist no intrinsic dependencies between all of these suggestions.
Either quantitative resource abundance and consumption, national/international food sharing, deliberate resource proliferation or industrial infrastructure could be separately implemented and sorted out first, then, in case that works out, followed by the other enhancements (am I cocky to use this word...?), one at a time. From my point of view, the only connection between game elements that suffers (not even broken up completely) from these suggestions is the one between a city's surroundings and its "performance" (in the broadest sense) potential, but only in the late game (and replaced by a new connection between technology and development on one hand and a city's potential on the other - again, quite fitting the era). And, while crucial in early and middle stages of the game, as far as I'm concerned, gameplay rather suffers than gains from that connection in the late game.
 
I like the idea of an opium resource. More important of an export from India than tea or bananas and would put at least one luxury resource in Germany
 
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