Suggestions and Requests

mysterious_stalker said:
I wonder if modding in the Camp unit from the Mongols mod from Warlords (which occasionally spawns certain types of units) to represent the nomadic "barbarians", such as the steppe nomads or all the minor tribes would be a welcome addition.
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Yes, many years ago I was arguing that civilizations on this planet have been essentially 2 types: sons of Cain and sons of Abel. Cain built a first city while Abel was happy with Pastorialism until his jealous brother killed him. So having cities to be in the ONLY center of the game called Civilization is simply wrong. Fundamentally new "moving city" concept has to be created, Mongol Camp from Warlords was the closest in that regard. Along with some ways to steal technologies from city dwellers, of course. But those talks went no were.

Tigranes said:
How about creating some fundamentally new experience instead of building on top of the existing features? Here is just one example:

There were 2 fundamentally different types of civilizations in history: nomadic and sedentary. Sons of Cain and Sons of Abel. This fact is not a secondary feature, it is a fundamental piece of historical reality like religion, like wars, like culture, like science. Ignoring this reality in the game called Civilization is like ignoring females in the game called Humans.

Civilization series have engine that revolves around sedentary civilization only, only Sons of Cain are present. Barbarians suppose to represent nomads, but they too become city dwellers early in vanila game. The only time I saw something close to represent Nomads as they are -- was Mongols scenario in Warlords: I am talking about Mongol Tent unit.

That is a good starting point. Imagine playing civilization with mobile "cities". Just a new object that can move. Call it horde. Horde has population points, which can work tiles in BFC. It can build regular units and animals instead of buildings. Animals like horses or sheep act like mobile improvements on tiles they are parked on. Horde does not generate money. You have to move your animals into cultural border of sedentary (regular) civ to cash them. You can also pillage and capture cities which will act like puppets in Civ5: AI manages them for you and creates units and tributes for you. You can always raze them. You can also cash the culture of the city you have captured. Techs are not researchable. You discover them from huts, buy them from others, or occasionally capture them in wars.

Something along these lines. I hope you got an idea.
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ales_ said:
Isn't there already a modmod like that by merijn_v1?
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Oh, really? I should look that up then, thanks.
Tigranes said:
Yes, many years ago I was arguing that civilizations on this planet have been essentially 2 types: sons of Cain and sons of Abel. Cain built a first city while Abel was happy with Pastorialism until his jealous brother killed him. So having cities to be in the ONLY center of the game called Civilization is simply wrong. Fundamentally new "moving city" concept has to be created, Mongol Camp from Warlords was the closest in that regard. Along with some ways to steal technologies from city dwellers, of course. But those talks went no were.
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I completely agree, it's hard to implement for actual civilizations unfortunately (notably because the AI have no clue how to play without cities). However, barbarian ones could work, just to give some additional resistance here. Currently, Russia really grinds my gears. I suppose it's for balance reasons that they start so early and get so much area for founding cities (because they need to colonize Siberia later on, as the only civ who is even allowed to do so), but a lot of regions they simply settle required military expeditions against native tribes. Again, though - Civilization IV doesn't really represent actual history and it takes quite a bit of skill to make it do it at least somewhat accurately, like in DoC. Whew, I can't really stop myself from writing too much...
 
About Russia: I actually expected in a game with Poland that Russia would be vassalized by Mongols and they will come to Europe as well - was kinda afraid of them knowing what happened historically. But that would probably block Poland from achieving UHV...
Btw does it help to build castles against Mongols? Because this is how Hungary beat their second invasion. But I guess the unrest makes the defence bonus futile.
 
Rodnok said:
About Russia: I actually expected in a game with Poland that Russia would be vassalized by Mongols and they will come to Europe as well - was kinda afraid of them knowing what happened historically. But that would probably block Poland from achieving UHV...
Btw does it help to build castles against Mongols? Because this is how Hungary beat their second invasion. But I guess the unrest makes the defence bonus futile.
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Only cultural defences disappear, I don't think walls and castles are useless against them.
 
Yes they are, the Mongol UP puts cities into unrest which negates all defences from any source.
 
Hungary isn't even in this game and the Mongols don't usually reach this region.
 
Not Trying to discredite the Mod cause it is Grand and the best mod historically pretty accurate. Only the flipzones and areas of control a nation can be in are sometimes historically incorrect and sometimes they flip a foreign area (not allowed to be in). They are based on the old Rhye and Fall, sure... But might need Tweaking. I just looked through the Maps file that comes in the Maps folder of the mod so and made a small compile..

Rome might be the worst not allowing to be in central spain and most of portugal and the nothern part of modern day France (they can't be in Paris :s ), Belgium, south half of the Netherland, common knowledge they held it up to the rhine as the border and even held territory accross (though the rhine might be the best border, historically). Also they held Iraq. Also they have a single contested on london and can't be in the rest of England! To make it worse they can colonize 1 bit of north west Canada as historical!.. Yeah Canada... and 2 bits Nova Scotia contested!

Arabia can (blue) Flipzone Crete and Cyprus and a little part and the egypt/Nubia border which is all orange foreign area. Cyprus they weren't able to properly hold and of Crete there was an emirate of Crete (824/827-951) Though these were Andalusian exiles, so maybe it are more the Moors hard to say. I rarely see the arabs survive long, might be me though. Seljuk are very tricky of course.

Mongolia has a too small area they can be in. They can't be in China for example, besides the north edges. they had a dynasty there, so prolly very contested but hey, England has the same in India. Also they claim foreign areas in a flip, north/NW and east. I never ever see Mongolia last long usually gone in a couple centuries from over expansion (anyone else has?), already so this doesn't help, As they get hordes (similar to rome/greece) to conquer that are a mix of contested and foreign area to them in Babylonia/Persia/Turkey mostly, again making them collpase even quicker.

Small tweaks: Improper Flip zones (usually claiming foreign area or not properly their own core)

Indonesia has a single (green) flip zone that is orange
Iran has foreign little bit of flip zone. No flip for bits of north and south inside their own core. If you look at Persia, they have a proper/core flip zone.
Khmer, single spot of 1 foreign area (NE) (green flip)
Mexico has little bits in the north and north/east.
Mughal have a little (green) flip zone of Tibet (foreign)
Phoenicia, little bit (green) foreign flip. (little matter so early though)
Portugal doesn't flip south portugal, and that part isn't core either (historical).
Russia Flip foreign areas to the west, part of Poland's core.
Spain can't be in 1 spot of South East spain (Murcia I think). Even while they can flip it (green) :o
 
There is something very unrealistic when one can draft units from newly conquered cities. Perhaps some nationality requirements must be put in place.
 
Yeah I agree, A newly conquered city usually has about 25% people that switch sides. Maybe setting the requirement to 50% might be most logical.
 
Nyayr said:
Indonesia has a single (green) flip zone that is orange
Iran has foreign little bit of flip zone. No flip for bits of north and south inside their own core. If you look at Persia, they have a proper/core flip zone.
Khmer, single spot of 1 foreign area (NE) (green flip)
Mexico has little bits in the north and north/east.
Mughal have a little (green) flip zone of Tibet (foreign)
Phoenicia, little bit (green) foreign flip. (little matter so early though)
Portugal doesn't flip south portugal, and that part isn't core either (historical).
Russia Flip foreign areas to the west, part of Poland's core.
Spain can't be in 1 spot of South East spain (Murcia I think). Even while they can flip it (green) :o
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These maps are outdated. Many of the issues reported are already fixed. And in some cases the "mismatches" are intentional.
 
I don't like the phrasing of saying that you "can't be" in certain areas. You certainly can, just found or conquer a city there. Often times your examples focus on empires that were very unstable and collapsed in relatively short period of time, so it is not a convincing argument only to say that they once held territory somewhere.

When the new map is introduced I will try to come up with a system for tile stability that reflects this sort of thing better.

I also plan to generate new stability maps (the ones that come included with the mod) before release.
 
It will be logical to have "Corporations have no effect" effect with Central Planning. Right now there is no way to get rid of pervasive corporations who expand when they please and make people like @Imp. Knoedel angry. After all,
"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."
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