Suggestions and Requests

[Fresol]

I'm just complaining about the nerf on China tech rate. It's now just impossible to go for UHV on Paragon, since you can't get Writing before Greeks spawn, which means everything gets delayed. Ironically, the Chinese UP can't be utilized even once(since Babylonia starts with AH).

I don't understand why this nerf was placed to begin with. I just rolled a 3000 BC P/N Mongolia game and China collapsed on its own, and on my spawn(which was bugged with no tech) they only had Gunpowder, which is nothing out of the ordinary. Meanwhile, India already had Astronomy. In my experience, it's AI India and Babylonia that need some good nerfing. Increase their settler cost to begin with. For AI China, just stop giving them free cities in early game, at least make the settlers travel their distance.

The tech rate nerf means next to nothing to the AI but deals a heavy blow to the human player. I recommend revert the nerf and find other ways to deal with unreasonable AI advances.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

Paragon is designed to be unfair. Balancing is done around Regent, the standard difficulty level. And pre-nerf, it was so easy to tech on that level that some players could reach the Industrial Era before the Mongol spawn.

 

[Fresol]

I doubt the nerf does much to regent level, since it's just regent, it's designed so that you can win without a problem. Don't we already have tech leader penalty for it anyway? And the nerf was placed after someone posted about AI China's unreasonable tech lead, so I don't think it was directed against human player, but rather the AI. Also I think Leoreth wanted to compensate for the increased food yield on Rice? But that was overdoing it, since the effect on increased yield was marginal.

 

[Leoreth]

I had to think for a moment which Chinese tech nerf you were talking about until you brought up the rice changes.

Another thing that might be affecting China in recent revisions is that I fixed a bug that made tech leader penalties less severe, so they might need another adjustment to account for that.

I've also been thinking about retooling their UP so that they instead receive no penalty for researching techs that nobody else knows.

Also I am aware that India is out of control right now.

 

[Fresol]

IMO, this kind of UP is difficulty-sensitive and has a snowballing effect, which I don't like much. You know, there's not a single other civilization that has a Unique Deficit: can't trade tech with others.

We need a new UP for the Chinese, maybe one that's related to vassalization.

 

[Leoreth]

It's not a unique deficit, you are only prevented from trading techs whose sole owner you are. If your complaint is that you don't get to research techs first anymore then I don't understand why this is a problem for you at all.

 

[Publicola]

The recent kerfuffle over Netanyahu's speech to the US Congress has made me wonder if there ought to be another diplomatic option related to sanctions. The specific instance I was thinking about was allowing one nation to 'sanction' another for trying to research Fission (for nukes). This could theoretically be expanded for other techs or other causes (change to ____ civic). I'm not really sure of a specific mechanism, though I thought it should involve at least no trade between the nations, though perhaps it might also mean blocking the target nation from trading with others. Another thought would be to have it involve the sanctioning nation incurring a specific cost (in gold per turn or otherwise) for a slightly greater cost (in gold per turn, or research, or food/production, etc.) for the targeted nation. Thoughts?

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

Maybe building nukes, rather than researching fission. After all, it's entirely possible that the civ just wants to start a domestic nuclear power project! But seriously, fission just leads to other techs and generally I think that the AI wouldn't be able to handle weighing up the pros and cons of researching it. I think it's an alright idea although I'd probably turn it into a UN resolution thing (if it isn't already? I thought it was, but I don't really play late game much). Sanction X nation's nuclear programme - civ must dismantle all nukes or all current trades are cancelled and/or massive gpt forfeit.

Of course, not all nations actually go through with sanctions so that's a flawed idea. This is why there should be a mechanism for late game alliances of a grander scale a la NATO and Warsaw Pact - but I don't know what. Maybe an upgrade to Defensive Pacts post-fission - but this is off topic and random brainstorming now.

 

[Shadow Warlord]

The recent kerfuffle over Netanyahu's speech to the US Congress has made me wonder if there ought to be another diplomatic option related to sanctions. The specific instance I was thinking about was allowing one nation to 'sanction' another for trying to research Fission (for nukes). This could theoretically be expanded for other techs or other causes (change to ____ civic). I'm not really sure of a specific mechanism, though I thought it should involve at least no trade between the nations, though perhaps it might also mean blocking the target nation from trading with others. Another thought would be to have it involve the sanctioning nation incurring a specific cost (in gold per turn or otherwise) for a slightly greater cost (in gold per turn, or research, or food/production, etc.) for the targeted nation. Thoughts?

This makes me think of how civ 3 had trade embargos you could sign with another civ to keep both from ttrading with a 3rd party. I think right now the only option is you can ask civ A to stop trading with Civ B, but that isn't necessarily binding. If they aren't already, sanctions should be part of the UN.

Maybe building nukes, rather than researching fission. After all, it's entirely possible that the civ just wants to start a domestic nuclear power project! But seriously, fission just leads to other techs and generally I think that the AI wouldn't be able to handle weighing up the pros and cons of researching it. I think it's an alright idea although I'd probably turn it into a UN resolution thing (if it isn't already? I thought it was, but I don't really play late game much). Sanction X nation's nuclear programme - civ must dismantle all nukes or all current trades are cancelled and/or massive gpt forfeit.

Of course, not all nations actually go through with sanctions so that's a flawed idea. This is why there should be a mechanism for late game alliances of a grander scale a la NATO and Warsaw Pact - but I don't know what. Maybe an upgrade to Defensive Pacts post-fission - but this is off topic and random brainstorming now.

UN already has the nuclear non proliferation resolution, which i think prevents anyone from building nukes once it's adopted.

 

[Fresol]

It's not a unique deficit, you are only prevented from trading techs whose sole owner you are. If your complaint is that you don't get to research techs first anymore then I don't understand why this is a problem for you at all.

I was saying is that it IS a unique deficit, i.e. a penalty others don't incur, on Regent or whatever where UP is working.

My complaint is that there are better alternatives to fix AI tech rate problems, without reducing playability to the human player, which are of course, more appealing to me.

 

[Leoreth]

Others don't incur this penalty because they don't have a UP that makes them research techs faster. Don't act as if there is ever a net disadvantage.

 

[LatestGuy]

A proposal for England. Instead of the recent tech nerf, why don't we make some resources late spawning? Before 16th century, London and England in general was not so crowded and powerful as it usually appears here.

 

[ezzlar]

A proposal for England. Instead of the recent tech nerf, why don't we make some resources late spawning? Before 16th century, London and England in general was not so crowded and powerful as it usually appears here.

There is one leap in food resources: refrigeration. But one of the main drivers for the industrial revolution was improved farming. I am sure earlier improvements made similiar leaps in farming output, for example the arabic agriculture revolution.

What if many of the early food improvements that have something like a +3 modifier instead only had +1 at start. Then at certain milestone techs the yield increases by +1.

I know unhealthiness should keep city sizes down but I dont really think it works. Another way of doing it making the improvement offer little increase in yield but appropriate buildings gives food bonuses instead.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

I think i read somewhere that France had a 4x larger population (~30 Million) in 1800 than Great Britain ... It seems Scotland has a bit much food resources. Compare it to Norway, they have around the same population today and Scotland has fish, sheep, cow and Norway has.... nothing.
Historically London was the only urban center in GB for a long time, well it's tough to represent that in DoC without ruining Englands development too much.

 

[Leoreth]

A proposal for England. Instead of the recent tech nerf, why don't we make some resources late spawning? Before 16th century, London and England in general was not so crowded and powerful as it usually appears here.

I've also thought about that. Frankly except food some of the stuff in England does not need to be there period.

The challenge in balancing England though is that they need help early and a nerf later when they have many colonies. And this would do the opposite of that.

 

[Ani Taneen]

I apologize I don't know much about the coding required for this suggestion,

Minor cities: Workers are able to upgrade a town into minor city. Tiles containing a minor city will receive a negative food modifier. However each minor city can have certain buildings built within. They acquire one slot in the medieval age and by the end of the information age can be upgraded into two slots.
The list of buildings that can be built with it are as follows:
The castle, provides a defense bonus on the tile and culture bonus to the city.
The harbor, provides naval trade routes to landlocked cities and additional gold to city; however can have negative effects on the city if the city already has a harbor.
The market, provides a gold bonus to any adjacent pastures and plantations. With guilds civic can provide additional gold on tile.
University, provides additional science to the city. With the discovery of biology and plastics, will provide additional gold.
The factory, provides additional production and Negative health effects.

City States Civic Gives a gold bonus to every minor city.

With the technology of industrialization and the requirement of public transportation, a city build a Metropolitan authority which increases the number of slots on all minor cities directly next to it.

 

[mitsuko]

I don't think the problem is that England is too good. They did build the largest empire in history after all. The problem I see is that usually France is much weaker than Englad and Spain because they don't have the shear amount of colonies that the other 2 have. Another problem is that England almost never gets involved in meaningful wars because the AI is too stupid to do real amphibious attacks so their core is never at risk, unlike France who is susceptible to attack as they have large indefensible borders in several directions.

I'd like to see England get in more wars against France and Spain. In most of the games I play, it's usually France and Spain who go to war against each other, probably because of their close borders and it ends up in a bloody endless war near Marseille/Barcelona. All the while the Queen of England is sitting on her throne laughing as France and Spain beat the crap out of each other while England just keeps on building and teching.

So i guess what I'm saying is that France/Spain should have huge negative diplomacy rating with England and maybe also get a slight positive boost with each other.

 

[mitsuko]

I think i read somewhere that France had a 4x larger population (~30 Million) in 1800 than Great Britain ... It seems Scotland has a bit much food resources. Compare it to Norway, they have around the same population today and Scotland has fish, sheep, cow and Norway has.... nothing.
Historically London was the only urban center in GB for a long time, well it's tough to represent that in DoC without ruining Englands development too much.

I agree with this as well. Scotland should have sheep, oil, and nothing else. The deer that is north of London could be moved further north to provide more options for whether you want more population in Newcastle or the Scottish city.

 

[mitsuko]

Ok I got sidetracked talking about England, the real reason I came here is to ask about jungles. Have you considered making them not clearable? I like before discovering medicine you can only build plantations and mines. That's the way it should be for the entire game honestly. It is very disheartening seeing South America, Indochina, and SubSaharan Africa turned into vast grasslands with no jungle at all. It's quite ridiculous really.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

IMO, this kind of UP is difficulty-sensitive and has a snowballing effect, which I don't like much. You know, there's not a single other civilization that has a Unique Deficit: can't trade tech with others.

We need a new UP for the Chinese, maybe one that's related to vassalization.

It's not a unique deficit, you are only prevented from trading techs whose sole owner you are. If your complaint is that you don't get to research techs first anymore then I don't understand why this is a problem for you at all.

Well, I'd like to point out that the Chinese UP also has a bit of a deficit in that it you know, expires. Which makes sense for the Qing period, but there were still patents being registered for inventions by Chinese engineers in the RoC period and a boom of innovation now in the modern period. The expiration doesn't make any sense in that context.

I happen to agree as well with Fresol on the topic of human accessibility, which at this point, I've been beating like a dead horse.
Most of my time with the mod if I've been playing these days is spent generating favorable starts rather than actually playing.