Suggestions and Requests

[Wessel V1]

I just loaded a Japanese 3000 BC start, a civ (I assume India) circumnavigated in 1240. China has Cuirassiers and the option to research Rifling in the early 14th century.

 

[Novicenoble]

I don't know whether similar idea had been proposed before, but I will write it here.

How about disabling or changing some resource bonuses following to civic and religions? For example, you cannot get bonuses from pig and wine when you are running Islamic theocracy, cow gives happiness instead of health when Hinduism is state religion.

 

[Leoreth]

Currently religions are still mostly the same (excepting anomalies such as Catholicism's hammers from AP and access to wonders). I'll think about it when I get to making them different.

 

[ezzlar]

When Civ4 was released I was disappointed when I noticed that religions didnt differ at all. They were just a source of conflicts. But then I realized the genious of that implementation, because that is just what it is!

Religious wonders combined with civ leader traits and respective UP/UB/UU give enough flavour for diversity. Faith points or similiar should be implemented. It is too easy to jump around shopping state religious wonders.

 

[Leoreth]

Can you (or someone else) explain how faith points work in RFCE?

 

[merijn_v1]

I copy of that part of the concepts page.

Basically, you get or loose FP by doing certain actions (building religious buildings, by a new Great Prophet action, spreading your religion (+), spreading another religion (-) etc.). Each religion has it's own bonus. The more FP you have, the bigger the bonus.

Spoiler :

Religion Overhaul
What sets RFC:Europe apart from RFC is the complete overhaul of the religion dynamics. We have four major religions (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism and Islam) as well as Judaism as a minor religion. All religions are asymmetric, with each one providing unique befits. In order to simulate the complicated dynamics that existed between the religions, we have implemented The Great Schism, Reformation, Crusades, The Pope as a special player, Faith Points and Religious Prosecutions.

On the Five Religions
Catholicism, Judaism and Orthodoxy are founded at the start of the game, with Holy Cities at Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople. Islam is founded on the turn that Arabia spawns, with Holy City at Damascus. Mecca is geographically not included and hence Damascus was chosen as the Arabic center of religious power (as well as the Arabic capital). Protestantism is founded by the first player to research the Printing Press, the Protestant Holy City is chosen at random, much like Holy Cities in regular BtS. Whenever a religion is founded, the Holy Shrine is automatically build in the corresponding Holy City.

Judaism
Unlike the other four religions, Jews never tried to spread their faith by the sword and quite often they were the victims of that sword. In RFC:Europe Jews spread throughout Europe in a semi-random manner, driven by trade and trade opportunities. Cities with Judaism can build Jewish Quarters that provide a boost of culture and gold.

The Great Schism
Prior to 1054AD, Catholics and Orthodoxes had many differences, but in more ways then not acted as a single religion. In RFC:Europe, there is no diplomatic penalty between Catholic and Orthodox players, until 1054AD.

Reformation
The discovery of the Printing Press and founding Protestantism trigger the Reformation. All Catholic players have the opportunity to convert to the new religion. Conversion changes Catholicism to Protestantism and all the religious buildings are converted to their corresponding counterparts, however, Catholicism is not completely removed from all the large cities. Some of the Faith Points are also generated. The AI's probability to convert is based upon the actual history of the corresponding nation.

Faith Points
Faith points are an abstract concept that determines the level of benefits that a player can obtain from the corresponding religion.
- Civilizations generally start with 0 faith points.
- Changing the state religion resets the faith points to 0.
- Spread of the state religion throughout the empire and building religious buildings (Temples, Monasteries and Cathedrals) generate faith points.
- Spread of a non-state religion decreases the amount of faith points.
- Faith points provide different benefit for every religion
- Large boost of Faith Points is provided by the Great Prophets to compensate for the fact that they can no longer build Holy Shrines
- The current number of Faith Points and the benefits thay provide can be seen in the Religious Advisor screen

Catholicism
The benefits of Faith Points for Catholic players are not as straight forward as those for the other religions. It all revolves around the Pope and his role as an absolute authority over the Catholic Church. Check the special section on the Pope and his role in the game.

Islam
Geographically Islam stretches well beyond the boundaries of our map. Thus, with strong faith (i.e. a lot of Faith Points), the Islamic nations receive a boost on their Growth as well as a hammer discount for new Units.

Orthodoxy
[PARAGRAPH:2]One of the key concepts of the Orthodox Church is the principle of Caesaropapism, that is the subjugation of the religious authority under the secular authority. As a result, strong faith boosts the stability of the Orthodox nations and lowers the civic maintenance cost.

Protestantism
The new liberal ideas and emphasis on personal freedom, grant the Protestant nations beaker discount for new techs and hammer discount on the production of Colonies and Wonders.

Religious Prosecutions and Stability
As ugly as they were, religious prosecutions were very common in medieval Europe. Thus, in RFC:Europe we present the Prosecutor unit that can be used to remove all non-state religions and buildings from a given city.
- non-state religion in your cities causes instability
- Prosecutions remove the non-state religion and buildings, but generate unhappiness and cause instability of their own, resulting in an even larger penalty
- Prosecution instability and unhappiness wear off over time, so the short term penalty creates a long term benefit
- Spain does not suffer from Prosecution penalty, however, they do suffer from unhappiness
- Prosecutions generate Faith Points
- The combined Prosecution instability vs added Faith Points and boost of Orthodox stability still generates short term instability
- Religion cannot be removed from its Holy City (i.e. no religion can be completely destroyed) and no religion can be removed from Jerusalem
- When Jews are being prosecuted from one city, they automatically move to another from the same or different nation
- Under the civic Free Religion, Prosecutions are impossible and no instability is generated by numerous religions in the same city

The Pope
The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church and has absolute authority over it. Every player that choses Catholicism would have to interact with the Pope in more than one way.
- The Pope can never control any city other than Rome and the Pope's culture cannot extend beyond Rome's BFC
- The Pope would gift money and units to faithful Catholic players
- Relations with the Pope play a major role in the Crusade dynamics
- To get any benefits from the Pope you must Open Borders with him
- If you Open Borders with the Pope, you will soon see an army of Missionaries spreading Catholicism for you
- On the same note, for a non-Catholic player, Open Borders with the Pope is probably not a good idea (see Prosecutions and Stability)
- The Pope would also randomly build Churches and Monasteries for the Catholic nations
- The Pope can remove non-Catholic religions from the cities of Catholic players (generating unhappiness and instability for the corresponding player)

Crusades
There are two types of Crusades: for the Holy Land that aim at capturing Jerusalem and Defensive that aim at reclaiming a city lost by a Catholic player.
Crusades for the Holy Land
- From the 1000AD on, the Pope may periodically call for a Crusade for the Holy Land
- A Crusade is called only if Jerusalem is controlled by a non-Catholic, non-Orthodox and non-Independent player
- Every Catholic nation can participate in the Crusade, sending some units at random (city defenders do not get send off, but other units leave)
- Teutonic Knights and Knight Templars are very likely to leave for the Crusade, Knights are also generally more likely to leave then Archers
- All participants get to vote on a Crusade leader, where the candidates are chosen for their high Faith Points, size of the Empire and good relations with the Pope
- The chosen leader of the Crusade declares war on whomever controls Jerusalem and a few turns later receives a stack of units next to the city
- The first Catholic player that captures Jerusalem (with or without a Crusade) receives a golden age as well as boost of stability and faith
- Refusal to participate in the Crusade decreases one's faith and relations with the Pope
- Sometimes, Crusades can be deviated to go not after Jerusalem, but the capital of any non-Catholic nation
- The richest Catholic player gets the opportunity to deviate the crusade for certain amount of gold
- If one uses gold to take over the Crusade, one can still aim it at Jerusalem
- Reformation makes the Catholic church turn to its own internal affairs and thus stops any further Crusades for the Holy Land

Defensive Crusades[\H2]
- If there is a non-Catholic and non-Orthodox player holding a city in a Catholic player's war map zone then a defensive Crusade can be called
- If the Catholic player is at war with the one holding the city, and if the Catholic player has good relations with the Pope, the Catholic player may get an opportunity for a Defensive Crusade
- Defensive Crusade means that some units would spawn at the Catholic player's capital
- Defensive Crusades cost faith points
- Faith points can be regained by conquering the other player's cities and converting them to Catholicism
Crusades and non-Catholic Religions
If you are an Islamic player, prepare for the Crusaders. Whether you are fighting against the Reconquista, defending Jerusalem or conquering Hungary, Crusaders will come to visit you. Meet them accordingly. Strong Islamic faith would help you build more units and successfully fight off the Crusaders.
Judaism is not meant to be anyone's state religion, however, it as vulnerable to Crusades as Islam.
Orthodox players are generally immune to Crusades, but beware of Balduin I, VI and IX (all numbers refer to the same person). Crusaders can always get greedy and attack you for purely economical reasons.
Reformation stops the Crusades for the Holy Land, however, if you are at war with a Catholic nation, you may still suffer from a defensive Crusade.

The Choice of Religion
The benefits from choosing one religion over another are tied to the individual civilizations' historical preferences. For example the Byzantines would definitely benefit more from Orthodoxy and Spain from Catholicism. Going with the historical setting is never a wrong decision, however, you are always free to experiment anyway you want.

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks, that is actually very similar to what I had in mind.

 

[ezzlar]

Two major points are reset to 0 when switching state religion and attitude boosters based on faith points. Since you get faith points when do stuff, not own them, you cant build all catholic buildings, switch to Islam and then back to Catholicism and enjoy a high faith point ranking (since you start over at zero, cant build those catholic buildings again and you are stuck at low levels of piety).

Wonders could be tied to certain amount of faith points. But that should be for the player, not the AI.

 

[youtien]

How about buildable holy shrines?

Make it available with theology so it won't mess with UHVs of ancient and classical civs. Ancient civs has large penalty in GP and are very unlikely to builld holy shrines.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, it would be nice to "spend" faith on wonders or other religious stuff. This would also nicely counterbalance the fact that certain religions have more wonders than others. I could even imagine this becoming a regular resource like gold.

Some further thoughts that are somewhat different from the RFCE approach:
- instead of getting points for religious buildings (or beyond that), the spread of your state religion and its buildings compared to other religions should either function as a modifier for your faith point output or a cap for the maximum you could keep. This makes the choice of tolerance versus uniformity more interesting.
- instead of gold, shrines should produce extra faith for their owner
- faith points could be spent on acquiring abilities for your religion, I'd prefer that to fixed advantages for every religion
- I think monasteries should become one of the main ways to implement these extra abilities

 

[calad]

Well I like this. If now there could be some intresting way to make Christianity and Islam religions that slowly replace old gods...

 

[strijder20]

Well I like this. If now there could be some intresting way to make Christianity and Islam religions that slowly replace old gods...

Leoreth's idea about gradual spread (depending on a treshold which must be reached instead of a binary situation) could solve this. It'd also make for a nicer geographic spread along concentric circles - like it went in real life.

 

[Leoreth]

Actually, with regional modifiers on either cap and spread rate, I hope I can do much better than concentric circles.

 

[strijder20]

Actually, with regional modifiers on either cap and spread rate, I hope I can do much better than concentric circles.

Well, you know, anything different from the current 'Christianity has been founded in Londinium! Christianity has spread to Tyrus one turn later because some monks decided to get on a boat and sail it for several months, risking their lifes instead of proselytizing in Lutetia first instead'.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah. Although with trade routes still being a factor in the mechanism that might still happen.

 

[Novicenoble]

If you are considering removal of gold income from shrines, please remember to adjust gold spending and beaker requirements for techs. Shrine income is very important in case of some civs.

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Two minor suggestions:

As the AI rarely settles Brest (in 600 AD-start at least) add it to the starting map.

Brittany could be historical area for France (so it would not auto-flip to France at start) and England and would become french core once France reaches Renaissance, if it is in French hands.


Amsterdam (or another city on that tile) could spawn earlier or even be part of the 600 AD setup. The region was an important economic center before the dutch rebelled against the spanish as part of the HRE.
(Could auto-flip when the dutch spawn without chance to fight them as with the mughals capital in India.)

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, but I would argue that all civs with shrines in their area of influence are overpowered and hard to balance tech wise. I've given some of them appropriate modifiers to counter this, so it would mostly come down to reverting those to their original state.

Of course, "shrines generate money" could be one of those "religion abilities" I mentioned, where appropriate (Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism ...).

 

[Leoreth]

Amsterdam (or another city on that tile) could spawn earlier or even be part of the 600 AD setup. The region was an important economic center before the dutch rebelled against the spanish as part of the HRE.
(Could auto-flip when the dutch spawn without chance to fight them as with the mughals capital in India.)

That's a good idea, although for further accuracy that city should probably be Brugge.

 

[Manuss]

Talking about the religion matter, in Civ V religions in a city are based on population: if a city has, for example, 15 population there can be 10 Catholic population but also 5 islamic population. I think that would apply well in the mod.