Suggestions and Requests

[Leoreth]

The Chinese UP is not unique in that it expires.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

The Chinese UP is not unique in that it expires.

True. The Greek, Mayan, Viking, Moorish, and Italian UPs also expire (beginning of the Medieval period for Greeks and Mayans, beginning of the Renaissance for the Moors and Vikings, and beginning of the Industrial Era for the Italians).

And you could say that the Egyptian, Babylonian, and Dutch UPs expire indirectly, as the Egyptians can eventually get the techs for their starting civs, The Babylonians only have a few extra starting techs, and the Dutch UP depends entirely on the Trading Company, which expires with Assembly Line.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

True. The Greek, Mayan, Viking, Moorish, and Italian UPs also expire (beginning of the Medieval period for Greeks and Mayans, beginning of the Renaissance for the Moors and Vikings, and beginning of the Industrial Era for the Italians).

And you could say that the Egyptian, Babylonian, and Dutch UPs expire indirectly, as the Egyptians can eventually get the techs for their starting civs, The Babylonians only have a few extra starting techs, and the Dutch UP depends entirely on the Trading Company, which expires with Assembly Line.

I have a big problem with the Maya and Italy ones in particular, and I honestly share the same sentiment for most of these.

Most of those civs will collapse for one reason of another, scheduled bad stability, spawning neighbors, etc. so I question the wisdom of making their UPs expire.
If anything, they're just limitations imposed on the player.

 

[Leoreth]

If anything, they're just limitations imposed on the player.

Of course they are, because players generally don't collapse.

Are you really arguing in favor of imposing more stability constraints on the player? I doubt that'd be fun.

You are right that if we were only concerned with the AI, we could let these bonuses continue into further eras, although in many cases the limitations are also grounded in historical reasons. That is not only because of stability, but also because most of these effects (techs, great people) tend to have a snowballing effect that the player can much more effectively utilize to unbalance the game in the long run.

 

[Tigranes]

The Sultans and their personal influence degenerating, the Janissaries proceeded to emulate the Praetorian Guards, became wielders of power, regarding the Sultan as a tyrant and a mere puppet to be placed and kept on the throne as long as convenient to them. Their numbers were now enormous, and in the seventeenth century are said to have reached 100,000. Some twelve Sultans were deposed and mostly murdered by them. It would be tedious to recall all their acts of insubordination. Throughout Turkish history they were made use of as instruments by unscrupulous and ambitious statesmen, and in the 17th century they had become a praetorian guard in the worst sense of the word.

We simply cannot insist on Istanbul being the most peaceful city on the map in 1700 start! Even without Blue Mosque 25 vs 13 is more than enough for Ottoman capital to grow and stay as one of the largest city in the world. Why should Blue Mosque be Muslim-Orthodox wonder? Instead we could have Muslim-Hindu wonder or Confucian-Buddhist wonder to enable world's largest city in India or China/Thailand/Japan.

Also can we please replace Roman roads in 1700 AD with normal once? Modern map just does not look right with them.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Are you really arguing in favor of imposing more stability constraints on the player? I doubt that'd be fun.

No. I'm not. I merely observed that all of the civs with expiring UPs, with the exception of the Dutch, already face those penalties and the human does too.
Why restrain the human with the expiration of the UP if they'll overcome their expiration dates?

What I'm really after is just a clean separation of AI and human, the standards we hold both to and the fact that as we've seen many times,
changing an aspect to benefit a human makes the AI incredibly powerful while changing something for the detriment of an AI because of the previous problem hurts the human experience.
If possible, a clean divorce between the two sets would solve quite a bit.

Guild Wars 2, an MMO, helped to pioneer an idea that has plagued numerous other games from FPS (Destiny) to strategy (EUIV) and other games.
It has different stats for equipment, precisely because there are different expectations being leveled at the PVE level and the PVP level.

I would like to see a clean break for civs depending on who is controlling them as well, in a similar manner because modifying or altering a
civilization would no longer have such an incredible ripple effect on everything else (the difficulty of other civs, human experience, AI performance) then.

 

[Leoreth]

We simply cannot insist on Istanbul being the most peaceful city on the map in 1700 start! Even without Blue Mosque 25 vs 13 is more than enough for Ottoman capital to grow and stay as one of the largest city in the world. Why should Blue Mosque be Muslim-Orthodox wonder? Instead we could have Muslim-Hindu wonder or Confucian-Buddhist wonder to enable world's largest city in India or China/Thailand/Japan.

You're right that that would be more appropriate.

Do you have an idea for a new Blue Mosque effect, or what it should trade effects with?

Why restrain the human with the expiration of the UP if they'll overcome their expiration dates?

Because it's necessary for balance.

What I'm really after is just a clean separation of AI and human, the standards we hold both to and the fact that as we've seen many times,
changing an aspect to benefit a human makes the AI incredibly powerful while changing something for the detriment of an AI because of the previous problem hurts the human experience.
If possible, a clean divorce between the two sets would solve quite a bit.

If that's what you're arguing for, the only reasonable consequence I can see is having these types of UP expire for humans but not the AI.

 

[trevor]

I was originally going to the post this in the graph thread but not having an end-of-game graph to share this seems better: tech rates are out of control!

Loading a 1700AD game, England is 3 turns away from Steam Power in 1793 & this was after I added 3000 beakers to the cost! Would adding a new row of 19thC techs make sense?

 

[Shadow Warlord]

I was originally going to the post this in the graph thread but not having an end-of-game graph to share this seems better: tech rates are out of control!

Loading a 1700AD game, England is 3 turns away from Steam Power in 1793 & this was after I added 3000 beakers to the cost! Would adding a new row of 19thC techs make sense?

I can get behind this. At the very least, we should make it so more modern units like infantry and MGs appear later and the firearm transition is played out more gradually.

 

[Leoreth]

I was originally going to the post this in the graph thread but not having an end-of-game graph to share this seems better: tech rates are out of control!

Loading a 1700AD game, England is 3 turns away from Steam Power in 1793 & this was after I added 3000 beakers to the cost! Would adding a new row of 19thC techs make sense?

Is that on one of the recent revisions?

 

[trevor]

924 indeed.

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

Do you have an idea for a new Blue Mosque effect, or what it should trade effects with?

Harmandir Sahib?

 

[Leoreth]

924 indeed.

Okay, so that is probably a consequence of the modifier changes I've made recently. Will run some tests to see how the game behaves in general.

 

[Tigranes]

You're right that that would be more appropriate.

Do you have an idea for a new Blue Mosque effect, or what it should trade effects with?

It can have the same effect (no angry faces) and help Japan as Zōjō-ji temple. Together with Kan'ei-ji, during the Edo period Zōjō-ji was the Tokugawa's family temple. Tokugawa Ieyasu had the temple moved, first to Hibiya, then in 1590, at the time of expansion of Edo Castle, to its present location in Tokyo. Japanese capital is the world's largest city now, and it was the largest in 1700s. Buddhism and Tea can be pre-req. This wonder can help Thailand as well, if they build it, or establish large city in China or Korea. This wonder can also be important part in Buddhist religious victory (greatest approval during the 100 turns).

 

[Atreju]

Has the UN votes bug already been tried to solve?In my current game (current SVN version) the votes are still counted wrong.

 

[srpt]

Bombards, Heavy Swordsmen and Huscarls require Copper or the Iron resource, but Swordsmen, Siege Elephants (Bombard replacements) and Samurai (Heavy Swordsmen replacements) only require Iron.
I.e. Bombards, Heavy Swordsmen and Huscarls should only be able to be built with Iron not with Copper.

early cannons were always bronze. the tech to make iron ones came later. I think it would be cool if bombards required copper only. it would give copper more value through that time period and iron is such a dominant resource in the game anyway.

 

[Leoreth]

Has the UN votes bug already been tried to solve?In my current game (current SVN version) the votes are still counted wrong.

Must have overlooked this, how are they counted wrong? Can you give an example, prefereably with save?

early cannons were always bronze. the tech to make iron ones came later. I think it would be cool if bombards required copper only. it would give copper more value through that time period and iron is such a dominant resource in the game anyway.

Interesting idea. However the consequence might be that civs that historically had gunpowder artillery in the Renaissance would end up without it then.

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

Hey, it would ensure one thing: Cyprus would always be settled.

 

[Tigranes]

What I genuinely hate:

Time and time again civs coming to offer a map for map trade. I always decline and the requests just keep coming dozens of times in a single game, the trading screen opening eating up time for something that is completely pointless from the start.

Inspired by this I want to re-voice my map suggestions again: please eliminate map trading altogether!

Problem: Emperors engaging in petty map trading trying to squeeze 5 golds there and here, and always worrying that we could have been missing on map trades is unrealistic, irritating and adds absolutely no value in any department. It is frustratingly time consuming both during your own turn and in between turns, with AI taking time to trade maps. Other than -- that's what they came up in vanila -- there is no reason to keep map trading alive.

Solution:
Kings were known to send embassies to far away countries. Any land unit admitted to foreign capital can create an embassies in respective capitals. Before Paper this grants mutual map knowledge for two empires, updated every 10 turns. After Paper (obtained by any of the parties) civs know each other's world map automatically (updated every 10 turns). Wars destroy embassies and automatic map sharing.

Additional Considerations:
For the most of the history open borders do not mean you can move you army across other king's land. While we are fixing this embassy and map thing why don't we establish some realistic rules about crossing foreign lands.

1. Open borders grant free passage for non-military units and any ships.
2. Defensive pacts allow military unit passage.
3. Reintroduce permanent alliances in the late game (can be a world wonder initiated) for things like European Union.

 

[Leoreth]

Permanent alliances are basically out of the question, most RFC features are implemented in a way that ignores their existence.