Suggestions and Requests

[Leoreth]

A Yue civ would certainly be interesting.

 

[citis]

Use Kevin MacLeod's "Action" for Rome

 

[DC123456789]

I honestly think that one of the biggest missed opportunities is Southern China. A Cantonese or Southern Chinese civilization would be a great addition because China has actually rather rarely been entirely unified throughout history, even today there is the PRC and Taiwan. Much like India, with the addition of the Tamils in DoC, the addition of the Cantonese or Southern Chinese civilization would be a great way to add to the gameplay. As it stands Guangzhou and Hangzhou are simply independent cities easily subsumed and they don't contribute much to the gameplay whatsoever. I think that the lack of civilizations in Greater China is kind of disappointing. I'd say it's more pressing than adding more European civilizations to an already crowded region and with the future expansion of China with the new map this could be a great opportunity to add it.

Capital at Guangzhou or Fukien.

UHVs (maybe):
-Establish a certain number of colonies in SE Asia (Singapore, Manila, Jakarta, etc) or North America, seeing as the vast majority of overseas Chinese historically have come from Southern China, Canton or the surrounding region.
-Acquire a certain amount of gold through trade/piracy since Guangzhou and later Hong Kong have been major trade centres in the region and Canton is historically the wealthiest region in Greater China.
-Ensure no European colonies in Southern China and Southeast Asia in ?1890?

Unique Ability (maybe):
-Not sure what to call it but, provides extra food or trade from ocean tiles.

UU (maybe):
Pirate junk (replaces Privateer): with enhanced gold returns, which would synergize with the gold goal, or maybe the ability to avoid detection?
another idea: Hokchiu (replaces Settler): settles cities with extra trade, culture or population or maybe more maritime buildings

Not sure about the UB for Cantonese, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

What polities exactly is this supposed to represent? Southern China was rarely independent after the Chinese conquest, and certainly not during the time periods that you're focusing on.

 

[merijn_v1]

This is from the Realism Invictus manual:

South China:
This civilization is an attempt to fix (or at least alleviate) one of the most common misconceptions a Westerner has about Chinese history. It is very tempting for an outsider to see Chinese history as the history of China, the one, the true and the only. In many historical eras, nothing could be farther from reality. At many different points throughout its history, China was fragmented into several independent states, more often than not each with culture as distinctive – or even more so - as, say Spain and England (which, by analogy, we could happily call a “European civilization”, along with Germany, Rome, Scandinavia and so on), numbering from two to dozens. Remarkably, many of these divisions went along North/South geographical lines.

Therefore, South China is our attempt to show more of China’s diverse historical situations: the Warring States period, Three Kingdoms, Southern & Northern Dynasties, the struggle between Song and Liao, between Yuan and Ming, between Nationalists and Communists in XX century – and a lot of others. While we understand that having two civilizations also limits us a lot (note, for instance, the “Three Kingdoms” period above), but it is still much, much better than treating China as a single monolithic entity throughout all of its history.

North Chinese roster, where it is different from South Chinese, draws upon Northern Dynasties, Jin (Jurchen) Dynasty, Qing Dynasty, Beiyang Government and People’s Republic of China, while the same units for South China are drawn, respectively, from Southern Dynasties, Song Dynasty, Ming Dynasty, Nanjing Government and Republic of China.

 

[hnrysml]

I think we should ask the opinion of the Chinese members of the forum, since your quote from RI emphasises Westerners' misconceptions

 

[TJDowling]

I think we should ask the opinion of the Chinese members of the forum, since your quote from RI emphasises Westerners' misconceptions

Absolutely, I am not Chinese but live in Hong Kong and have studied a lot of modern Chinese history so I'm interested in this topic. The Realism Invictus justification is exactly what I was thinking though better worded. I find that China is a bit too powerful in DoC and could use some competition in Greater China other than the Mongols.

If the focus is more towards the Post-Mongol Period then maybe if could be a conditional spawn on the collapse of Northern China. It would be very interesting to play a more outward/trade oriented China and see which, if any, wins out. In reality imperialism and pseudo-isolationism won out but that was not for lack of trade and exploration, largely conducted from the south.

As far as ancient or pre-Opium War Chinese history I'm a bit shaky on the history. If the focus is more towards pre-Mongol era, as the Yue maybe the UHVs could be more like "control a certain number or %age of cities in Southern China by 500AD", "control a certain number of cities in SE Asia (North Vietnam was at times in the sphere of influence of the Southern China)" and maybe "Have a certain number of culture points" or "establish X number of colonies outside China by 700AD" It's not perfect because most of the settlers/explorers in this period were Han Chinese but were from Southern regions.

 

[TJDowling]

What polities exactly is this supposed to represent? Southern China was rarely independent after the Chinese conquest, and certainly not during the time periods that you're focusing on.

Southern China was frequently independent but you're not wrong that the unique factors I focused on don't really match with periods of independence unless you count Hong Kong under Britain as being independent of China. The potential unique unit Hokchiu (settler) is the closest match, while it is certainly of Southern origin, from Fujian, it was during the Tang Dynasty shortly after the dissolution of a string of Southern dynasties. China was a vast empire and the Southern parts were administered from a very great distance. Despite very much being part of the imperial structure it's reasonable to assume that a great deal of what happened in Fujian during the Tang Dynasty was done independent of significant Northern contributions. I think the historic legacy is there that Southern China was predominantly interested in sea-faring, trade and exploration while Northern China was predominantly interested in consolidating influence over it's land empire, fighting the hordes of Inner Asian barbarians and collecting taxes. Does it warrant two civs? Maybe not but it's worth considering. The Hokchiu settler is a loose match but maybe there are better options which would be great to hear.

I think the question is less of historical accuracy but addressing the problem that while China has most frequently been dominated by Han Chinese culture it has actually relatively rarely been unified, even up to the present day. There have been numerous periods with multiple dynasties Northern and Southern, numerous civil wars, uprisings, rebellions and more than a few cases where non-Han dynasties seized power. The Qing dynasty was after all a foreign dynasty and that is relatively recent history. Whether or not there is a specific civilization Yue, Fukien, Hokkien, Manchu, whatever within Greater China that challenges the main Chinese civilization is beside the point to me. The fact that China has had such a tumultuous history warrants having some greater challenge from within it's historical boundaries than the Mongols, who quickly collapse due to overextension. I think a Southern civ, possibly represented by the Yue (as it is historically and geographically distinct), as a recurrent threat to the stability of a unified China is probably the best bet. The reason I don't suggest a North-eastern entity is because the space is already pretty crowded with the Mongols, Koreans and potentially the Japanese.

All that said, I see a pre-Mongol Southern Chinese civ as having the odds pretty heavily stacked against them. Having it be difficult to expand within Southern China and even facing the threat of invasion by Northern China. Balancing the costs of defending it's territory while gearing towards exterior exploration would be sufficiently difficult to represent the real problems the Yue faced against Han China. It could also represent the problems that the Tang dynasty faced splitting resources on it's territorial possessions and exploratory/diplomatic efforts. I don't know about anyone else but I rarely even get started on exploration when playing as China because I'm so bogged down preparing for invasions. Having a Southern Chinese civ fulfil that important aspect of Chinese history would be interesting, considering exploration was conducted from the South, if not by an independent political power.

 

[citis]

Maybe destabilse China, so they have to fight with independents most of the time would do the trick.

 

[DC123456789]

Southern China was frequently independent but you're not wrong that the unique factors I focused on don't really match with periods of independence unless you count Hong Kong under Britain as being independent of China. The potential unique unit Hokchiu (settler) is the closest match, while it is certainly of Southern origin, from Fujian, it was during the Tang Dynasty shortly after the dissolution of a string of Southern dynasties. China was a vast empire and the Southern parts were administered from a very great distance. Despite very much being part of the imperial structure it's reasonable to assume that a great deal of what happened in Fujian during the Tang Dynasty was done independent of significant Northern contributions. I think the historic legacy is there that Southern China was predominantly interested in sea-faring, trade and exploration while Northern China was predominantly interested in consolidating influence over it's land empire, fighting the hordes of Inner Asian barbarians and collecting taxes. Does it warrant two civs? Maybe not but it's worth considering. The Hokchiu settler is a loose match but maybe there are better options which would be great to hear.

I think the question is less of historical accuracy but addressing the problem that while China has most frequently been dominated by Han Chinese culture it has actually relatively rarely been unified, even up to the present day. There have been numerous periods with multiple dynasties Northern and Southern, numerous civil wars, uprisings, rebellions and more than a few cases where non-Han dynasties seized power. The Qing dynasty was after all a foreign dynasty and that is relatively recent history. Whether or not there is a specific civilization Yue, Fukien, Hokkien, Manchu, whatever within Greater China that challenges the main Chinese civilization is beside the point to me. The fact that China has had such a tumultuous history warrants having some greater challenge from within it's historical boundaries than the Mongols, who quickly collapse due to overextension. I think a Southern civ, possibly represented by the Yue (as it is historically and geographically distinct), as a recurrent threat to the stability of a unified China is probably the best bet. The reason I don't suggest a North-eastern entity is because the space is already pretty crowded with the Mongols, Koreans and potentially the Japanese.

All that said, I see a pre-Mongol Southern Chinese civ as having the odds pretty heavily stacked against them. Having it be difficult to expand within Southern China and even facing the threat of invasion by Northern China. Balancing the costs of defending it's territory while gearing towards exterior exploration would be sufficiently difficult to represent the real problems the Yue faced against Han China. It could also represent the problems that the Tang dynasty faced splitting resources on it's territorial possessions and exploratory/diplomatic efforts. I don't know about anyone else but I rarely even get started on exploration when playing as China because I'm so bogged down preparing for invasions. Having a Southern Chinese civ fulfil that important aspect of Chinese history would be interesting, considering exploration was conducted from the South, if not by an independent political power.

There's still the big problem of the lack of any sort of political continuity, if we're going by actual polities rather than a general sense of "autonomous parts of the empire", which was hardly unique to China. Generously, we have Nanyue (204 BC - 111 BC), Eastern Wu (222 - 280), the Southern Dynasties (420 - 589) and the Southern Han (917- 971) (I'm excluding instances like the Eastern Jin and the Southern Song, since they are much better represented by the normal Chinese civ with the north being controlled by barbarians/independents/etc., as well as any of the short-lived "warlord" states in inter-dynasty transitions), which doesn't really lend itself to a coherent civ ingame. I understand why you want to have more Chinese civs but I just don't see a coherent way to split it (geographically - temporally is of course another matter) in way that would make sense both historically and gameplay-wise.

Maybe destabilse China, so they have to fight with independents most of the time would do the trick.

Honestly, this is a much better way to represent China's many periods of division; realistically China should be constantly collapsing and respawning soon afterwards, although obviously this wouldn't make for very gameplay in a mod with a wide a scope as DoC.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Any reason why a civilization that voluntarily becomes a vassal keeps their original name whereas one that capitulates doesn't?

 

[Leoreth]

Yes.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Yes.

Why don't you want to reveal that reason?

 

[Leoreth]

Your question relies on a false presupposition.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Your question relies on a false presupposition.

There's an implied follow-up question that was asked, which is "What is the reason?", because answering "Yes" implies that this is intended.

 

[TJDowling]

There's still the big problem of the lack of any sort of political continuity, if we're going by actual polities rather than a general sense of "autonomous parts of the empire", which was hardly unique to China. Generously, we have Nanyue (204 BC - 111 BC), Eastern Wu (222 - 280), the Southern Dynasties (420 - 589) and the Southern Han (917- 971) (I'm excluding instances like the Eastern Jin and the Southern Song, since they are much better represented by the normal Chinese civ with the north being controlled by barbarians/independents/etc., as well as any of the short-lived "warlord" states in inter-dynasty transitions), which doesn't really lend itself to a coherent civ ingame. I understand why you want to have more Chinese civs but I just don't see a coherent way to split it (geographically - temporally is of course another matter) in way that would make sense both historically and gameplay-wise.

Okay but is it even possible for the Chinese civ to exist with just the Southern cities as they are all or mostly outside of the core? Isn't that pretty much instant collapse if a civ loses it's core? I mean to me having a continuous polity is nice and all but I don't think it's absolutely necessary in this case. As I said, I see the odds being heavily stacked against Southern China as they were historically, like survival past 700AD would be difficult and there would be chance of respawn if China is sufficiently unstable or if there is a collapse of Northern China. I still think it's worth inclusion,there are some kinks to work out and there'd be some significant work deciding on appropriate names for the polities in different periods.

 

[DC123456789]

Okay but is it even possible for the Chinese civ to exist with just the Southern cities as they are all or mostly outside of the core? Isn't that pretty much instant collapse if a civ loses it's core? I mean to me having a continuous polity is nice and all but I don't think it's absolutely necessary in this case. As I said, I see the odds being heavily stacked against Southern China as they were historically, like survival past 700AD would be difficult and there would be chance of respawn if China is sufficiently unstable or if there is a collapse of Northern China. I still think it's worth inclusion,there are some kinks to work out and there'd be some significant work deciding on appropriate names for the polities in different periods.

Both the Southern Song and the Eastern Jin controlled between one third and one half of the current (starting) Chinese core, and both had their capitals at or near Nanjing. Note that the Eastern Wu and the Southern Dynasties did as well.

 

[soul-breathing]

It seems that TJDowling advices to add a Cantonese or Hakka civ in South China. But in history, Cantonese and Hakka people immigrated from North China(from Qin Dynasty, last for nearly 2000 years), they actually are all same nation(Han nationality).

If it's necessary to add a civ in China, I think a Jurchen(Qing Dynasty) civ(as a minority dynasty, just like India and Mughal) or a Modern China civ(just like Aztec and Mexico, or Persia and Iran) may be great. I'm sure this two choices are more popular than South China civ among Chinese players, because we've discussed that for many times on our forum.

If it's necessary to add a South China civ, I suggest not to add it directly in DoC mod. We can make it like Polynesia and Harappa, only spawn when human players use it.

 

[TJDowling]

It seems that TJDowling advices to add a Cantonese or Hakka civ in South China. But in history, Cantonese and Hakka people immigrated from North China(from Qin Dynasty, last for nearly 2000 years), they actually are all same nation(Han nationality).

If it's necessary to add a civ in China, I think a Jurchen(Qing Dynasty) civ(as a minority dynasty, just like India and Mughal) or a Modern China civ(just like Aztec and Mexico, or Persia and Iran) may be great. I'm sure this two choices are more popular than South China civ among Chinese players, because we've discussed that for many times on our forum.

If it's necessary to add a South China civ, I suggest not to add it directly in DoC mod. We can make it like Polynesia and Harappa, only spawn when human players use it.

Thanks for the input. I was thinking Yue might be more appropriate than "Cantonese" or "Hakka" afterall, as the Yue were culturally, linguistically and geographically distinct and were gradually (though not totally assimilated). But yeah, I actually had the Harappa in mind when I was thinking about this as far as having the odds stacked against them. I hadn't realized they only spawned if chosen, as I rarely play the 3000BC scenario. That might be a more appropriate way for a Southern Chinese civ, only starting in the 3000BC scenario and only when the player picks them.

You're basically right that from a historic perspective Jurchens are a more appropriate choice. The Yue have a shaky starting date, and continuous Yue dynasties only go up until about 2-100BC so the UHVs would have to be before that time. Unless we adapted them to be just "Southern" dynasties past that point. Then in the post-Han period there is about 300-500 years where there are often North/South dynasties. Even though these were Han dynasties they were separate and still distinct in many ways. In that case, UHVs could go up to about 700AD at most.

My only problem with a Jurchen civ is from a gameplay perspective. It is in a crowded region and if it grows at all it literally replaces China, so it seems like there isn't much point to adding it. Whereas Southern China is on the fringes of the empire so there is room for both to exist for at least a short time. Playing as them would be challenging, but fun. If they are included whether the player picks them or not it would be an interesting barrier to unifying China in the early game because as it is China simply has to settle the territory, which is (from a historical perspective) not totally accurate.

In modern times a Southern Chinese civ probably wouldn't exist barring the collapse of the North or maybe civil war but could respawn as something else... ?

I understand this isn't an alt-history simulator but it's also not a history documentary. The history need not be perfect. To pretend that any of the civilizations perfectly represent a successive line of polities is a bit absurd. So is pretending that Southern China does not and has not possessed unique cultural/linguistic characteristics that have differentiated it from the North. The line of political succession of Southern Chinese polities is not perfectly continuous in its history but isn't that the point of the scenario, the rise and fall.

Interesting thought, but a bit crazy and probably difficult. If there were two Chinese civs there could be the conditional spawning of the RoC or PRC in modern times, say if China is at war and unstable. But that's another thing altogether.

Also, to the question Jurchen or Yue? Why can't we have both. /shrugs/ ... I know, I know, there's limited space for new civs.

Edit: I just noticed you mentioned adding a Modern China civ. I like it!
SORRY SIGNIFICANT EDITS

 

[soul-breathing]

@TJDowling

In fact we had made a Jurchen(Qing Dynasty) modmod in DoC 1.13, about 2 years ago.

Download: https://pan.baidu.com/s/1c1pab1u

Unzip to and cover Doc 1.13 documents.

Screenshots

Spoiler :

The game is difficult at 600ad, because China is too powerful even in regent. But balance in 1700ad scenerio.

At the meantime we also have Song and Ming Dynasty modmod. Can't find them this moment.

 

[TaqinusIV]

Hi guys!

Two questions:

1. I'm working on doing some tests on the vassals collapsing-thing, which I talked about a couple weeks ago. I was wondering where I can find a list of stability effects and if there is a way to see a civs stability in the Worldbuilder? That would go a long way.

2. So I think everybody agrees that playing as the Brits (English whatever) is absolutely amazing. There is just so much stuff to do, shipping redcoats 'round the world, building an empire on which the sun never sets and all that good stuff. It got me thinking on gunboat diplomacy and this quote by a British who said: 'The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the British Navy.'

Now this got me thinking about a naval upgrade that could add an immense amount of flavour and depth to amphibious combat that isn't in the game as far as I know: 'Landing Craft Upgrade - Units landed don't lose any movement points.' Landed units can move as if it was the start of their turn. This upgrade should only be accessible on by second or third level craft so it is reserved for those who really focus on naval warfare (The Brits get easy access if they build Trafalgar and it would be nice if the Vikings had a way of easily getting it too, maybe additional unique building bonus). Though naval units have their uses, mostly they are ancillary to land armies. The opportunities this upgrade creates are a legitimate naval buff: you get rewarded for having a strong navy and penalized for not having one. Here are some possible opportunities:

1. Raiding
This will become a real interesting option. I you land units with two movement range you can land, pillage or take a worker and load up again. Even if you are the weaker civ, you still have an opportunity to do damage if you specialize. The Vikings are the best known historic example of course, but naval raiding parties do appear all throughout history.

2. Marathon/Rule Britannia/The Shores of Tripoli
Following a naval borbardment you land your troops and take the city, without getting hit by cannons yourself and getting bogged down or reinforments reacting to your landing. This way the army and the navy synergize to become a devastating weapon. It's not free, it does require training, but it allows historically small armies like the Brits to surprise and overwhelm the enemy. To me the planning of an invasion maybe the best part of the game and a quick joint naval-army strike adds to the joy of coordinating a grand attack.

3. Overall flexibility
Landing craft will lend just that extra bit of flexibility to a well-kept navy. That extra move can go a long by allowing you to take a nice defensive position, commando units can immediately move on up and take out strategic resources or roads. Think Operation Overlord and American marines landing in the Middle East to take out an oil well and get the hell out of there.

Drawbacks:
- AI won't love it.
- Hard to defend against raid. (Though that's kind of the point. The vikings were notoriously hard to catch. These pinpricks also force the enemy to give in or bring the fight to you.)
- Will make the British too awesome.

So yeah, would really like to know what you guys think!