Suggestions and Requests

[Theophilos]

I just had a random idea when I tried 3x failing to spreading catholicism to moscow when they are pagan:

I see that catholicism is recorded as "none" in kiev and ruthenia area. Historically, this is where a reunion occured, if one looks up the Union of Brest, and also Isadore of Kiev. Perhaps this area of Ruthenia can have catholicism as "minority" or "periphery"? even today the roman catholics have sway in these areas resulting from these unions, and influences of jesuits long ago, especially during the poland-lithuanian commonwealth influence.

Also, in Novgorod, the russian chronicles record this place as being fallen to latinism (probably just a smear). There is also the legend of the white cowl, which claimed that the mitre of the bishop of novgorod came from the pope of Rome, and that is why it is white. (but from what I can tell this legendary history was just made up to try to elevate this bishopric to higher status in relation to others). It is also recorded in the writings of Sigismund von Herberstein, that in Novgorod that this bishopric had a mitre in the same style as the west, as opposed to the other bishoprics russia, who had a black cowl with drooping "dog ears". This is not much evidence to say that catholicism had much sway in novgorod, but I think it can warrant a minority status to make it easier to have this "alt-history" to be possible, maybe? Seeing as in thesse areas islam is "minority" too, it doesnt' seem big stretch

I also thought that in this area:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion#/media/File:Taiping2.PNG

protestantism can be a minority or periphery religion allowed, to attempt in some way to perhaps simulate this event.

edit:

thinking about it some more, I guess one would still have to be careful not to put it very far in russia or too strong, or else it might make it very likely to cause them to convert to catholicism often (through spread of religion through trade routes) , since russia is probably going to meet catholic countries before they meet byzantiens. (im guessing)

 

[Tratatushki]

What about the earlier start of the netherlands?

 

[bluepotato]

Apparently we've managed to fix the scenario EOL conversion problem in Civilizations Reborn, so I'd suggest doing the same for base DoC as well. It only involves adding a .gitattributes file with a single line, then converting all scenario files to use DOS line endings and committing that. I can make a pull request if that helps.

 

[MrFeline]

This may be somewhere in this subforum, but I was unable to find it. Is there somewhere I can download a blank version of the RFCDoC map to use for a personal Scenario project? Also, is there a way for me to integrate the terrain and resource changes into a personal mod?

 

[merijn_v1]

This may be somewhere in this subforum, but I was unable to find it. Is there somewhere I can download a blank version of the RFCDoC map to use for a personal Scenario project? Also, is there a way for me to integrate the terrain and resource changes into a personal mod?

You can get the new map via git or via this link: https://github.com/dguenms/Dawn-of-Civilization/tree/map. To integrate the new resources and terrain types, you need to copy the art files and merge the new XML entries to your mod.

 

[MrFeline]

You can get the new map via git or via this link: https://github.com/dguenms/Dawn-of-Civilization/tree/map. To integrate the new resources and terrain types, you need to copy the art files and merge the new XML entries to your mod.

Thank you so much!

 

[Enyavar]

The current Inca UHV counter-incentivizes historical play:
The historical good-faith approach would be: conquer the region while researching Law. Granaries/Intis/Fisherboats/Jails and a bit of military as build orders. Build Machu Pichu as early as possible (e.g. 1425), and go for Engineering (Tambo prereq, e.g. 1460) next. Finish Tambos (eg. 1485) and road (e.g. 1455) by 1500, then amass mucho goldo for 1550. I was able to scrap together 1500 gold, pursuing 100% wealth after 1460.
I attached a savegame with my savegame: With perfect micromanagement within my strategy, +250 might have been possible.

However, the 2nd UHV goal of 2500 gold in year 1550 is ludicrous even when playing in the standard difficulty (not Monarch, the one below that). To achieve that one, the player apparently needs to research Currency instead of Law, never build the Machu Pichu and make Trade Missions to the Aztecs (didn't try that yet, the guide from 2018 might be outdated). While that is certainly a way to go, it feels weird to me.

I'd like to have the 2nd Incan UHV changed to "Build the Machu Pichu and have 1500 gold by 1550".

 

[Enyavar]

Some turns later:
Also, I regard this neighborly French (see screenshot) visit as extremely unfriendly: They are meeting my street-building Worker-Scouts in Brazil and instantly march their army through the jungle towards Cuzco??

Wasn't there some mechanism that prevents a Conquistador event when the contact is made outside of your state borders?

...

Edit: About the 3rd UHV, I didn't yet take a stab at that, but how is it supposed to be possible? I mean, between 1580 (French and Portuguese begin settling in SA) and 1700 there are only 24 turns, and it's nearly impossible to bridge the tech gap. Would that mean Zerg-rushing the Spanish/French/Portuguese/Dutch colonies and then casting them aside as independents, or should I have settled the entire coast long before the Europeans arrive? Can the Inca control entire SA with a medieval core that allows at best three cities?

 

[DanLT3]

I agree the second UHV for Inca is hard. Though I only tried once of Paragon/Marathon difficulty I gave up, since I barely managed to research Engineering in time in order to whip the five Tambo's just at the 1500 AD deadline.
No time left to research Currency, build Market and pop even one GM (I suspect you need two) before 1550 AD.
I suppose the third UHV will be the easy one (in comparison).

 

[Kewlipo]

There are a few UHVs that rely on researching a certain number of technologies before anyone else, like Japan and Germany. I actually sort of enjoy these objectives, they make for min-max gameplay to squeeze out as much science as possible from your empire.

However these goals are almost always impossible unless you rush an army to try to stop the tech leader, which is usually USA or England. These civs almost always develop a run-away lead with science. Have there been discussions as to ways that they could be tone downed? I know tech spread addresses this issue in a way, but it is not enough to slow them down (especially so with UHVs that rely on the leader not being light-years ahead in tech).

I don't know what strengths these civs have that could possibly be nerfed without making them disproportionately weak overall. USA and England should be strong tech civs, but not 10 techs ahead of the nearest competition. Does anyone have ideas? Forgive me if this has already been addressed.

 

[Kewlipo]

Since there haven't been any suggestions, I have tried to do some investigating myself.

For England:
A lot of the issue is tied very closely to England's passive and some of the buildings associated with Protestantism.

Lemma: Reducing pre-inflation costs becomes exceptionally powerful in the later game (>1700)
At face value, the "Faraway Cities incur no extra Maintenance" seems strong, but not too strong. However, by 1700, that passive is actually one of the most powerful in the game due to one reason: inflation. At that point in the game (1700s and beyond), inflation starts to balloon costs to a ridiculous level; anything that reduces the original sources of expense (City Maintenance, in our case) becomes extremely strong.

The English passive creates a ceiling for "Distance from Palace" costs at around 1.2 GPT. What this implies:

• 5 cities in North America normally equates to about 30 GPT in "Distance from Palace" costs. However, with a 120% inflation rate in the 1700s, that original 30 GPT cost becomes 30 + 1.2(30) = 66 GPT. Subtract what the English are actually spending: 66 - (6 + 1.2(6)) = 52.8 GPT saved.
• However, the English have usually by this time have built the Trading Company and taken ~5 cities in India. The normal cost in 1700 (at average "Distance from Palace" cost ~ 7.5) would be around 37.5 + 1.2(37.5) = 82.5 GPT. Subtract actual English expenditure: 82.5 - (6 + 1.2(6)) = 69.3 GPT saved.
• Throw in ~4 more cities (there are usually more!) in Australia and South Africa. At normal costs (with average "Distance from Palace" cost ~ 7) that is 28 + 1.2(28) = 61.6 GPT. Subtract actual English expenditure: 61.6 - (4.8 + 1.2(4.8)) = 51.0 GPT saved.

So, at 1700 inflation costs, England is saving about 173.1 GPT (or more!) with their passive which means they can greatly increase science spending. Additionally, England's passive becomes even stronger as the game goes on due to increasing inflation.

However, that is not the only thing the English have going for them. They also get first pick at some of the most useful wonders in the game, of which most are restricted to Protestants (thereby reducing competition for them). Here are a few key wonders that accelerate their research, in order of availability:

• Saint Thomas Church (+2 Happiness in All Cities) - This one isn't actually that powerful in my experience, but it might be very useful for AI that don't manage their cities well.
• Oxford University (+1 Science per Specialist in All Cities) - Extremely strong science boost. English almost always get this wonder.
• The Bourse (+2 Free Merchant) - Intended for the Dutch, the English almost always snag this wonder before the Dutch can even finish researching Economics. Combined with the England's interaction with the lemma, wonders like The Bourse make 90-100% science spending possible.
• Bell Rock Lighthouse (+1 Trade Routes in All Coastal Cities) - Ridiculously strong for England, which has almost all coastal cities. Combined with Free Enterprise and 90-100% science spending equates to a massive boost in science.
• Westminster Palace (Free Courthouse in Every City) - Might as well just make City Maintenance costs equal to zero. Combined with the lemma and their passive, the English are saving absolutely ridiculous amounts of GPT late game.
• There are other wonders like Abbey Mills and the Crystal Palace that are helpful for the English, but are not major contributors to the problem.

Due to their increased tech speeds, the English almost always get the free Great Scientist and Great Merchant in from Scientific Method and Economics as well.

So, these are some of the reasons that England is so far ahead in tech. I will make another post about the USA eventually, but I want to hear your thoughts on what I said and what possibly could be changed.

 

[Temujin8k]

I would also like to raise that another major contributing factor to this phenomenon is the civ modifiers, although the difference is significantly more noticeable with Japan. Currently, Japan (120) needs 50% more beakers to research the same tech as England (80) (assuming other factors constant e.g. number of cities and commerce output). Also, the Japanese UP applies only for techs already researched by others, and is only helpful for catching up and not in going for the tech lead. Furthermore, Japan's inflation rate is 1/7 higher (80) than England (70). The same can't exactly be said for Germany since they actually have a slightly better research modifier (70). Average empire size also seems to matter here, and like you said, the fact that England mostly has coastal cities—Germany has mostly inland ones, and is smaller (usually restricted to Europe). I think that England's powerful modifiers as a post-600 AD Euro civ, coupled with the facts you stated, makes for a snowballing England, especially when it manages to expand to its historical territories and remain stable.

EDIT: I don't know yet if it's the modifiers (they seem appropriate?), but it's either adjust the modifiers a bit or reduce the effect of the English UP Reference: Modifiers.py

 

[Kewlipo]

I would also like to raise that another major contributing factor to this phenomenon is the civ modifiers,

I looked at the modifiers for England when doing my analysis and disregarded them since all of the other European civs have similar ones, meaning something else was the cause of England's tech lead. However, you are very correct in Japan being hindered greatly by the science modifier, which contributes to their inability to out-tech England and USA. It would make sense to me if Japan had their 120 modifier until the Industrial era, where it would drop to 75, if possible.

 

[Temujin8k]

I see. I thought you hadn't looked at it since you didn't mention it; my bad. It's really a Euro thing, but since England tends to grow large and with its UP, it snowballs in tech. The same can't be said for Spain, which also has a big colonial empire, but needs administrative centers to mitigate maintenance costs.

 

[merijn_v1]

Adjusting modifiers can be integrated with the new period system.

 

[Kewlipo]

I have decided to try testing some solutions to the runaway science issue. I went ahead and changed the English UP (which was hidden away in CvCity.cpp, I couldn't find it ) as well as bumping the science modifier for the Americans up to 100 (temporary fix).

English UP: instead of capping the distance at 10 for calculating maintenance, the "Distance from Palace" maintenance cost is simply halved. I will report back some results after I have made some test play-throughs, to see if anything has changed. Additionally, something I forgot to mention: I play on marathon, and have my balance expectations calibrated for that. I know a lot of people prefer to play on Normal, so any solution I find might be inconsequential if it only addresses the problem on Marathon speed. I suspect that some of the runaway science lead may be associated with the English having more time to settle cities, but I am unsure.

If anyone else has any balance suggestions for me to test that may address the problem, please share. Coronavirus has given me plenty of time.

 

[Hickman888]

I have decided to try testing some solutions to the runaway science issue. I went ahead and changed the English UP (which was hidden away in CvCity.cpp, I couldn't find it ) as well as bumping the science modifier for the Americans up to 100 (temporary fix).

English UP: instead of capping the distance at 10 for calculating maintenance, the "Distance from Palace" maintenance cost is simply halved. I will report back some results after I have made some test play-throughs, to see if anything has changed. Additionally, something I forgot to mention: I play on marathon, and have my balance expectations calibrated for that. I know a lot of people prefer to play on Normal, so any solution I find might be inconsequential if it only addresses the problem on Marathon speed. I suspect that some of the runaway science lead may be associated with the English having more time to settle cities, but I am unsure.

If anyone else has any balance suggestions for me to test that may address the problem, please share. Coronavirus has given me plenty of time.

Thanks for taking the time to test out some possible solutions. I'd like to hear back on how your fix works out, and your post on why the Americans get so far ahead in tech. I suspect it's just their abundance of , coupled with the best tech modifier in the game, but maybe there's more to it than that. I'm a marathon player as well, and I've also thought that maybe the British/American (B/A) tech lead can be attributed to the fact they are able to settle their cities faster than they are on Normal/Epic speed, but I have yet to play these civilizations, or play on any other gamespeed, so I really can't say.

I will say though, in my own opinion, the problem isn't necessarily that the B/A are too runaway in technology (but that is part of the problem), it's more that the rest of the world struggles to keep up. Maybe your experience is different, but in my Japanese games I played, the B/A were more or less where they should be at historically, researching the end of the Industrial era/beginning of the Global era around 1880/1890 (probably a decade or two too fast), while the rest of Europe is roughly two whole tech columns behind. I'd like to see the Global era be entered by the world around 1900, so I think the problem lies more with every other civilization...

If you are taking ideas on possible balance solutions, I'd suggest letting the "tech spread" research bonus be applied more liberally, at least in the Industrial era and up. I don't 100% know how this function works, but I believe that if a certain number of known civilizations have researched a technology, that technology becomes easier to research, with the bonus becoming greater as more civilizations research it. Maybe you can change this bonus so that it kicks in if only one civilization researches a technology, and increase from there?

 

[Kewlipo]

I will say though, in my own opinion, the problem isn't necessarily that the B/A are too runaway in technology (but that is part of the problem), it's more that the rest of the world struggles to keep up. Maybe your experience is different, but in my Japanese games I played, the B/A were more or less where they should be at historically, researching the end of the Industrial era/beginning of the Global era around 1880/1890 (probably a decade or two too fast), while the rest of Europe is roughly two whole tech columns behind. I'd like to see the Global era be entered by the world around 1900, so I think the problem lies more with every other civilization...

I think this is a good point. However, I have also experienced a Japanese game where America is researching Globalism/Aviation in 6 turns in 1920 (with England not too far behind), which makes the Japanese UHV impossible. It is my hope that any nerf applied to B/A will not only push them back a decade or two to more historical research times but also reign in the extreme cases like the one I experienced.

If you are taking ideas on possible balance solutions, I'd suggest letting the "tech spread" research bonus be applied more liberally, at least in the Industrial era and up. I don't 100% know how this function works,

I have thought about testing changes with tech spread as well. I have not looked at how it is calculated, but I always thought it would be cool if nations that are closer to each other should receive greater benefit from tech spread. That is, the nations nearer to the tech leader (England) should receive a larger research buff from tech spread than faraway nations. Maybe it is already calculated this way, I do not know. However, I don't think that would necessarily help stop the runaway tech lead that B/A develop. I also don't think the solution is to bring everyone up to B/A tech speeds, but rather to slow B/A down, if that makes sense. Either way, I can still look into experimenting with tech spread, it seems like an interesting avenue to investigate.

Edit: Here is the Japan game I was playing. I looked at the Americans and the results confirmed my suspicions:

Spoiler :

A lot of interesting things to glean from this.

• First and foremost is the confirmation that Japan's tech modifier is ridiculously high, especially when the player is expected to out-tech other civs. Just look at the base comparison: 8100 vs 14400 for the same tech.
• America is running at 100% science. When I have played America, running at 100% science is almost given. There are so few costs involved because their modifiers are the lowest in the game. (50 for civic upkeep, holy moly!)
• Do the AI not suffer from tech-spread costs? How does Globalism cost only 8100 for the Americans? I will have to look at how those costs are calculated, that seems suspiciously low.

America has some of the best land in the game and many of the best wonders, however my gut-feeling is that even if those things are nerfed their modifiers will always allow them to excel extraordinarily. I originally did want to avoid touching modifiers, but in America's case I think nerfing them might very well be the most obvious answer.

 

[Leoreth]

There is no tech diffusion of that kind, instead there is an overall rubber banding effect that is based on the overall amount of beakers researched by each civ. The top 25% get a penalty (scaling with rank, so the full effect only applies to the tech leader) and the bottom 25% get a discount (with scaling in inverse). The effect also scales up with game era, but it could certainly be more pronounced. I was fairly conservative, since it applies to the player too.

There also was a time where America was struggling a lot with tech, and I'm pretty sure I buffed them at some point to help. Looks like they don't have as many problems anymore and could be nerfed a little. I'm looking forward to your results. England is a little bit trickier because they need to be balanced in such a way that they are competitive early on with their small territory but do not get out of control once their empire has expanded.

 

[Kewlipo]

There is no tech diffusion of that kind, instead there is an overall rubber banding effect that is based on the overall amount of beakers researched by each civ. The top 25% get a penalty (scaling with rank, so the full effect only applies to the tech leader) and the bottom 25% get a discount (with scaling in inverse). The effect also scales up with game era, but it could certainly be more pronounced. I was fairly conservative, since it applies to the player too.

There also was a time where America was struggling a lot with tech, and I'm pretty sure I buffed them at some point to help. Looks like they don't have as many problems anymore and could be nerfed a little. I'm looking forward to your results. England is a little bit trickier because they need to be balanced in such a way that they are competitive early on with their small territory but do not get out of control once their empire has expanded.

Oops, I just finished editing my post right after you commented. Is there anything abnormal with the 8100 cost for Globalism, or am I missing something? Also, thank you for explaining tech spread, that clarifies a lot. I will write a full summary for the Americans when I finish doing my testing runs with the English (12 600 AD Canada spawns take quite a while to auto-play on marathon )

Edit: Sorry for continually editing my posts, but I just decided to switch to America in my Japan game and the costs actually changed:

Spoiler :

Before I switched, the cost was 8100. It then changed to the correct cost of 12600.

This is very intriguing. By the looks of what you were saying, this does not seem intentional, and may very well elude to a bug that might be causing the crazy tech leads. How strange.