SUL5a - Competing Succession Game Teams

[Sullla]

This is the thread for the "A" team. The roster is as follows:

D-Tox
ZeekLTK
archer_007
Wetterlind
Zarth
Advisor: Sullla (Me)

Game Specifications
English Civ (Commercial and Expansionist)
Warlord Difficulty
7 AI opponents
Standard-sized Map
70% water Continents landmass
Random Climate
Restless Barbarians
Default Rules, but AI Respawn and Culturally-Linked Starting Positions are Off

Rules
- The first player plays 20 turns, after that all players play 10-turn rounds.
- 24 hours to post an "I got it" message then 48 hours to play the game. If you need to drop from the game or will be away, please let the other people on your team know so they can work around it.
- No worker automations; you will do better without them anyway! Exception can be made for pollution cleanup in the end game.
- No long goto orders, since the next player will have no idea where the unit is going.
- No Right of Passage (ROP) abuses, like signing one to attack another civ. That's off the table.
- No signing deals with the intention of not honoring them (example: get 4 techs for 100gpt then declare war to avoid paying it)
- If you sign a peace treaty for 20 turns, it must be honored. No stabbing AI civs in the back.
- "Winning" is based losely on score; this isn't the kind of competition where one group really wins or loses, but we will determine it by score nonetheless. No "sandbagging" on a victory though just to get more points; this is not a competition to see who can milk score better. No keeping one AI city alive to delay conquest victory, intentionally not launching the spaceship, etc.
- No reading the other team(s)'s thread! Period. When the game is finished, the advisor will post a "game complete" message in this thread.

Here is a map of the starting position:

The save file can be found here:

SUL5 4000BC

D-Tox is up in this game; Team B players should look only at their respective thread. Best of luck to all!

EDIT: Removed the "All discussions should take place in this thread" message that was mistakenly copied from the actual main thread.

 

[Sullla]

This is just a message welcoming the 5 people on my team - here's hoping we can do better than those losers over on the B squad. If you have any questions for me, I'll do my best to answer them. Don't expect me to reveal anything about the map though that you haven't uncovered for yourselves.

 

[D-Tox]

Got it!

Couple questions for the team based on the pic, and before I open the save....trying to get off to a good start

This will be my first Warlord game ...what do you propose should be researched first? (Never played English, but according to the manual we start with Pottery and Alphabet)

Perhaps Masonry to get Pyramids? (If our continent is large enough to warrant it). Either than, or Bronze Working to be able to build Spearman for defense (Restless barbs....)

Looking at the pic of the start, I would say that that looks like a pretty nice place for the starting city. I was planning on moving the scout to the hill w/ incense right near the goodie hut (but won't grab it for a few turns) to see whats in those plains (possible flood plains to the south near the river?) I can see on the edge of the fog (actually...depending on WHERE we are on the map, it might be more beneficial to start the scout to the NW....we could be on the edge of the map and exploring inward would benefit more)

Was also planning on moving the worker directly west to the bonus grassland and start mining/roading that.

This is how I usually start in chieftan....would just like some input if my starting play is off some...thanks!

 

[Sullla]

Resaerch decision is up to you. As you said, Bronze Working gives the option to build spears, Masonry would allow work on Pyramids, Ceremonial Burial allows temples, Warrior Code gives archers, Writing is expensive and opens up lots of options. It's always a tradeoff as to what you think is most important. Once you find out more about your situation (what does the map look like, where are the AI civs, etc.) you can make more informed decisions about what to research. For now... go with that you think will be most important.

 

[D-Tox]

What's the deal with goodie huts at the beginning of the game? I thought I read somewhere here in an SG where there was one nearby as there is here, but it wasn't grabbed until after like 5 turns or something like that to increase chances of getting a settler or something?

 

[D-Tox]

0) 4000BC - Looks like a pretty nice spot for a starting city. Next to a fresh water source,
some bonus grasslands, and Incense x 3! But before I do anything, I set research to
Bronze Working for Spearman later.
- I then move the worker to the bonus grassland to the west.
Doesn't review anything real beneficial for use to move our settler.
- I start the scout on his trek south...nothing big revealed.
- Now I found London, set production to Scout (plan is scout, warrior, granary, and crank
out settlers for a bit). Research set to 100%

1) 3950BC - I start the worker mining the bonus grassland. I move the scout south.
(I read something somewhere where you should wait a couple turns to grab a goody
hut if its at the start of the game? I'll grab it with the new scout when its done)

2) 3900BC - More exploring south

3) 3850BC - More exploring south

4) 3800BC - More exploring south. The scout spots gems in mountains to the south.

5) 3750BC - Scout is finished, start London on warrior. Since it looks like we're on the edge
of continents map, I'll sent the new scout to the west (looks like mountains and jungle
to the north, from what I can see on the edge of the fog). Continue south with the
initial scout. I don't see any hurry to get the hut, so the warrior will grab it when he's completed

6) 3700BC - More exploring

7) 3650BC - Worker finishes mine near London. Looks like London will expand in 3 turns,
so I send worker to bonus grassland to the N to get started on a mine. Incense can wait for
now is my reasoning. Micromanage London so that the newly mined square is being worked.
Warrior now finishes in 2 turns instead of 3, and growth remains the same.
Continue exploration with the scouts.
- We also see red borders (Rome) to the south!

8) 3600BC - Start worker on mining bonus grassland. Moving worker south, we contact the Romans.
The only tech they have that we don't is Warrior Code. They won't accept a straight
up trade for Pottery and don't see that any deal is possible for it.

9) 3550BC - Warrior finishes, start on Granary. We'll send the warrior to the East, to finally
getting the goodie hut next turn (could have gotten it earlier, wasted moves though)
It *appears* like Rome is on the bottom of this continent. If so, we should build some
cities to the south to stop them from expanding? Rome still won't trade us Warrior Code.

10) 3500BC - Goodie hut gives us Ceremonial Burial.
- London expands because of high culture!
- Rome finally trades us Warrior Code, but we have to give them Pottery + Ceremonial Burial

11) 3450BC - More exploration

12) 3400BC - Yep, its confirmed...the scout sends work back that Rome is indeed on a peninsula
of this continent. We'll send him back north to do more exploration that way

13) 3350BC - More exploring

14) 3300BC - Worker finishes mine on the bonus grasslands. Granary will be done in eight turns..

15) 3250BC - Worker starts a road on the same square. Exploration by the warrior reveals a wheat.

16) 3200BC - More exploring

17) 3150BC - Worker finishes road. Sent worker to the hill w/ incense to the SE.
One of our scouts finds another civ to the NW, the Zulus!

18) 3100BC - Worker starts on a road for the incense. We contact the Zulus and trade Alphabet for Masonry.
They also have Bronze Working, but ours is done next turn.

19) 3050BC - We learn bronze working, and we start on writing. More exploration.

20) 3000BC - Checking diplomacy, zulus have Mysticism now, but we have nothing they want.
Rome is now cautious (used to be polite). Two turns until the granary is done.

My observations:

- I think we should found a couple cities to the south to keep Rome below the mountain range
- The jungle to the north will hamper growth for awhile, but there is plenty of freshwater
in the jungles, and some fertile ground to the west as well.

Here is a dotmap I did (first one). Blue dots are where I think new cities should be.
Red dot can wait. Of course, I'm probably way off on this Also, we need a city somewhere
over where the question mark is, but it should be explored first.

The save is attached...

 

[ZeekLTK]

Got it

but... I can't play it cuz the patch still won't work for me so is there any way someone can fix it so that I can load it?

 

[Sullla]

ZeekLTK, you MUST download and install the 1.29f patch in order to play the game. The saves are not backwards compatible, and I wouldn't allow different version of the game to be played anyway even if they were. I don't understand why this is causing a problem; do you have a Mac computer? If so, you won't be able to play the game since there is no 1.29f version for Macs (and I'm really sorry if that is the case ). Are you using a foreign language version of Civ3? I believe that the 1.29f patch only exists for the English and Japanese versions of the game. Again, there's nothing we can do if that's the case. As long as you are playing an authentic (non-hacked) version of Civ3, you should be able to install and run the 1.29f patch if the above cases are not true. Here's some instructions if that is stopping you:

1) Go to the link that I'm providing here and click on the "Download File" image.

2) A menu will pop up with several choices; select "Save" and pick a spot on your hard drive where you can find the file.

3) After the file downloads, go to the patch and double click on it. It should automatically install all of the files for you; you can check to see if it worked by opening up Civ3 and looking in the bottom corner of the title screen for the version number (should read 1.29f if done correctly).

I hope that your problems was simply one of installation and not a hardware conflict. If it's your hardware, there's not much we can do about it...

D-Tox: My only comment for the dotmap is that your cities are spaced out a little too far; there's going to be some wastage if the cities are placed there. It's also going to be critical to explore more of the map too in order to find where to place cities. How about some comments from the other players on this team as to what to do next? You guys have to provide the direction for the game - I'm just advising to make sure nothing wacky goes on.

 

[Wetterlind]

Ok, here is my version of The Plan:

(I used the previous map, as I don’t have Civ 3 here at work)

My reading of the map this far:
Red square: this is an important spot. Lots of bonus tiles and wheat! Here we can produce a lot of settlers early on! And the three hills will ensure that this will not only become a large city but a viable one even later in the game. I deem this spot to be a top priority spot to settle.

Yellow square: the same is true as for the red square. But it is further away from our capital and will suffer more from corruption. It is still a top spot and we can build a port here. It doesn’t fit right into the dot map but two tiles overlap is OK, especially early on.

Blue squares: Good spots. The square W of London can produce settlers and lots of science with all that food and rivers. The square S of London needs a lot of attention from a worker and probably an early temple to show its full potential. No one of the dots needs an aqueduct, which is good.

Also: that jungle needs to be explored, as there might be lots of nice luxuries hidden there. And we need to know whats behind that "?" mark to figure out how to grab all land before the Romas!

Is it naughty (unworthy of us) to place a warrior or two at the mountain choke point close the Romans (see previous pic by D-Tox)?

--Edit--
I forgot: The fog SW of London need to be cleared. There might be room for a good early city there.
--Edit 2--
My dyslexia does show... but now a little less.

 

[Wetterlind]

Oh, and yeah, is that 32 turns to Writing at 100% science? It looks like we are at minimum science speed and it might be worth lowering the investment into science and gain a few bucks without increasing the number of turns to writing.

 

[D-Tox]

Yes, that's 32 turns and we're at 100% science. I never even thought of checking to see if we could make a couple bucks...nice call Wetterlind.

Some things I've thought about:

-Sorry about leaving some nearby areas unexplored. I was trying to maximize use of scouts (expansionist!), and find other civs first while also uncovering a reasonable amount of the fog (which I think I did).

-Once we have some cash on hand, BE SURE to check diplomacy every turn, to see if we can buy some workers and/or techs. Also, once we are able to, we can trade contact and maps with Rome to the Zulus or vice versa for techs/workers/gold

-I don't think its against the rules to set up a unit at the mountain choke point, but lets have Sulla verify this before we do I don't see Rome sending a settler up that way for many more turns, so we've got plenty time to get a warrior down there, I believe. Hell...we could even wipe the Romans out...they don't have much room to move and won't be able to put up much of a fight....this is a bit longer term though.

-Granary will be done in two turns...then I would say crank settlers from there until we can product settlers from a newly built town...then we'll need a barracks up in at least one town to start, to produce Vet spearmen. Barb camps could be appearing soon (Restless barbs)

ZeekLTK: any luck with the patch yet?

These are just my opinions...lets get a general consensus on what to do, though, from everyone else

 

[Wetterlind]

D-Tox is perfectly right! Buying workers is "a good thing"(tm). The approximate value of a worker in gold is: (turns left of the game)/2. And that is not including cost of shields and the loss of population of production.

-Be sure to maximise growth in London. Otherwise we will have to slow down the settler production while waiting for London to reach size 3.

 

[Sullla]

Placing a warrior on the chokepoint to stop Rome from settling in the south would be a "dastardly" or evil act, but it is not an exploitative one so I see no reason not to allow it. Rome will have the option to dislodge our warrior by declaring war, after all. Sure it's a slimy move, but it's not one that takes advantage of blind spots in the AI programming, and as such I don't see any reason to take it off the table.

Worker buying on the other hand... Worker buying is so effective that I'm going to say no buying workers unless we have an embassy established with that civ. Here on Warlord difficulty, the AI civs only start with one worker and if we buy it at this stage in the game that civ will be forever crippled. By the time we discover Writing and found embassies, the AI civs will be far enough along that losing one worker will not be the end of them. So in summary, worker buying is a great strategy - TOO good of a strategy since it badly unbalances games. I'm going to PM Padma and make sure that the "B" team follows this restriction as well to ensure fair play.

Wetterlind: Your dotmap is pretty good, just remember that getting cities onto a freshwater source (either river or lake) is one of the highest priority for a city site. Perhaps it might be a good idea to found the second city on a freshwater site so it won't need an aqueduct to grow past size 6.

ZeekLTK: How goes it with the patch? I'm anxious to know if you have been able to get it to work.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Western blue dot should be 1 SE. Otherwise it wastes coast tiles. This allows more room for a city further to the W. Didnt anyone notice?

 

[D-Tox]

Hmm...no I didn't...thanks Do you mean the blue circle, though? Sulla pointed out that the blue circle to the west might be too far west and will be wasting tiles to the east. Wetterlind re-did the dotmap and added squares instead of dots.

We're all still new players (this is my first Warlord game) so I miss stuff like this still.

Sulla and Padma aren't critiquing (sp?) very heavily, either...they're just here to make sure we don't do anything majorly wrong.

 

[Wetterlind]

To Erik Mesoy: Oh, there will be plenty of in this thread. We are here to learn, a lot. I suppose you suggest something like this:

In short:
Blood red:
Same as my earlier dot map. See comments there

Red:
One bonus tile on a very well protected spot with plenty of food. Will get more once the border expands. A top spot!

Yellow:
Also well protected, due to the river. But requires lot of work to become a good city.

Light Blue:
On a hill, by the ocean. One bonus tile and another one once expanding. Also a good spot, but close to the Zulus.

Dark Blue:
Also by the ocean. A space filler early on. We'll probably find better spots to settle before we get to this one, once the fog has lifted.

We can squeze in a city SW of London, by the ocean, and we have 2 shots on getting our hands on those fine looking rocks in the S (SW ocean square close to the mountain or futher SE of the light yellow dot). I have no idea on how to populate the jungle. We have to wait and see whats hideing in there.

So, what is the road forward? Kicking some Roman butt or expanding like ... well, fast. What victory condition are we aiming for? Should we build ploughs or spears, or perhaps fancy buildings? Well, now we got 3 dot maps and no plan. What do you all say? (I'll try to post fewer pics in the future)

Sullla, some directions please! (Are we (who're not playing at the moment) allowed to look at the save file? I did that to get a new screen shot for the dot map.)

And where is ZeekLTK?

 

[D-Tox]

I think the blood red dot might be better one to the NE? We don't get the wheat or the 3rd bonus tile until it expands, but it will be on a source of freshwater and, as Sulla pointed out, will not need an Aqueduct to grow past size 6.

Perhaps these dot maps should be taken loosely, as far as northern and southern cities go, as there is still a bit more fog to uncover, and we won't have a settler for a bit.

There's two unclaimed squares of incense to get yet...still wondering whether the yellow city would be better placed more to the west to get those after it expands, or not.

Hopefully the rest of the team will have a chance to chime in tonite, before ZeekLTK starts his turn (yes, where is he?)

 

[Sullla]

Sullla, some directions please!

You guys are doing fine, this kind of discussion is just what I had hoped to see. D-Tox and Wetterlind, you both have drawn up a MUCH-improved dotmap over the first one submitted as a result of discussing the game. Nice going! You can't plan any more cities without exploring more of the map though. As per your other question, all players are always free to open up the save game and take a look at the current situation. You just can't play ahead, that's all. These maps should be taken as guidelines until more turns are played, but I'm extremely pleased with the discussion taking place so far. Considering that only 20 turns have been played, you have covered quite a bit of subject matter!

On the same issue though, I'd like to see some comments from the other players as well; I don't expect anyone to hang around these boards as much as I do, but I would like to see at least a "Hi, I'm following the game and I think we should....." message from archer_007 and Zarth so I know they're on board. I would like to hear from ZeekLTK as well, but by rule he has 48 hours from when he posted his "got it" message, which gives him until 10:00pm EST tomorrow night to submit a turn. If we do not hear from him by that time, he will be skipped and archer_007 will be up. ZeekLTK, if you are reading this, please let us know your status ASAP.

Overall I'm very pleased with how things are going, and this with only participation from two players! Once the rest of the team chimes in, we will really be able to have some nice discussions.

This message is for Erik Mesoy and other experienced players out there: please don't post a lot of criticism of the players here. This is not a training day game, and I'm here to guide not teach those on my team. They're playing the game themselves, so I'm keeping my criticisms general and light - I would like you to do the same. There were plenty of weedy moves on the first turn, but that's OK - the players in this game are learning from each other and will only get better by discussing what has gone on. So feel free to read along and pop in from time to time on the thread, but please no real critiques of player turns. Thanks.

 

[ZeekLTK]

Ok I still can't get this to work but I know someone who might be able to help me so I'll pass this turn and hopefully I have it working by the time it gets back to me. Sorry for the holdup, I dunno WTH is wrong. :/

But I think that 3rd map looks pretty good. But once we get a city where the yellow dot is we should keep going South and try to get those gems before the Romans can.

 

[Sullla]

Good luck getting the patch to work on your copy of Civ3 ZeekLTK. Archer_007 is up now, 24 hours to claim the game or it will pass to Wetterlind.