Sunday's PAX talk (with summary of the info)

[MadDjinn]

The CN Tower? It's going to be hilarious when Canada is announced as the mystery civ

nah, I think this is just a subtle way to add Canadian content (we have actually done rather important world spanning things in the past) without actually adding Canada as a civ (which I personally don't think should happen).

 

[MadDjinn]

I was wondering if you think diety will be harder in GaK? I think with diplomacy, along with religion, espionage, and new combat rules mixed in, may make things more difficult. Are you going to be doing videos on it? Sorry if thats a stupid question.

yeah, LPs will be up ASAP after GaK launches. At least, there's going to be one showing all of the changes and maybe some commentary on what that means re: strategies.

As per 'harder' - that remains to be seen. Right now, deity is more about abuses rather than 'winning' vs. a competent foe (and really, if they give mass bonuses to a sub-par AI, then it deserves to be abused).

But we'll see if the AI gets to be more competent.

 

[MadDjinn]

I just wonder why. Are modern wonders underrepresented? We already knew Neuschwanstein Castle and the Great Mosque of Djenne are in as new Wonders, and both date from the modern era (it's true that the Great Mosque was built on a site occupied by former mosques dating back to the Songhai period, but the building that is actually considered a wonder was built in 1906 and, while inspired by Sahelian styles, was a then-new design rather than a replica of a previous mosque).

I'd have plumped for Borobodur as a new Wonder, but at least Petra finally made it in so I'm somewhat mollified...

EDIT: then again, as long as Cristo Redentor is accepted as a Wonder in this game, I suppose we have to accept that "Wonder" is no longer being taken to mean "feat of architectural or cultural accomplishment" but rather is becoming synonymous with "popular tourist site"

The CN Tower is actually considered a ""feat of architectural or cultural accomplishment"" and only happens to be a tourist attraction.

But yes, there's a major drop off of buildable wonders once you get into Modern. So it's no surprise that they added one or two.

 

[Dregor]

nah, I think this is just a subtle way to add Canadian content (we have actually done rather important world spanning things in the past) without actually adding Canada as a civ (which I personally don't think should happen).

While I agree with you, I also think that when we have people realistically asking for an Inuit civ because it's something different, I think the same can be said for a Canadian civ. But like I said, I agree with you, it shouldn't be in.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

The CN Tower is actually considered a ""feat of architectural or cultural accomplishment"" and only happens to be a tourist attraction.

But yes, there's a major drop off of buildable wonders once you get into Modern. So it's no surprise that they added one or two.

and the Christ the Redeemer is also a beautiful statue.

And somebody omitted the Petra and Terracota Army I believe as well as the Leaning Tower of Pisa, which are also being added.

 

[PhilBowles]

The CN Tower is actually considered a ""feat of architectural or cultural accomplishment"" and only happens to be a tourist attraction.

But yes, there's a major drop off of buildable wonders once you get into Modern. So it's no surprise that they added one or two.

They seem to have added three...

I have to say I'm unenthusiastic about the various efforts at meeting "world's tallest building" targets, and what makes the Canadian version more accomplished than the Petronas Towers, Taipei 101, or the newest tower to take the crown, Burj Khalifa? I don't think a Wonder is something you build to competition specs (I'd rather see the Eiffel Tower out on the same basis, but that at least has become internationally recognised as the icon of modern France) but something that has, indeed, stood the test of time. True, that becomes particularly difficult with any modern structure.

Oh well, anything's preferable to Cristo Redentor. Can they replace that one, please? There may well be a reason UNESCO distanced itself from the "New Seven Wonders" poll a few years back after that one made the list...

and the Christ the Redeemer is also a beautiful statue.

Frankly I consider it a hideous statue - it's famous because of its clifftop setting rather than the architecture. I'm hardly the only one - one of my friends has a mission to visit the various surviving Wonders that have been featured in Civ games. Explicitly excluding Cristo Redentor and that alone. But it's the Wonder status I query, and that's not based on personal dislike - there's nothing exceptional about the accomplishment of building a fairly ordinary-looking statue and, while large for the subject matter, it's not exceptionally large for a statue per se. While it's become an icon for Rio, I'm not aware that it reflects anything particular about the culture of either the city or Brazil - it's not in a uniquely Brazilian style, it wasn't built for any deeply symbolic reason - it's just a big piece of Art Deco that was built in France because the Brazilian government decided to stick a religious statue on the mountain.

And somebody omitted the Petra and Terracota Army I believe as well as the Leaning Tower of Pisa, which are also being added.

I was specifically referring to industrial/modern Wonders being added, of which there are three: Neuschwanstein Castle (constructed: 1886), Great Mosque of Djenne (constructed: 1906. Also by the French, incidentally), and CN Tower (constructed: 1976). In contrast we know of two classical Wonders (Petra: main period of facade construction between the 1st Century BC and 1st Century AD) and the Terracotta Army (constructed: early 3rd Century BC), and one medieval Wonder, the Leaning Tower of Piza (constructed: 1178).

Given the number of eras in the game, the modern era is drastically overrepresented in G&K - the remaining three Wonders essentially have to be split between the Ancient, Medieval and Renaissance eras (which does, admittedly, potentially leave space for Borobodur).

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

What's wrong with Cristo Redentor?

 

[SpaceJesus]

nah, I think this is just a subtle way to add Canadian content (we have actually done rather important world spanning things in the past) without actually adding Canada as a civ (which I personally don't think should happen).

Oh I understand, I just think it would be fun. Also, They are going to need a civ with a UU for the WWI era, and Canada did play a role in WWI, so maybe, just maybe....

 

[GenjiKhan]

Frankly I consider it a hideous statue - it's famous because of its clifftop setting rather than the architecture. I'm hardly the only one - one of my friends has a mission to visit the various surviving Wonders that have been featured in Civ games. Explicitly excluding Cristo Redentor and that alone. But it's the Wonder status I query, and that's not based on personal dislike - there's nothing exceptional about the accomplishment of building a fairly ordinary-looking statue and, while large for the subject matter, it's not exceptionally large for a statue per se. While it's become an icon for Rio, I'm not aware that it reflects anything particular about the culture of either the city or Brazil - it's not in a uniquely Brazilian style, it wasn't built for any deeply symbolic reason - it's just a big piece of Art Deco that was built in France because the Brazilian government decided to stick a religious statue on the mountain.

You really don't know what you're talking about . The real reason behind the building of the Christo Redentor was to celebrate the 100th year of the Brazilian Independence,which was the similar reason why the USA government built the Statue of Liberty .

 

[PhilBowles]

You really don't know what you're talking about . The real reason behind the building of the Christo Redentor was to celebrate the 100th year of the Brazilian Independence,which was the similar reason why the USA government built the Statue of Liberty .

The French built that as well, and it was a French rather than a US government initiative. However, in that case there was a clear cultural connection - firstly it celebrated the role of the French in liberating America, and secondly the statue itself enshrines a value common to both societies and that they want to be seen as their 'public' face to the world, as well as having a design that evokes classical representations of justice.

This very analogy demonstrates exactly why Cristo Redentor is not worthy of being considered a major cultural achievement, let alone a Wonder. What does it say about Brazil? That they're Christian? So's the rest of the Americas, half of Africa and most of Europe. Is it a particularly Brazilian desire to be seen as especially pious in their devotion, in the way that, while liberty and justice are common to most Europeanised cultures, they are held as defining cultural slogans mainly by France and America? In what way does a statue of Jesus represent Brazil's independence? Did he play a particularly helpful role in liberating the country? And if it was built to commemorate the centenary of Brazil's 1815 independence, why was the idea of building it not proposed until 1921?

In summary, it reflects nothing about Brazil, it wasn't built by Brazilians or in a Brazilian style, it was not architecturally or technically difficult to build with the technology of the time, and it seems that even Brazilians (if I'm right in assuming that you are) don't know the real reason why it was built, which speaks volumes for its cultural relevance.

 

[SuperWaffle247]

The statue is also undoubtedly an icon for both Rio de Janiero and Brazil as a whole.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Indeed,Christo Redentor reflects the big influence of the Christianism over brazilian's culture . By the way,what's wrong with Christo Redentor to justifiy the replacement for another wonder(and since when a world wonder is replaced?)?

 

[PhilBowles]

The statue is also undoubtedly an icon for both Rio de Janiero and Brazil as a whole.

So is the Amazon or Igacu Falls. So it comes back, essentially, to "Which would win a popularity contest?" which I think is a poor basis for choosing Wonders (okay, the other two aren't artefacts, but I think Igacu should be a Natural Wonder).

Also, there are almost 200 countries on Earth - why should Brazil be singled out to get one of its national symbols included as a Wonder just because it's a national symbol of Brazil, if it wouldn't otherwise be worthy of inclusion? The stars and stripes is a national symbol of the USA, and is an artefact, but I wouldn't say the American flag should be a wonder either.

Indeed,Christo Redentor reflects the big influence of the Christianism over brazilian's culture

But that is nothing unique to Brazil, it's not a feature that distinguishes it from neighbouring countries or from much of the rest of the world, and at least in the international consciousness it's not seen as a sufficiently stereotypical feature of Brazil that when people think of Brazilians their first thought is of particularly pious Christians. The Statue of Liberty represents "the Land of the Free", Cristo Redentor can't really be said to represent "The Land of the Christian" - Brazil has no particularly unique claim to that.

By the way,what's wrong with Christo Redentor to justifiy the replacement for another wonder(and since when a world wonder is replaced?)?

Well, all the reasons I've already given as to why the statue doesn't really meet any of the criteria to qualify as a Wonder.

The New Seven Wonders poll was conducted a few years ago, originally under the auspices of UNESCO, to select seven Wonders to reflect the greatest achievements of the world as now (rather than classically) recognised, excluding the "original" seven. Originally experts shortlisted various proposed sites - about 20 or so - but UNESCO distanced itself from the project after the final selection was opened to popular vote; I believe the original intent was that it should have been a wholly expert-led process. The final seven sites were:

The Temple of Kukulcan, Chichen Itza, Mexico
Cristo Redentor, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
The Great Wall of China
Macchu Picchu, Peru
Petra, Jordan
The Taj Mahal, Agra, India
The Colosseum, Rome, Italy

Admittedly, I don't have any evidence that the selection of Cristo Redentor over, say, Angkor played any part in UNESCO's decision, but it is notable that only one of the above seven sites is not part of a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Guess which one that would be.

 

[GRM7584]

There are a dozen 30-metre tall white statues of Christ with his arms outstretched that are all "iconic" for their countries (many of them in South America), but don't have the same international fame.

As such, it probably isn't in because of any "wondrous" merits, but rather because the target audience of Civ is likely to correctly associate it with South America, a continent whose only other Civ representative is the Inca (and a couple city-states). It's silly, but Civ has had a lot of silly wonders.

 

[Guandao]

One city state actually-Rio de Janeiro

 

[Liex]

And if it was built to commemorate the centenary of Brazil's 1815 independence, why was the idea of building it not proposed until 1921?

Perhaps that's because Brazil's independence was archived in 1822, not in 1815. By 1815 Brazil colonial condition was lifted (Rio became the Portuguese Empire's Capital, the Portuguese court and the King lived there), but that means it wasn't independent yet. The Proclamation of Independence happened in 1822.

And say what you will, but it's indeed wonderful. If by 1920s Brazil needed a strong icon for its capital, it got it. Can you imagine Rio without it? And it undoubtedly became a Christianity symbol.

Spoiler :

There are a dozen 30-metre tall white statues of Christ with his arms outstretched that are all "iconic" for their countries (many of them in South America), but don't have the same international fame.

One can only wonder why.

 

[nokmirt]

Summary update!

The_J you forgot the Pigs resource if I read correctly. I thought one looked like corn but no one verified that. Pigs for certain though.

 

[Buccaneer]

Brazil has the world's largest Catholic population. The Cristo Redentor fits perfectly as its icon.

 

[tithin]

Was there not supposed to be the announcement of the final civilisation on Sundays live stream? I mean, that's the last day of PAX right, so no more announcements after this, excepting the possible answers to the questions asked (any day now guys!), right?

 

[PhilBowles]

Perhaps that's because Brazil's independence was archived in 1822, not in 1815. By 1815 Brazil colonial condition was lifted (Rio became the Portuguese Empire's Capital, the Portuguese court and the King lived there), but that means it wasn't independent yet. The Proclamation of Independence happened in 1822.

Oh well, so proposing it only a year earlier was very likely to have been an independence move, then. Knowing as they did that it wouldn't be completed in time. You make it sound like the Millennium Dome of Rio. Though I haven't found any verification of the claim that it was produced for any purpose relating to independence - rather the Brazilian government decided that it specifically wanted a religious monument on the mountain,

And say what you will, but it's indeed wonderful. If by 1920s Brazil needed a strong icon for its capital, it got it. Can you imagine Rio without it? And it undoubtedly became a Christianity symbol.

Spoiler :

My feeling is that the view's great but that statue gets in the way...