Superheroes & representation (split from questions thread)

I think that contrived magical origin stories can actually play a useful role in insulating the story from reality. People don't really do what Spiderman does, but people don't get bitten by radioactive spiders, so the premise itself demands we step into a reality in which this sort of thing makes sense. The relative realism of Batman's premise makes it that much harder to avoid the fact he's just a rich lunatic in a funny costume.
 
I think that contrived magical origin stories can actually play a useful role in insulating the story from reality. People don't really do what Spiderman does, but people don't get bitten by radioactive spiders, so the premise itself demands we step into a reality in which this sort of thing makes sense. The relative realism of Batman's premise makes it that much harder to avoid the fact he's just a rich lunatic in a funny costume.

Now that is sort of funny. Most of batman's enemies seem to be a bit "off their rocker" too, Joker, Riddler, etc...

I wonder, if a person is rich, how could they be a "superhero"? I would think a rich superhero would be someone who uses their wealth to help others who don't have a lot of wealth. Since "wealth" is the primary superhero power a rich person would have, then giving some of the wealth to those who have the least would be a "superhero" action appropriate to a rich person. I mean unless the rich person has "x-ray vision" and all sorts of other goofy stuff.
 
I for one object to all these heroes with super powers. I think us no-powers should be better represented.

A point I've been trying to make. What are the expectations of "representation" in a genre that is, at its core, non-representational?

Since I'm white, I can't say for certain that Tony Stark whiteness plays no role in my identification. But I don't think it does; what I really want is that dang suit. And I think I'd "identify" with Iron Man the same way that I presently do (imagining flying around in an iron suit), just the same if someone of a different race manned it (or gender womaned it) in the comic or movies.

(And, again, I'm working mostly from the movies. I never read superhero comics. Pity. I would have made a great comic geek.)

Edit: Note: I don't know if people count her as a superhero or not, but if so, the superhero in whom I was most invested (watched the adventures religiously and through the entire run) was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Never felt I couldn't identify because she was of a different gender from me.
 
Given that Salty Mud's defence of a white Captain America was one of identification, that Captain America "should" be white because that allowed the "average" 1940s-era American to identify with him, I'd take his claims with a pinch of salt.
 
Yeah, but I want to crack into these issues of identification. Because they're a premise behind the drive for representation.

Neither of which do I think is a simplistic matter in the case of this genre. Or maybe anywhere.

But (also, yeah), my argument cuts both ways: why not a black Captain America?

But, see, now this is one reason why I think race and gender identification need to be more fully thought through in this connection. Iron Man and Captain America are both white, so I should supposedly have an equally easy time identifying with them. But I think a powered iron suit is a cool super power and a super strong shield is a dumb one. Totally independently of racial considerations, I'm "identifying" with one more than another based on the fantastic element in the story, not on the "real life" element of the story.

And I'd have to think that was true of people of all races and genders.

But if so, it takes away from one of the proposed rationales for diversification at the "real life" level of the stories, no?
 
Question for any comic book aficionados out there: Do you think there would ever have been such a thing as a "superhero" comic had there never been a Friedrich Nietzsche? :)
 
I was one of the "shrieking" BSG fans upset about Starbuck at first, but Katee Sackoff won me over big time fairly quickly by her outstanding performance.
That is an interesting point.
I do not know the old BGS and did not second-guess the gender of Starbuck for a second. But if I had been a fan of 70s BGS I would probably have been schrieking like you.

I also was upset that the new Bond was blond. I like the new Bond. I still would like him to be dark-haired (and as a bonus have hairy chest).
Now am I racist against blondes? Probably not.
Likewise I can understand that a Captain-America-fan wants a white blond guy. I also can understand that this can have racist background. It is a muddy issue.
 
Question for any comic book aficionados out there: Do you think there would ever have been such a thing as a "superhero" comic had there never been a Friedrich Nietzsche? :)

I am not sure if those comix people ever read anything by Nietzsche, tbh :D

And 'heroes' obviously were around before that, in the main mythologies. Some were quite interesting (mostly the mechanical ones), eg Talos, the robotic-giant-defender of Crete, a work of Hephaestos as usual, or the somewhat occult-Cybelian ones, such as the Koryvantes, two dancers in full hoplite armor, who likely killed and maimed the other dancers around them :) (again tied to Hephaestos, iirc).

But ancient Greek heroes were usually more gore-oriented, eg Herakles or Theseus. Some were more about thinking fast and 'in many ways' [the epithet of Odysseus in the first verses of the Odyssey is 'the man of many ways' (polytropos)] :)
 
EDIT: Dur, there's a political cartoon thread that is more appropriate. Sorry.
 
To be fair, that's no less insane a response than a baby falling out of the sky in a metal pod and going "yeah sure we'll adopt him no biggy".
 
A point I've been trying to make. What are the expectations of "representation" in a genre that is, at its core, non-representational?

Since I'm white, I can't say for certain that Tony Stark whiteness plays no role in my identification. But I don't think it does; what I really want is that dang suit. And I think I'd "identify" with Iron Man the same way that I presently do (imagining flying around in an iron suit), just the same if someone of a different race manned it (or gender womaned it) in the comic or movies.
I think this is a useful comment because it raises the point about that while race plays a part in identification, it only plays a role within the complicated ways people identify with characters.

I will point out there is probably a lot more you identify with Tony Stark then the suit though, because you chose Iron Man over say, War Machine, Iron Monger, Firepower, Dr. Doom, Norman Osborn...er, you get the point.

There is probably a great deal of character facets that go into these. Some of these are probably at least cultural and class oriented, only because those experience require a deal of distancing from ourselves, and greater mental strain to make those connections and identifications.

Now, what I take from all this is that racial features alone don't make a character identifiable. This history of comics characters is littered with minority characters that readers failed to identify with. I would say there's a good chance that there's something approaching rough parity of African-American heroes to white, on raw numbers, due to the numbers that are wheeled out and soon forgotten.

Now, on the other hand, there are certain characters that are famous for appealing to minorities (especially at launch) which strictly speaking were short on them. Spider-Man and the New X-men come to mind in this regard, and they, don't seem to cut the mustard anymore. So why?

One factor that's obvious and needs to get out of the way first, is obviously the standards have changed. As bad as media representations of minorities are, they are a lot, lot better than they were in the 1960s. We are very fortunate to the fact that Peter Parker said "Hey" to a black student one time no longer is a life altering experience to some readers.

The second though, has to do with Narrative content. The term that continues to be used in these discussions is "identification", and as we've discussed there's a lot that goes into these things. But I think the biggest is that they represent, at least symbolically, challenges and goals the reader understands and to some extent shares, but I think deeper than that, works in the context of a Metanarrative you share.

That is, the way their world works. Tony Stark works in a world you understand, and operates on the same lines of cause and effect, and the same idea of what life is about. There's a reason people identify with Tony Stark easily, and ROM much less so. They may like and prefer ROM, but very few people would say they identify strongly with ROM's experience.

This, I think is why X-Men went from being the poster comic for racial minorities to just another comic. This, for better or worse, I think is also linked to the Gay Rights movement, and how those experiences were understood. Starting with the New X-Men, the X-Men were a team of misfits and outsiders, but crucially, this was not due to some remarkable experience, like say, the Thing.

Instead, outsiders to society is what they WERE. There was an implicit and sometimes explicit understanding that these people had been isolated, marginalized and beat down all their lives. AND they acted and behaved in ways that reflected that experience. They didn't even long for or accept the possibility that they could EVER belong to society.

Now, fast forward to the 2010s, and the narrative of mutants is very different. The emphasis is now placed on the transformation most mutants undergo in puberty. X-Men 2 was particularly blunt about this parallel in the whole scene about "Have you ever tried not being a mutant?" scene.

This has had effects on the whole meta-narrative. The central injustice mutants face is that they were normal white middle class Americans, or act in accordance to the expectations of white middle class Americans, and are still excluded from a white middle class American lifestyle. The ideals the X-Men seem to fight for (OK, the X-Men lead by cyclops, because that needs to be specified with X-Men now) are not only the integration of mutants into society, but the integration of mutants into society on terms that preserve their openly mutant identity, which is something that would have just sounded bonkers to the New X-Men.

Which is all well and good. There's plenty of practical writing reasons and non-racial causes for the changes that happened, some of them good, a lot of them bad, I think (but that's because I'm a cynic about the Big 2). But it happened, and the meta-narrative doesn't fit anymore. Which is OK, because I don't think New X-Men's Meta-narrative fits the experience of many racial minorities in America perfectly anymore either.

But it does tell us that there's a lot more going on in the discussions than just the explicit race of the character. And while all this can get worked out from the experience of fictional minorities, if they can't write something that gels with the minority experience, they can't write something that gels with the minority experience. The success of X-Men and Spider-Man in the minority appeal was, by all accounts, a happy accident. Stan Lee and John Byrne were writing about what it was like being really weird in America, which happened to look a lot like being a racial minority in America at the time. So,the take away is that comic books were never all that good at writing to minority experiences, but it is doable, and it can sell. The explicit demands of consumers makes it seem that it can sell better than ever.
 
Why does it matter to you whether my judgment is subjective?
Because i'm interested in being objective when talking about models of society.

All of this has to do with projected stereotypes that I too seek to work against as well. Why do you feel so agitated at what I write? I mean, I could go through the individual points of yours and outline the reasons why this goes hand in hand with a patriarchal worldview, which hurts both genders, but I think it's counterproductive as I'd much rather work with you and you appear to be easily provoked.
I'm 'agitated' and 'provoked' am I? Bit of poisoning the well creeping in? I'm merely disagreeing with you. If you are picturing me going red faced and sweaty at my keyboard, that's probably more indicative of your own bias in this conversation.

Well first communication goes two ways, and you casually ignore a lot of what I say or dismiss it as jargon; all of it is very fundamental to feminist writing and even if I'm a little unclear it should be pretty recognizable. Therefore I assumed you were not acquainted with the material.
I get this a lot with feminists. What they appear to mean is that if you don't agree with them, they need to explain themselves again... and again...and again... as though the problem is that you just don't understand, rather than that you think it's an absurd parody of society with little or not predictive power.
 
Thank you for engaging my question in such detail, PCH. About one thing--

I will point out there is probably a lot more you identify with Tony Stark then the suit though, because you chose Iron Man over say, War Machine, Iron Monger, Firepower, Dr. Doom, Norman Osborn...er, you get the point.

--you are incorrect. As I've been at pains to mention, I know only the movies, not the comics. This is the first time I'm hearing these names, so I haven't had them as a choice against Iron Man. They all have metal suits, I assume.

But, yes, "identification" is no simple matter in this genre. One can identify as much with the superhero as with the alter ego: if you're a black kid identifying with a green-skinned Hulk, that seems a bigger leap even than identifying with a white-skinned Banner. Then, as you say, people may identify as much with the life-situation of either alter ego or superhero as with the racial identity. And then I'd add this: these aren't simply identifications as fantasies: not so much "I'm like that guy" as "I'd like to be that guy." And again, if what you fantasize about the superpower, that is relatively independent of race.


I'm not arguing for or against Marvel diversifying its line-up, for or against a black Captain America. Just saying that doing so out of a sense that one is "reflecting" contemporary demographics seems like an incomplete motivation, given how people relate to this genre.

But I would ask two things of the comic fans as a follow up.

1) Have the comics on the Falcon focused on Sam Wilson (when he's in his non-super-hero mode) having the kind of struggles that black people face in American society? Has he reflected black experience?

2) Are month-by-month sales figures available for various titles? Will we know, short term and long term, whether Marvel made a commercially viable move with a black Captain America and a female Thor?
 
Really? Where do I look for them?

Edit: Ok, found 'em on the internet.
 
Actually Jack Taggart appeared in Iron Man 3 as well, but he never even wore the Firepower suit, so I'm not sure if that one counts. But still.
 
So, I just thought Obediah built a clone Iron Man suit. I didn't know he got his own whole name as a result. But no, I don't identify with him, unless in the comics his story is somehow more sympathetic. Rhodey, I'll have to think about, but the first thing I'll say is that one thing I do connect with is the building of the Iron Man suit, so to that degree I favor Stark over anyone who just wears a suit.

One frustration with this genre. It doesn't feel like one can catch up if one missed the stories in their original run. The summer that MOO was a big novel, I passed on it. But I picked it up later, because a novel always remains available. Not as true with comics, I think. Maybe they publish compendiums sometimes?
 
Oh yeah, they publish compendiums regularly. Also, they publish compilations of the better stories by themselves, so you can usually just read the good parts.
 
I am not sure if those comix people ever read anything by Nietzsche, tbh :D

And 'heroes' obviously were around before that, in the main mythologies. Some were quite interesting (mostly the mechanical ones), eg Talos, the robotic-giant-defender of Crete, a work of Hephaestos as usual, or the somewhat occult-Cybelian ones, such as the Koryvantes, two dancers in full hoplite armor, who likely killed and maimed the other dancers around them :) (again tied to Hephaestos, iirc).

But ancient Greek heroes were usually more gore-oriented, eg Herakles or Theseus. Some were more about thinking fast and 'in many ways' [the epithet of Odysseus in the first verses of the Odyssey is 'the man of many ways' (polytropos)] :)

Did the Greek heroes have "extra-ordinary" powers? X-ray vision, things like that? I thought the Greek heroes were mostly mere mortals who were exceptionally brave and skilled and did great deeds without great "superhuman" powers to help them (other than the favor of gods at different times).

"X-ray vision", Batman's wardrobe and gadgets and things of that type are of course perhaps modern science applied to heroism but the idea of a "super-man" was more or less coined from Nietzsche's ubermensch-basically the idea that without a God humans must fend for ourselves, create our own values because "thou shalt" no longer applies (at least according to Nietzsche).

Given the influence Nietzsche finally had by his death 1900, people were eventually quoting and misquoting him all over the place. Whoever invented the first "super-hero" comic book may NOT have read Nietzsche personally or directly but these were ideas circulating around Europe during the time. You would need to have lived in a sensory depravation chamber to avoid any influence from Nietzsche. For example do any of these "super-heroes" in the comics ever call on assistance from any God or gods? Or must they always rely on their "super-powers" or whatever else is available to them to get out of their calamities? God doesn't part the Red Sea for Batman to save Gotham from the Joker, rather Batman uses his handy dandy "Red Sear Parting Device" to do so.

So we have all these "superheroes" running around fighting the bad guys. I will refer everyone to Hygro's excellent thread on "fighting monsters to the point of becoming one".
 
Did the Greek heroes have "extra-ordinary" powers? X-ray vision, things like that? I thought the Greek heroes were mostly mere mortals who were exceptionally brave and skilled and did great deeds without great "superhuman" powers to help them (other than the favor of gods at different times).

"X-ray vision", Batman's wardrobe and gadgets and things of that type are of course perhaps modern science applied to heroism but the idea of a "super-man" was more or less coined from Nietzsche's ubermensch-basically the idea that without a God humans must fend for ourselves, create our own values because "thou shalt" no longer applies (at least according to Nietzsche).

Given the influence Nietzsche finally had by his death 1900, people were eventually quoting and misquoting him all over the place. Whoever invented the first "super-hero" comic book may NOT have read Nietzsche personally or directly but these were ideas circulating around Europe during the time. You would need to have lived in a sensory depravation chamber to avoid any influence from Nietzsche. For example do any of these "super-heroes" in the comics ever call on assistance from any God or gods? Or must they always rely on their "super-powers" or whatever else is available to them to get out of their calamities? God doesn't part the Red Sea for Batman to save Gotham from the Joker, rather Batman uses his handy dandy "Red Sear Parting Device" to do so.

So we have all these "superheroes" running around fighting the bad guys. I will refer everyone to Hygro's excellent thread on "fighting monsters to the point of becoming one".

A number of them either had 'powers' (eg Herakles was a demigod, and became a god after he burned himself, and Achilles was only vulnerable in his heel), but others had special objects which gave them powers, such as Perseas and his shield (i think also other stuff) and most also had the help of actual gods (Odysseus was helped by Athena, as well as lesser deities like Circe and Calypso) :)

I think that Theseus was just very strong, though. As was Diomedes and Ajax.
 
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