Superheroes!

[RobAnybody]

Comics artist Otto Schmidt did a piece showing all of Power Girl's costumes over the years

Power Girl is an alternate universe version of Supergirl. I was never a fan of the idea, much less the character*. She's like "what if Supergirl was boring?". I always liked (OK, loved) OG Kara Zor-El, when done right of course.

Power Girl is the Earth-Two equivalent of Supergirl, native Kryptonian and cousin to Superman. Born as Kara Zor-L on the dying planet Krypton, her parents eventually sent her in a ship to the planet Earth, where she became a superhero and a computer programmer known as Karen Starr.

But I've never been a fan of "alternate" interpretations of known characters in general (Elseworlds stories excepted). Especially of Supergirl. I may have mentioned how much I OG Supergirl & hate when studios get her wrong, & this applies to when the comics do stupid stuff like that, too.

*although I do own a copy of All-Star Comics 58 (1st appearance of Power Girl), but I own a LOT of historically significant comics, even for characters I dislike (heck, I even own the 1st comics appearance of Damian Wayne)

 

[Sommerswerd]

Batman Forever (1995), often considered one of the worst DC Universe-based movies ever made, had two unexpected things going for it, in my opinion.

Batman and Robin is easily the worst and almost universally considered the worst. Batman Forever is terrible, but it isn't even close to as bad as Batman and Robin. Its not just the worse Batman movie of that trilogy, or the worst Batman movie ever, or the worst DC movie ever*, or worst superhero movie ever, it's a pretty strong candidate for worst big/blockbuster-budget movie ever. George Clooney famously supposedly personally offered refunds to anyone who went to the movies to see it.

*Green Lantern was pretty bad, arguably a frontrunner for this title if not for Batman and Robin. Halle Berry's Catwoman deserves a mention too.

And, well, 3. I guess, but not unique to this one), it carried on the architechtural esthetic from Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992), and was further seen in Batman and Robin (1997) - that is, Gotham City buildings and infrastructure actually looking Gothic, omnous, foreboding, and crumpling - almost like one might imagine a World of Darkness setup. I was quite disappointed when the Dark Knight movies went to what struck as a, "rundown barracks town," look.

The fantasy like architecture of those Batman movies was cool, similar to the stuff we would later see in things like LotR and the Chronicles of Riddick movies. With the Christian Bale and later iterations I guess they were going for more "gritty" and/or "realistic" architecture.

 

[Sommerswerd]

** Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Spoiler :

The Power Girl costume variants seem to be a pretty clear inspiration for the costume(s) of Starlight in The Boys series.

 

[EgonSpengler]

The Power Girl costume variants seem to be a pretty clear inspiration for the costume(s) of Starlight in The Boys series.

Yes, could be. I never read the comic, so I can only comment on the show. Annie's first costume reminded me a bit of Mary Marvel. Her second, "slutty" costume made me think of Starfire (from the comics, not the cartoon or the live-action series).

I did a quick Google search to see if Starlight was inspired by a specific character, as so many of The Boys characters seem to be, but I didn't find anything. The two pages I glanced at only talked about the characters' powers. They both compared her to Doctor Light, and one of them compared her to Dazzler, so clearly they don't know anything about the character except that she has light powers. I was thinking that at the beginning of the series, she's the young ingenue - Kitty Pryde; Skye/Daisy in early seasons of Agents of SHIELD; Tom Holland's Peter Parker in Civil War and Infinity War*; Stargirl, as played by Brec Bassinger in the show; Raven, in the Titans show. She transformed pretty quickly, though, faster than those other characters have, and doesn't fit her original archetype any longer. I suppose that's true for all of the characters in The Boys. Homelander obviously isn't just Superman-if-he-were-bad anymore. He's his own man psychopath now.


* The pairing of Peter Parker and Tony Stark in those movies reminded me of the character that Robert Downey Jr played in Wonder Boys (2000), in which the young ingenue was played, in a funny coincidence, by another Peter Parker, Tobey Maguire.

 

[EgonSpengler]

But I've never been a fan of "alternate" interpretations of known characters in general (Elseworlds stories excepted).

I like multiverses and alternate versions of characters, conceptually. It has to be done well, of course. Unfortunately, part of something "going mainstream" is that anybody thinks they can do it, or they don't understand that the premise isn't what makes something good, or they don't understand what's good about it. I thought Loki and Spider-Man: No Way Home did good things with the concept of 'variants'; the first four seasons of Fringe (2008) were outstanding; and I think Everything Everywhere All at Once was literally the first time in my entire life that my favorite movie of a given year actually won the Best Picture Oscar. otoh, it sounds like The Flash is a trainwreck (I haven't seen it), and the MCU's multiverse story is teetering on the edge of the Abyss.

As with so many things, when it's good, then good, but the "elevator pitch" isn't why it's good. I mean, it's not like nobody can make a good zombie series or movie ever again, but a 'zombie apocalypse' setting just isn't clever anymore. Just the opposite: A writer would have to be unusually clever to find some new angle or wrinkle, at this point. At the same time, someone who thinks a movie or series or game set during a zombie apocalypse can't be good has just as limited an imagination as the person who thinks something will be cool just because it has zombies. I used to know a guy who flatly refused to try iZombie (2015) with Rose MacGyver just because it had the word 'zombie' in the title. His loss. Fun show. Hey, come to think of it, Rose MacGyver's character in iZombie is another example of the "cute ingenue" superhero archetype. iZombie was a superhero show, btw, not a zombie apocalypse show.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes, could be. I never read the comic, so I can only comment on the show. Annie's first costume reminded me a bit of Mary Marvel. Her second, "slutty" costume made me think of Starfire (from the comics, not the cartoon or the live-action series).

I did a quick Google search to see if Starlight was inspired by a specific character, as so many of The Boys characters seem to be, but I didn't find anything. The two pages I glanced at only talked about the characters' powers. They both compared her to Doctor Light, and one of them compared her to Dazzler, so clearly they don't know anything about the character except that she has light powers. I was thinking that at the beginning of the series, she's the young ingenue - Kitty Pryde; Skye/Daisy in early seasons of Agents of SHIELD; Tom Holland's Peter Parker in Civil War and Infinity War*; Stargirl, as played by Brec Bassinger in the show; Raven, in the Titans show. She transformed pretty quickly, though, faster than those other characters have, and doesn't fit her original archetype any longer. I suppose that's true for all of the characters in The Boys. Homelander obviously isn't just Superman-if-he-were-bad anymore. He's his own man psychopath now.


* The pairing of Peter Parker and Tony Stark in those movies reminded me of the character that Robert Downey Jr played in Wonder Boys (2000), in which the young ingenue was played, in a funny coincidence, by another Peter Parker, Tobey Maguire.

Yeah the light powers of course remind of Jubilee, Dazzler and Electro but especially Jubilee to me, because I grew up watching the X-Men Saturday morning cartoon. I vaguely remember Dazzler but I haven't seen a lot of her previously. Some of the costume variations I saw when I googled her are similar to Captain Marvel, with the distinctive star logo on the chest.

As for Starlight's costume, the white suit, with the short cape and the skirt, especially with the gold boots/accents look a lot like some of those Powergirl variants you linked, including Starlight's second costume sans cape. I mean looking at those Powergirl costumes, I would be very skeptical of the creators of Starlight's costume claiming that they didn't get some ideas from one of those Powergirl costumes, they look so similar, the gold ones in particular, that if I didn't know it was Powergirl and you told me it was concept art for Starlight, I would have believed you. I didn't find the new Starlight costume "slutty" BTW, I just thought it was a normal, just more-revealing superhero costume... pretty standard fare for female superheroes.

Homelander is obviously inspired by evil Superman, but I think its clear that he is also meant to invoke Captain America. He certainly has been a fantastic villain. I think he illustrates what works so well about the "Injustice" storyline. Supes is so OP that he can get a little boring as a hero... but as a villain his OPness is great, because he is such a hopelessly powerful, terrifying adversary, which makes the heroes struggle against him so much more romantic and/or tragic. I wish that DC had followed through with the Zack Snyder storyline, which was clearly leaning into Injustice... oh well... maybe on the next reboot

I like multiverses and alternate versions of characters, conceptually.

The multiverse concept is so money... literally. Such a great idea because of the flexibility it allows with the characters and storylines. A great bonus is that it allows the writers to avoid hard reboots if they want. They can soft reboot a story/character, without having to reset the canon of the MCU/DCEU universe... like introducing the old Spidey's into the MCU for example. I've enjoyed that.

As with so many things, when it's good, then good, but the "elevator pitch" isn't why it's good. I mean, it's not like nobody can make a good zombie series or movie ever again, but a 'zombie apocalypse' setting just isn't clever anymore. Just the opposite: A writer would have to be unusually clever to find some new angle or wrinkle, at this point. At the same time, someone who thinks a movie or series or game set during a zombie apocalypse can't be good has just as limited an imagination as the person who thinks something will be cool just because it has zombies. I used to know a guy who flatly refused to try iZombie (2015) with Rose MacGyver just because it had the word 'zombie' in the title. His loss. Fun show. Hey, come to think of it, Rose MacGyver's character in iZombie is another example of the "cute ingenue" superhero archetype. iZombie was a superhero show, btw, not a zombie apocalypse show.

I don't know if this was directed at me specifically, but I think you know by now that I am one of those guys who has a negative knee jerk reaction to anything zombie, particularly when it is centered around zombies. One thing I will concede, is that I certainly enjoy some zombie-adjacent stuff like the Borg, and have enjoyed the occasional zombie-centered thing, like the zombie episode of What-If, but still, I generally don't enjoy zombie stuff and I tend to avoid it. I do however acknowledge that some zombie stuff can certainly be great to others, like Walking Dead for instance. So zombie movies/shows can definitely be good... they're just generally not my cup of tea.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Yeah the light powers of course remind of Jubilee, Dazzler and Electro but especially Jubilee to me, because I grew up watching the X-Men Saturday morning cartoon.

I thought about Jubilee, but that's a character I'm entirely unfamiliar with. Wikipedia says she was introduced in the comics in '89. I guess I'd stopped reading the comic by then, 'cause I don't remember her at all. I guess most people know her from the '92 cartoon?

I didn't find the new Starlight costume "slutty" BTW, I just thought it was a normal, just more-revealing superhero costume... pretty standard fare for female superheroes.

I think that was the point: It is pretty standard fare for women in (boys') superhero comics. Stormfront's comment that you could see Starlight's uterus in her new costume made me laugh out loud.

The multiverse concept is so money... literally. Such a great idea because of the flexibility it allows with the characters and storylines. A great bonus is that it allows the writers to avoid hard reboots if they want. They can soft reboot a story/character, without having to reset the canon of the MCU/DCEU universe... like introducing the old Spidey's into the MCU for example. I've enjoyed that.

The one criticism of the multiverse concept that I agree with is that it allows people to circumvent the consequences of a story or event, which I agree with. It brings the "no one's ever really dead in the comics" problem into the movies & shows.

I don't know if this was directed at me specifically,

It wasn't.

but I think you know by now that I am one of those guys who has a negative knee jerk reaction to anything zombie, particularly when it is centered around zombies. One thing I will concede, is that I certainly enjoy some zombie-adjacent stuff like the Borg, and have enjoyed the occasional zombie-centered thing, like the zombie episode of What-If, but still, I generally don't enjoy zombie stuff and I tend to avoid it. I do however acknowledge that some zombie stuff can certainly be great to others, like Walking Dead for instance. So zombie movies/shows can definitely be good... they're just generally not my cup of tea.

Right, the mere concept of the zombie apocalypse is no longer interesting, in itself, but that doesn't mean something with that setting can't be good. The Last of Us is good because it's well-written and well-acted, with top-notch visual design. On a superficial level, it's a patchwork quilt of Lone Wolf & Cub, The Road, and The Girl With All the Gifts, but none of that is why it's good (none of the superficial qualities of those books & films is why they're good, either, if you've seen or read any of them). It's a story about a father and daughter, about what we would do for our children. There's some stuff about accepting a responsibility you didn't ask for, about the costs of violence, and about the choices different people make about what's good for the many and what's good for the few (I just watched The Wrath of Khan again yesterday). The best comparable for The Last of Us isn't The Walking Dead, it's Children of Men. The best comparable for iZombie is probably Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the tv series, not the movie).

 

[Sommerswerd]

I think that was the point: It is pretty standard fare for women in (boys') superhero comics. Stormfront's comment that you could see Starlight's uterus in her new costume made me laugh out loud.

Stormfront is such a hater... both figuratively and literally.

The one criticism of the multiverse concept that I agree with is that it allows people to circumvent the consequences of a story or event, which I agree with. It brings the "no one's ever really dead in the comics" problem into the movies & shows.

I've heard this too and its a legitimate critique, but what I also keep in mind is that superhero, sci-fi, fantasy, supernatural, etc., movies and shows were already doing this shamelessly, using "time-travel" mechanics. Time travel had become the ultimate deus ex-machina. So its not like the multiverse concept has unleashed some heretofore unseen abomination of character resurrection, plot armor, get-out-of-jail-free (or written-into-a corner) fix/cure-all upon us. They were already doing it... not as bad as the infamous Dallas "it was all a dream" season/soft reboot... but Star Trek VOY, abused time travel mechanics like a rented mule, "Year of Hell" being a particularly stark example.

 

[tjs282]

*koff* Original Superman movie *koffkoffkoff*

 

[RobAnybody]

iZombie was a superhero show, btw, not a zombie apocalypse show.

It probably surprises no one at this point to learn that I own a Liv Moore action figure. She's holding a pair of tiny chopsticks.

 

[EgonSpengler]

It probably surprises no one at this point to learn that I own a Liv Moore action figure. She's holding a pair of tiny chopsticks.

And a tiny bottle of hot sauce?

 

[RobAnybody]

Of course! And what looks like a rice dish with a brain in it.

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[Cutlass]

The Power Girl costume variants seem to be a pretty clear inspiration for the costume(s) of Starlight in The Boys series.

The old story is that the artist decided to see how big they could make her boobs before anyone was really taking notice and asking questions.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The old story is that the artist decided to see how big they could make her boobs before anyone was really taking notice and asking questions.

"Pretty big" is of course the answer to that...

 

[Gori the Grey]

Elevator pitch:

Power Girl gets split into 38 separate Power Girls. Eventually, they figure out that the splitting occurred based on the various costumes she has worn over the years. (The 38 of them being dressed in distinct costumes is a big part of what helps them figure that out, of course). But no one of the 38 Power Girls has all of Power Girl's powers. (For comic book fans, each Power Girl has a power she used most prominently when she wore that costume). So the Power Girls have to team up (Avenger-style, Justice League-style) with one another to activate all of their/her powers. But in doing so, they actually discover that together they have more powers than she ever had when she was just one person. There's a huge Endgame-style final battle where all 38 Power Girls each contributes her power to the battle (and combines powers with some other Power Girl(s) for more-than-the-sum-of-their-parts powers). At the end, they have the option of re-morphing into a single person or remaining 38 separate heroes.

 

[Sommerswerd]

But similar to the "Tuvix" episode of Star Trek VOY, and/or the Loki series, its not really a "choice" of whether to merge into one Powergirl, but instead a mandate that is enforced upon them by the other superheroes...

 

[EgonSpengler]

Elevator pitch:

Power Girl gets split into 38 separate Power Girls. Eventually, they figure out that the splitting occurred based on the various costumes she has worn over the years. (The 38 of them being dressed in distinct costumes is a big part of what helps them figure that out, of course). But no one of the 38 Power Girls has all of Power Girl's powers. (For comic book fans, each Power Girl has a power she used most prominently when she wore that costume). So the Power Girls have to team up (Avenger-style, Justice League-style) with one another to activate all of their/her powers. But in doing so, they actually discover that together they have more powers than she ever had when she was just one person. There's a huge Endgame-style final battle where all 38 Power Girls each contributes her power to the battle (and combines powers with some other Power Girl(s) for more-than-the-sum-of-their-parts powers). At the end, they have the option of re-morphing into a single person or remaining 38 separate heroes.

But similar to the "Tuvix" episode of Star Trek VOY, and/or the Loki series, its not really a "choice" of whether to merge into one Powergirl, but instead a mandate that is enforced upon them by the other superheroes...

Perhaps the fact that at least two of the 38 Power Girls are openly Fascist could be woven into the story somehow? Something-something... we can't ignore the darker parts of ourselves, but we also can't let them run amok... something-something...

 

[Gori the Grey]

But similar to the "Tuvix" episode of Star Trek VOY, and/or the Loki series, its not really a "choice" of whether to merge into one Powergirl, but instead a mandate that is enforced upon them by the other superheroes...

No, it's a real choice, and they have to make it, among themselves. And in fact, it's the thematic center of the movie. Kind of like the Sakovia accords in Civil War: good arguments on each side, splits the parties about evenly, and even the viewer doesn't know what the "right" choice ought to be (I assume that's how the Sakovia Accords issue is supposed to work in Civil War; anyway that's how it works for me). They would be more powerful as 38, but they wouldn't be Power Girl anymore. What do?

Perhaps the fact that at least two of the 38 Power Girls are openly Fascist could be woven into the story somehow? Something-something... we can't ignore the darker parts of ourselves, but we also can't let them run amok... something-something...

Yeah, there's a ton of this all through the movie: "I'm torn," "I'm of two minds about that." It's an exploration of the "sides" of ourselves, incl. "dark side."

The original agent of the split is a being named "the Tailor," and its superpower is that it can confer super powers through costumes. Maybe it works in conjunction with another force that can do the people-splitting part of the premise. Originally the Power Girls size the Tailor up as the Big Bad (because it seems to have had the effect of diminishing Power Girl's powers; some Power Girls seem initially to have no powers whatsoever; maybe one stays that way through the end). But in fact we will learn that the Tailor is itself fighting the actual Big Bad, knows that to do so requires 38 Power Girls (and the extra powers that emerge) in order to defeat the Big Bad. So eventually they join the Tailor in battling whatever the Big Bad is. The Big Bad is probably something representing that you can only have one side to yourself. I think I'll call it Hobgoblin. (from "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"). I know Spiderman has that as a villain. So maybe "The Fool" instead. Or "the Simpleton." Kind of Borg-like, trying to reduce you from all of your individualism.

So the movie's a celebration of diversity--both the usual kind and also diversity-within-oneself.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Kind of Borg-like, trying to reduce you from all of your individualism.

What if the Big Bad is one of the Fascist Power Girls? That would only work if The Tailor isn't the one who created the 38 Power Girls in the first place*, but is trying to help her reintegrate by giving her all the different costumes.


* Maybe the 38 Power Girls weren't created deliberately: Red Kryptonite?

 

[Gori the Grey]

The fascist Power Girls threaten at one point to defect to the Simpleton. That's when one of the Power Girls who didn't think she had any powers turns out to have the power of persuasion,. She not only brings the fascist Power Girls back into the fold, but gets them to drop their fascistic tendencies. Or maybe two who hadn't thought they had any powers after the split: one brings the fascists back and another one gets them to drop their fascism. And that's important because the fascist Power Girls are among the strongest. With them on the Simpleton's side instead of on the Power Girls' side, the Simpleton will win. So that little power, of persuasion, ends up being the one that tips the tide.

The Power Girls do, in the end, decide to morph back into a single being. There's a cost. This one remaining Power Girl loses one of her super powers. But the last shot of the movie is that that Power Girl opens a walk-in closet. And it's a superhero size walk in closet, and all of the outfits are hanging there, and the implication is that the one Power Girl can henceforth (for future movies) become any of the 37 other Power Girls (with that Power Girl's combination of powers) just by putting on that costume (like different Iron Man suits with different powers).