SVN588, need feedback!

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I suppose at least some of you are trying the latest SVN version; I need some feedback about it, especially regarding balancing problems.
I've modified some parameters in SVN588 to stop most of the AI civs from falling behind in techs (if you use Tech Diffusion, of course). Is it working for you as it is working for me? I've almost finished (50 turns to go) a blitz-speed, noble-level game (mastery victory and revolution are on) and I'm having a hard time fighting against 3 other civs who are as strong as I am (and there are 20 more civs on the map). But I'd like to know other people experiences. Is it better, worse or the same as it was before? Since inflation has been changed a lot, AI should develop faster, better and pose a greater challenge to human players. At least in my experience it looks like this. What's your opinion?

 

[Aline]

I just got it downloaded and will play a game this weekend.

 

[Aline]

Ok some first impressions and random things.

-AI loves caste system(the tech) to much, often trading it for 2 or even 3 techs that cost less but acctualy do more.

-Monarchy is way better than anything for a long time makeing the goverment civic rather booring, some other options would be nice.

-On the topic of civics, there are very few late game options, all civic trees either end in the early industrial phase or have a single late game civic that is better than anything

-Deciver and seefaring are kinda meh

-Maybe give japan a decent leader

-Early game events are anoying, they are 90% negative just slowing down that game and adding frustration, maybe add some more events with a risk->reward mechanic like the herbal cure event just less op

-Turn times are okayish(i am still in the early game) but they could be faster, i know that this is a tricky one though

-I lost track of the changes at some point and did not get to test this jet, is the coinage bug fixed?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok some first impressions and random things.

-AI loves caste system(the tech) to much, often trading it for 2 or even 3 techs that cost less but acctualy do more.

There are several Techs the AI loves. Some have to do with Leaders preferences and Civilization preferences. But noted.

-Monarchy is way better than anything for a long time makeing the goverment civic rather booring, some other options would be nice.

Redoing the Civics will need some discussion

-On the topic of civics, there are very few late game options, all civic trees either end in the early industrial phase or have a single late game civic that is better than anything

That's the way Afforess designed it (WAD). But it's noted now an put on the list to look at.

-Deciever and seafaring are kinda meh

Not all Leader traits can be the same. Some weak, some middle of the road, and some strong, that's what makes up the Leader character.

-Maybe give japan a decent leader

Don't like Tokugawa?

-Early game events are anoying, they are 90% negative just slowing down that game and adding frustration, maybe add some more events with a risk->reward mechanic like the herbal cure event just less op

I can't do Events and I don't know if 45*38'N can do them either. Almost all events in AND2 were made by zappara or Ori. Events can be turned off too.

-Turn times are okayish(i am still in the early game) but they could be faster, i know that this is a tricky one though

Lots of factors for turn times, with the biggest being computer being played on. If you have a computer with less than 3GB of ram you will have turn time issues. And that is relative to the number of AI you put into the game. Too many AI cause turn slowdowns because processing demand is proportional. Even Afforess Never recommended playing with more than 28 AI. But ppl still do.

If we could get a C++ programmer on the Team then Otimizations could be implemented. Like Koshling has done for C2C.

-I lost track of the changes at some point and did not get to test this jet, is the coinage bug fixed?

Yes Coinage is fixed.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

About Caste System: AI thinks that techs giving access to weapons or new government forms are more important. And as Joseph said, it could also depend on the leader. Personally, I have never encountered such a problem with Caste. Moreover, trading techs depends also on how much a tech is already known by civilizations met. If almost nobody knows Caste System, AI will think it's more important to have it. I wouldn't change anything here. A single case reported doesn't make a change in the tech (or in trading code) necessary. AI could offer for example Caste System in exchange for Math, Alphabet and Currency (I'd say these 3 are superior techs if they're summed), but if everyone already knows these 3 techs, theire value decreases a lot. As I said, I wouldn't change anything here.

About Monarchy and civics. I'm planning on the long term to completely rework civics, but that will need some discussion, as Joseph said.

I've never worked on events but I can have a look. I wouldn't say anyway that most of them are negative. There are many of them giving food or commerce or even science. And remember that negative events also apply to AI players as well.

Turn speed could be improved but as Joseph said, it also depends on game settings. I could try to make some improvements by importing C2C code but it's not on my priority list at the moment.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

By the way, speaking of Monarchy: it HAS BEEN for a long time the best (or favourite) form of government. More details would be required anyway for any change to be made to the civic system: a savegame, for example, or at least to know what gamespeed you're playing at and from which to which turn you had to use Monarchy or you've seen AI using it. As for me, I swith to Republic/Democracy as soon as I can, so Monarchy doesn't last very long in my games.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

As for the new Civic System, this could be a good start, although it needs a lot of work to insert a new civic system in AND2: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=447181

 

[JosEPh_II]

D/Ling it now.

I would like to start by just making a few simple adjustments to the current Civic set.

Once I get this D/l'd and a chance to look it over then I can give more comments about it.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

D/Ling it now.

I would like to start by just making a few simple adjustments to the current Civic set.

Once I get this D/l'd and a chance to look it over then I can give more comments about it.

JosEPh

Be warned it won't work with AND2 because it was made for 1.76; I remember trying it a long time ago and it looked good; and anyway for the moment I also prefer some simple adjustment to the current civics. This is just a proposal that would save us to start from scratch (which can be done anyway, if we so prefer).

 

[JosEPh_II]

I want it for reference. I think I had a copy when it 1st came out. But when I had a HD Crash last year I never replaced it. So I must not have been that impressed. But then again I am "Old and Slow...."

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

By the way, one thing I'll surely do for the next update: remove commando promotion for mounted units. I remember people complaining about it and I completely agree. So if no one is opposing this proposal, I will definetly remove it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have no objection.

Down the road we might consider the notion to "nip" a couple new promos from C2C. But not the massive amount that's in there now of course.

JosEPh

 

[Aline]

Allright


Well i love monarchy for the no unhappiness in my capital feature, it allows my capital to become one hell of a city, makeing it worthwhile far longer than it should be, especaly in the early industrial phase where the extra food and health starts to kick in i can support a pretty large empire just with my mega capital, only switching out of it if my empire and army gets realy big and gold becomes a problem.
I had games where i switched out of monarchy in the digital age(or whatever the age after industrial is called) and acctualy crashed my empire so hard i had to savescum and build the globe theatre there.
This makes Monarchy a far to good builder civic for tiny to medium empires while acctualy warmogging (specificly to capture more citys) is often not realy worthwhile.

I would suggest swaping the no unhappiness for a capped bonus like +5 , this would still allow the capital to become a very good city but loose its punch later in the game.
And maybe in return remove that +1 gold cost for units, but i am unsure about that one.

As for Caste, i think i figured this one out.
If you build the oracle, you have pristhood, the requierment for caste.
So if you get the oracle you can get caste for free, caste is more expensive than most techs that come around the same time, with the exeption of bronze working and horseback riding, both somewhat isolated on the techtree and usualy not an option when the oracle is build unless you acctualy plan ahead and picked up metal casting on the way, even if you did you probly do not whant to trade it away.
Caste however is safe to trade early, so if you oracle caste and have writing or know some one who is willing to trade it, you can turn your oracle in to many many techs by picking up caste.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Why worry about getting the Oracle every time? All you need to do is get to Alphabet 1st and build spies. Send them out and steal the other Civs blind. No trading needed just a strong Army.
If you are 1st to Alphabet the other Civs have No Spies till they research it.

Just did it in my current test game. Pacal kept offering Caste for Bronze working. I sent a spy into his nearest city let the spy sit for about 3 turns to get max benefit and stole his precious Caste. In the mean time used the spy to scout his other near cities. He was trying to cut me off from the rest of the Continent by building next to my borders and not strengthening the Area around his Capital. I got Axe and Iron before him so Pacal went Bye-Bye. Pacal had 3 1 or 2 pop cities on my Border. I sent 2 Axemen with 2 promotions each sent them south and picked off his Javelineers escorting his workers. And then took out his archers and warriors guarding the city.

What really needs adjustment is the time it takes to build anything. Build times are too long for Epic and Normal.

Resources: Horse, and Copper seem too rare. Hemp and Tobacco too much.

Jungle Camps: Someone gutted the original JCs in this Mod. They are very weak and do not give the AI a viable choice against Chopping all Jungle.

Too Much early imo, and with the added unhealthiness given to Jungles makes Jungle starts very hard on the AI and Player. Jungles should comprise about 50% of the mid map (equatorial zone). And because of the way Jungles are used I would bet that most players do not use Tropical vs Temperate for Map set ups.

I'm testing some revisions for Jungle and Jungle Camps to get better utilization.

JosEPh

Edit: Aline there is now SVN 590 available that made some small adjustments to the Gov't Civics. Might want to Update.

 

[Aline]

Agreed on the horse issue, i think it has been adressed before.
Also i have the feeling that city ruins are to powerfull, they constantly spit out treasures and tech boosts, i would suggest limiting this to one event per ruin.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Agreed on the horse issue, i think it has been adressed before.
Also i have the feeling that city ruins are to powerfull, they constantly spit out treasures and tech boosts, i would suggest limiting this to one event per ruin.

Never had problems with horses in any of my games. And never ever had too many treasures from city ruins. I think it happened to me only a couple of times to find a treasure in my entire civilization experience (hundreds of games). So I suppose it's a mapscript problem and not a mod problem. Have you tried other mapscripts?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

What really needs adjustment is the time it takes to build anything. Build times are too long for Epic and Normal.

I'm currently working on it It needs a careful balancing because speeding up units and buildings speeds up a bit research too, which is an unwanted side effect. I'm doing some test and will release an update in a few days I think.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes maps do make a difference.

I got my 1st AND2.0 Treasure today! Used it to get National Treasury. Came in handy as I was running out of money after taking over Pacal's Empire. And the irony is it came from his 1 pop city that I invaded 1st.

Also i have the feeling that city ruins are to powerfull, they constantly spit out treasures and tech boosts, i would suggest limiting this to one event per ruin.

So you can get multiple from the same ruins? Hmmm, did not know that.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm currently working on it It needs a careful balancing because speeding up units and buildings speeds up a bit research too, which is an unwanted side effect. I'm doing some test and will release an update in a few days I think.

Thing is I'm finding it more pronounced in the early Eras. And what file is this in? The EraInfos file? I couldn't find any thing to try to adjust in the BuildingInfos file.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Thing is I'm finding it more pronounced in the early Eras. And what file is this in? The EraInfos file? I couldn't find any thing to try to adjust in the BuildingInfos file.

JosEPh

I know, it gets better while you advance through eras. Anyway relevant tags are
<iConstructPercent> and <iTrainPercent>, they're found in erainfos and gamespeedinfo xml. Hopefully, I'll fix them in my next update