SVN588, need feedback!

[JosEPh_II]

@45*38'N,

Did some testing last night on Epic game speed in GameSpeedInfos.xml.

The <iTrainPercent) was set at 195. I reduced it to 165.
<iConstruct, iBuild, iImprove, iCreate were all set to 264, reduced to 200.

These settings reduced build times, for new buildings, Units, and Tile imorovements.

So for example 1 worker building a Jungle camp was taking 21 turns. Ater the adjustment it went down to 16 turns.
Building the Agora in capital city was listed as 10 turns (relative to Hammers available not city) reduced build time to 8 turns.

<Type>GAMESPEED_EPIC</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>300</iGrowthPercent>
			[color=red]<iTrainPercent>195</iTrainPercent>
			<iConstructPercent>264</iConstructPercent>
			<iCreatePercent>264</iCreatePercent>[/color]
			<iResearchPercent>300</iResearchPercent>
			[color=red]<iBuildPercent>264</iBuildPercent>
			<iImprovementPercent>264</iImprovementPercent>[/color]

Only adjusted those values in red. Did not test the rest. Although Growth and research need tested too.

JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

@45*38'N,

Did some testing last night on Epic game speed in GameSpeedInfos.xml.

The <iTrainPercent) was set at 195. I reduced it to 165.
<iConstruct, iBuild, iImprove, iCreate were all set to 264, reduced to 200.

These settings reduced build times, for new buildings, Units, and Tile imorovements.

So for example 1 worker building a Jungle camp was taking 21 turns. Ater the adjustment it went down to 16 turns.
Building the Agora in capital city was listed as 10 turns (relative to Hammers available not city) reduced build time to 8 turns.

<Type>GAMESPEED_EPIC</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>300</iGrowthPercent>
			[color=red]<iTrainPercent>195</iTrainPercent>
			<iConstructPercent>264</iConstructPercent>
			<iCreatePercent>264</iCreatePercent>[/color]
			<iResearchPercent>300</iResearchPercent>
			[color=red]<iBuildPercent>264</iBuildPercent>
			<iImprovementPercent>264</iImprovementPercent>[/color]

Only adjusted those values in red. Did not test the rest. Although Growth and research need tested too.

JosEPh

To tell the truth, I'm not sure I like these changes very much and for different reasons:
1. Every parameter you've changed was proportional for different gamespeed. So reducing a parameter in epic means it will be necessary to reduce the same parameter for every other gamespeed proportionally.
2. While building a Jungle Camp in 21 turns is maybe too much, building agora in 10 turns on epic is not so bad and not so different from 8 turns. Moreover, we could simply reduce jungle camp building times, instead of reducing building times for every other improvement, even where maybe there's no need to speed up things.
3. I'd prefer to modify building/training times in erainfos because I suppose in your test game you haven't reach industrial or modern era yet and I think in those eras building/training times are ok, but in changing gamespeedinfo, you change building/training times in the whole game hence speeding up too much building/training in the later eras.

If you let me do it, I'll update these files soon.

Edit: By the way, these values were not chosen randomly; they are mostly the original values chosen by Afforess, rescaled on the new number-of-turns I've introduced some SVN version ago
Edit 2: Research, Culture and I think Growth too are better to be left alone as they are. Especially Research. It's been a hell of a long work to make AI and human player to have an adequate research rate, so I'd prefer not to change this parameter, at least in Gamespeed or erainfos xmls. I currently have some more improvements to do about culture, but I'm still testing them.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here's my proposal (but I'm still testing it)

<Type>GAMESPEED_EPIC</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EPIC_HELP</Help>
<iGrowthPercent>300</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>195</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>220</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>220</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>300</iResearchPercent>
<iBuildPercent>220</iBuildPercent>
<iImprovementPercent>220</iImprovementPercent>

and proportionally for every other gamespeed. Moreover, I've reduced by a further 10% construct, create, build and improvement percent for ancient and classical eras.
In my next update, if there are no objections, I will remove the free commando promotion for almost every unit (mostly mounted and tank units); I will leave the commando promotion for spies and similar. IMHO a free commando promotion is a bit like cheating. IIRC Commando is a 4th or 5th level promotion. We could consider lowering this level but I'll wait for opinions on this one.
I've also removed "Scrub fallout rapidly" because it makes no sense and it's the same as "scrub fallout", only faster. I also need to look on the Aegis Cruiser / Missile Cruiser which looks too similar to me.

Edit: I've tried to modify the same parameters you've modified; with the exception of trainpercent, which needed a good acceleration in every era, I've reduced a bit the acceleration you've proposed but I've compensated in ancient and classical eras. I'm currently testing it and it looks promising.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Oh you can do it.

I was just giving some observations.

Nor did I push any changes to the SVN in this matter. You said you had a handle on it. That's enough for me.

I'm still getting used to simple xml changes. 1 tag with a missing </ and it created quite a mess for SVN 591.

In my Epic Test game I've just hit Medieval Era at 375AD. I'm in 1st place by only 37 points and in 4th place in Empire size (11 cities). But I'm prepping to take a Barb City that will cut Tokugawa off from the rest of my end of the Archipelago we share.

But one thing that stands out about the current state of the mod is the obvious lack of production. Hammers are very hard to come by.

And I finally have found a Horse resource!

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

Could you guys re-activate fixed borders as a game option? Culture is an integral part of the game, and for this reason alone I am playing 1.75C (as are many others).

 

[JosEPh_II]

I personally would prefer that AND2.0 went back to FB being an Option. Along with some others that ended up being "default" before the Mod switched hands.

If 45*38'N agrees it can be done.

JosEPh

 

[Sgtslick]

I really think you need to adjust the civ4handicap.xml joseph. I just overwrite with my own copy each time I update svn but in particularly you should look at this.

Chang noble & prince to:
<iHealthBonus>4</iHealthBonus>
<iHappyBonus>5</iHappyBonus>

Monarch 3 & 5
Emperor 3 & 4
Immortal 2 & 4
Deity 2 & 3
______________

Currently they're all set to 2 & 4. This shouldn't be uniform and its a bit on the low side imo.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Have you noticed that C2C has the same thing for these values? This could've been a carryover from Afforess' merging the C2C AI improvements.

Currently AND is pretty austere when it come to Health and Happiness. I know you suggested this to 45*38'N but he wasn't to receptive iirc. I'll put it on My list, but no promises.

Currently the top of the list is getting build times in line with game speed. And 45*38'N is in charge of that.

JosEPh

 

[Sgtslick]

In c2c its much much easier to get happy/healthy especially early on. In ROM AND if you don't get a religion you basically will struggle to get past pop 6 or something (unless you get some good resources).

What about increasing the number of free units early on too by 1 or 2. Sometimes its rather easy to go bankrupt and such a small change can make a world of difference.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The Religion issue in AND is what I finally got changed in C2C. They all path together and that has to be broken up so that the Tech Leader doesn't grab all the religions. The AND and OR Tech Prereqs have to be changed. This is also on my list of to dos.

About the addition of more "free" units early, is this for starting in any Era except Ancient?

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

I personally would prefer that AND2.0 went back to FB being an Option. Along with some others that ended up being "default" before the Mod switched hands.

If 45*38'N agrees it can be done.

JosEPh

Actually I have not come across anyone who prefers it to be non optional so I think this is a no brainer.

I do have a suggestion with regard to capturing cities if fixed borders would be made optional and a player chooses to not enable it:

It would be good to have fixed borders apply to captured cities regardless of if FB is enabled or not until your civ's population makes up for over 50% of the citizens in that captured city. Then the normal culture rules could apply to push borders. This would enable captured cities to be of some use when FB is turned off. I believe in fact that the impossibility of keeping captured cities deep in enemy territory without FB was the reason FB was implemented in the first place.

This could offer a viable solution which would enable players to play culture style (pacifist / artists guilds etc) and still capture cities deep in enemy territory without the worry of being swamped by enemy culture. Get the best of both worlds I say!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Turning the Option back on for FB should not be a problem. I just need 45*38'N to agree with it. And I have yet to ask him about it too.

For the 2nd part, that I can't do just yet. Maybe 45* has that skill set? If it involves SDK or Python I'm as lost as a newbie can be.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

@45*38'N,
We need to seriously turn on Max Compat as the Default method of saving.


If you use Max Compat and later need to load an autosave the auto is Not in Max Compat mode. This can cause save game problems and possible CTDs.

By setting Max Compat as the default save method then both regular and auto will be in the same format. And if a problem arises we can always ask Koshling about it.

45* wrote:Moreover, we could simply reduce jungle camp building times,...

I need some info on this please.
JosEPh

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

@Arkatakor & Joseph; actually, I'm still unsure on how Fixed Borders works. I mean, IIRC, fixed border was now enforced in AND2, BUT only Despotism, Monarchy, Fascist and Intolerant really cause Fixed Borders to apply. So IMHO, there would be no need to make it an option as I think that these form of goverment should have FB anyway. But I think we can discuss about it and make it an option anyway so anyone wanting to play with or without it can have a choice.

@Sgtslick; I've noted your post about health and happiness but I don't like very much the idea of changing them. I actually don't see any reason to do it. First, I have no problem with unhealthiness or unhappiness (playing at noble); second, now that Joseph has removed unhealtiness from jungle, there is already less unhealtiness; third, there's no need for EVERY parameter to be different for different difficulty levels: on the contrary, if you modify EVERY parameter, you unbalance the game too much, making it too easy or too hard. Handicapinfo.xml still needs some balancing, but IMHO making AI create units, buildings and techs faster or slower is more than enough to set different difficuly levels, without unbalancing the game; fourth, HAS BEEN a problem during mankind's evolution.
As for building times, as I supposed speeding them up also made research almost 1.5 times faster, so I'm counterbalancing this effect. Hopefully I'll be done during the weekend.

@Joseph; I'm also planning to change the tech tree regarding religions founding, we'll have to discuss about that. As for MaxComp, IIRC it's just an xml change, I'll have a look. As for Jungle Camp building times, it can be changed in civ4buildinfos.xml; I haven't done it for the moment as I've simply accelerated building times in gamespeed, but it can be done in other ways as I said.

Sorry guys if I'm not here every day but work is keeping me very busy lately. TGIF.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Jungle Camp build times are in line with all other tile improvement build times. So what you are working on is all that is really needed. JC do not need to be sped up if Everything is being adjusted.

At least satrapper likes what we're doing.

Yes Max Compat is just changing a 0 to a 1. But I wasn't going to do it till you agreed with it.

I'm retired so I don't have that "work" problem any more.

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

@Arkatakor & Joseph; actually, I'm still unsure on how Fixed Borders works. I mean, IIRC, fixed border was now enforced in AND2, BUT only Despotism, Monarchy, Fascist and Intolerant really cause Fixed Borders to apply. So IMHO, there would be no need to make it an option as I think that these form of goverment should have FB anyway. But I think we can discuss about it and make it an option anyway so anyone wanting to play with or without it can have a choice.

The problem with Fixed Borders is that the AI almost always has at least one of the Civics that you mentioned active at any given moment. Thus for all practical purposes FB applies nearly all the time and voids strategies of culture bombing your opponents thru pacificsm + artist guilds + sistine chapel (temples + monastaries) etc which was an integral part of the game. Thus for this game to achieve anywhere near the greatness of 1.75C it would be great to have this optional again as it was in 1.75C. As mentioned previously I have not come across a single player on this forum who was strongly against keeping it non optional - quite on the contrary. So it would really be great if you chose to re-instate it as an option

 

[JosEPh_II]

From what I've been able to see so far is that FB was changed from an add-on and added in various files in a line by line format.

fixed border was now enforced in AND2, BUT only Despotism, Monarchy, Fascist and Intolerant really cause Fixed Borders to apply.

I have not been able to find an Option "switch" like other options.

I've had this "battle" before in C2C, where some of the Team wanted FB incorporated into C2C by default. But thankfully back then they accepted the oppositions position to keep it an Option.

I personally do not like FB in any form as for me it took away the original CIV IV/BtS Culture options. I also feel it destroyed Cultural Victory condition.

But FB was one of Afforess' made modmods and since this mod is his creation I can see the opposition to changing it in this regard. Even though I argued against it's inclusion even with him back then.

While on this subject, back towards the end of Afforess' active participation in AND 1.76 he gave control to os79. os79 made several major changes before he left so his imprint is on the mod too. Now I said that to ask this question, "What is the Goal of AND2.0"? To just make obvious AI improvements and stick to the course. Or will we evolve?

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

I personally do not like FB in any form as for me it took away the original CIV IV/BtS Culture options. I also feel it destroyed Cultural Victory condition.

This pretty much sums up how most of us feel concerning this subject.

Now I said that to ask this question, "What is the Goal of AND2.0"? To just make obvious AI improvements and stick to the course. Or will we evolve?

I understood that refinement would be the main goal. I am not sure if 45°38'N-13°47'E had other intentions?

That said I would be happy to propose certain improvements which I feel would be easy to implement and improve the game somewhat.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I personally do not like FB in any form as for me it took away the original CIV IV/BtS Culture options. I also feel it destroyed Cultural Victory condition.

I personally do like FB, but that's a matter of opinion. So I think the best course of action is to make FB an option again.

"What is the Goal of AND2.0"? To just make obvious AI improvements and stick to the course. Or will we evolve?

I've been asking this question myself. Right now, I'd say we can fix problems we encounter and introduce some improvement (Jungle Camps, speed of production and so on). In a second stage, we can improve the game by splitting the tech tree for religions for example and reworking civics. Before we begin this second part, I'd prefer to release a definitive AND2.1 so that people don't have to use SVN (that's because many people still don't know or don't want to use SVN). Then we can start working on AND2.2 which will include major changes like civics. Where are we going from there? I don't know. But I frankly don't like very much the idea of an ever changing mod like C2C. At a certain point development must come to an end, IMO.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

That said I would be happy to propose certain improvements which I feel would be easy to implement and improve the game somewhat.

Fire away, we can discuss and eventually put them on the to-do-list