Sweden

[void_genesis]

Just nearly finished a Sweden game, king, standard size and speed. I went for a culture/tourism victory to make use of the extra GPP from allies. I grabbed four city places very quickly, upsetting my neighbors, but then stopped. Nearby Russia and Germany attacked a few times but I held them off, managing to be allies in between wars. I had heaps of deer and truffles so took food and culture on camps pantheon, to give massive growth (up to pop 36 in my biggest city at 1900). I have grabbed all the extra great work wonders, filled tradition, patronage, aesthetics, rationalism, opened imperialism for the louvre, then went freedom. Late game the ideology game has caused lots of conflict, but I have managed to keep a few allies. I don't think the extra GPP on allies is a boring UA since it adds an extra element of focus on diplomacy, particularly since it is hard to be friendly with everyone at once. The caroleans are rolling out now to push back against a double DOW and protect some CS allies and seem strong enough but not all that interesting. Maybe they could do with a more active and synergistic role-> maybe increasing GPP when they win a battle? The Skola are solid enough but don't really change my gameplay.

 

[void_genesis]

Before I forget I noticed that while I could upgrade through Carolean units I couldn't build them when they were my melee unit tech level- simply didn't show up on the build list on any cities. Must be a minor bug....?

 

[Funak]

Before I forget I noticed that while I could upgrade through Carolean units I couldn't build them when they were my melee unit tech level- simply didn't show up on the build list on any cities. Must be a minor bug....?

You not being able to build your unique unit is not a minor bug, that's a major bug

 

[Gazebo]

So...now that Sweden has gone from Nobel Peace prize to warmonger, maybe we should make this Gustavus's war theme?

https://youtu.be/WZMY-YXLa38



G

 

[Funak]

So...now that Sweden has gone from Nobel Peace prize to warmonger, maybe we should make this Gustavus's war theme?

https://youtu.be/WZMY-YXLa38

They have one about Gustavus as well, would be kinda weird having a song about Charles XII as a theme for Gustavus

Besides, the Swedish version is a lot better.

 

[hokath]

The intro even sounds like it could be in civ (before the drum kit gets let loose)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw4bGBDKrPs

edit: he absolutely destroyed me last game. Got pikemen a bit before me and attacked. Thought I could hold it off and then the UA proc'd... rip

 

[Funak]

The intro even sounds like it could be in civ (before the drum kit gets let loose)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw4bGBDKrPs

edit: he absolutely destroyed me last game. Got pikemen a bit before me and attacked. Thought I could hold it off and then the UA proc'd... rip

You're right about that.

Then again the current Swedish war-theme is one of the better ones in the game

 

[Gazebo]

They have one about Gustavus as well, would be kinda weird having a song about Charles XII as a theme for Gustavus

Besides, the Swedish version is a lot better.

I like the Gustavus one, but I enjoyed Carolus's theme more.

G

 

[Funak]

I like the Gustavus one, but I enjoyed Carolus's theme more.

Most Sabaton music is pretty nice, I do agree that the Carolus theme is probably better than the Gustavus one, although I still think the Gustavus one would make more sense with him as the leader

 

[BliTTzZ]

Don't you think that caroleans are not in their place historically? Like they are more equal to fusiliers than tercios. I'm not sure if it's the right topic for questions like this one. In that case I apologize.

 

[Funak]

Don't you think that caroleans are not in their place historically? Like they are more equal to fusiliers than tercios. I'm not sure if it's the right topic for questions like this one. In that case I apologize.

The thing that started this was the absolute weirdness that the American Minutemen unlocked at gunpowder and the Carolean at Rifling, which makes absolutely no sense considering they were active at around the same time. Now they kinda once again unlock weirdly far apart, but I'm not really sure moving them would be the best solution to that. (also worth noting that they were active around the same time as the musketeers and that the impi were active during the 1800s (way later).


To simplify, Caroleans were active during the late 1600s and Fusiliers references to units active in the 1800s.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Is it just me or are Swedish uniques (except for UA) pretty worthless?

Pretty much nothing of value but March on an UU that unlocks this late is a bit underwhelming - you always have March on the units you've used as military by this point anyway, especially since you're playing a civ that will, by this time, get 2-3 GG spawns at least.

Skola is awful. 5 pop for 1 culture for a civ that goes Authority ends up giving you very little, especially when the game is already coming to an end. It's way less culture than 3 eras earlier UBs like Burial Tomb get. The Science you gain is sweet and all, but insignificant at this point.

Suggestions:

Up Skola to give slightly more Culture, perhaps add some additional gold/GP%/something
Add to the Carolean an additional Great Generals I (or II) promotion for maximum UA synergy that Sweden will look forward to

 

[Funak]

Is it just me or are Swedish uniques (except for UA) pretty worthless?

Pretty much nothing of value but March on an UU that unlocks this late is a bit underwhelming - you always have March on the units you've used as military by this point anyway, especially since you're playing a civ that will, by this time, get 2-3 GG spawns at least.

I still don't agree with your assessment that the promotion is worthless because you should already have it by now, units die and there are other promotions to go for, even other promotion-routes, however
March have lost a whole lot of its original power in the transition to VP, and now recently received another nerf in the form of a combatpenalty on the promotion it self. I definitely don't think the unit can compete with the other same-era units like the Impi or the Musketeer, even the samurai feels more powerful.

So in short I agree that the unit needs to change, but I don't agree why.

Skola is awful. 5 pop for 1 culture for a civ that goes Authority ends up giving you very little, especially when the game is already coming to an end. It's way less culture than 3 eras earlier UBs like Burial Tomb get. The Science you gain is sweet and all, but insignificant at this point.

Not really sure I would call the beginning of the industrial era 'the game coming to an end' ^^, but yeah this building suffers from a distinct lack of either base-yields on a unique ability.

Suggestions:

Up Skola to give slightly more Culture, perhaps add some additional gold/GP%/something
Add to the Carolean an additional Great Generals I (or II) promotion for maximum UA synergy that Sweden will look forward to

Think the Carolean actually needs a combat promotion maybe Charge (to represent their charging nature) or armor plating (Immortal promotion) to compensate for the lowered defense of march? Don't get me wrong I understand that a great generals promotion would probably be better, but I don't really see that as very thematic.

As for the Skola, as mentioned earlier, base-yields wouldn't hurt. As for abilities, you could maybe have something that gives some form of yields when a GP is born? Or Expended?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

One way the Skola could benefit the War UA is by having some elements of the Military Academy: more XP or Land Unit %modifier.

But since it comes in Industrial, it might just be better to make it available 1 Tech earlier.

 

[Gazebo]

Is it just me or are Swedish uniques (except for UA) pretty worthless?

Pretty much nothing of value but March on an UU that unlocks this late is a bit underwhelming - you always have March on the units you've used as military by this point anyway, especially since you're playing a civ that will, by this time, get 2-3 GG spawns at least.

Skola is awful. 5 pop for 1 culture for a civ that goes Authority ends up giving you very little, especially when the game is already coming to an end. It's way less culture than 3 eras earlier UBs like Burial Tomb get. The Science you gain is sweet and all, but insignificant at this point.

Suggestions:

Up Skola to give slightly more Culture, perhaps add some additional gold/GP%/something
Add to the Carolean an additional Great Generals I (or II) promotion for maximum UA synergy that Sweden will look forward to

The UU is weaker. The UA + UU is very strong.

The UB is boring, but very potent.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

The UU is weaker. The UA + UU is very strong.

The UB is boring, but very potent.

G

The UU is awful and the UA applies to every melee unit in the game anyway. It's just +10% attack power and nothing more, that's worth less than any real unit promotion. The unit does get bonus 10 XP once in a blue moon (an old one might have March already tho), but a new unit will still have missed out on 1-2 GG spawns. Even with that +10% attack power Carolean is still worse than any other Renaissance UU - and that's considering him with the UA.

Also in the case of Burial Tomb I've seen you talk differently - that a very strong UA effect can be added to an already decent UB (because I doubt 1F 2C 2T UB in classical era would be that bad by itself when comparing it to other UBs of that era - more boring, yes, but more reliable, requiring no effort and buffing up your Tourism). In Sweden's case it's just a very meh UA effect added to one really terrible UU. If Carolean should be so weak because he has a mere +10% attack power in the UA, shouldn't Burial Tomb get nerfed if we used the exact same reasoning?

I'd understand if we were talking about Zulu because in their case I agree - Impi can't be super good because their Barracks promotions are REALLY brutal OP (and Impi is still better than Carolean), but in the case of Sweden it's just 10% attack power. That's less than a Morale promotion because that one works both in Defence and Offence.

The Skola is both boring and weak. There's nothing potent in it, it won't change anything with those yields - there's too little of them and Sweden should typically go Authority, meaning your pop is unlikely to be very high. Its so bad in fact, it's comparable to the Chinese UB Thing that is 3+ eras earlier (or was it changed again?).

 

[Gazebo]

The UU is awful and the UA applies to every melee unit in the game anyway. It's just +10% attack power and nothing more, that's worth less than any real unit promotion. The unit does get bonus 10 XP once in a blue moon (an old one might have March already tho), but a new unit will still have missed out on 1-2 GG spawns. Even with that +10% attack power Carolean is still worse than any other Renaissance UU - and that's considering him with the UA.

If Sweden, intelligently, holds off on heavy military investment and war until the Renaissance, it will get rapid GGs and be able to create units with a tier 3 promotion right off the bat. That seems fine and flavorful to me.

Also in the case of Burial Tomb I've seen you talk differently - that a very strong UA effect can be added to an already decent UB (because I doubt 1F 2C 2T UB in classical era would be that bad by itself when comparing it to other UBs of that era - more boring, yes, but more reliable, requiring no effort and buffing up your Tourism).

Nope. I said that the UA + UB for Egypt is intentional, potent, and fine. I say that the Skola, with its pop-based yields (i.e. yields that scale, rather than static yields) is fine. Apples and oranges here.

In Sweden's case it's just a very meh UA effect added to one really terrible UU. If Carolean should be so weak because he has a mere +10% attack power in the UA, shouldn't Burial Tomb get nerfed if we used the exact same reasoning?

What? No. You are arguing apples and oranges.

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

If Sweden, intelligently, holds off on heavy military investment and war until the Renaissance, it will get rapid GGs and be able to create units with a tier 3 promotion right off the bat. That seems fine and flavorful to me.

That's a lot of time to hold off, especially considering you probably took Authority and it must have been a very choice subpar for those 4 eras. Will that 30 XP even pay off all that you've lost and how much you've slowed down your empire? Doesn't seem like a worthy trade-off to me.

It's not France - they really can delay their plans because the UA boost seems to get stronger later. With France you get a huge power spike at early Medieval, at which point money, culture and food come to you very easily so it's not a big issue delaying stuff as them - in fact it's wise. But as Sweden you delay only to gain one easy to get promotion for free.

Seriously, with Barracks (+ Armoury, esp with Order but not really needed) and thanks to free shock, you need to use your Sword/Longsword just for a second until he turns into a Marching guy. Both a (freshly) recruited Longsword and fresh Carolean gain precisely one promotion compared to a "clean slate" unit.

Nope. I said that the UA + UB for Egypt is intentional, potent, and fine. I say that the Skola, with its pop-based yields (i.e. yields that scale, rather than static yields) is fine. Apples and oranges here.

Well, to match the power of Burial Tomb, Skola needs 35 pop (for Culture) in a city.
To get +5 science compared to Public School, I think it's 21?

If you've gone Authority (into Piety I assume cuz it's the wide tree), you're not really going to have 35 pop anywhere at Industrial or, at most, in one city.

The rest will be 15+, likely in 20s.

What? No. You are arguing apples and oranges.

G

Not really apples and oranges as both are Uniques, except one gets barely anything from his UA and is very weak compared to fellow Uniques (even those replacing the same unit) while the other gets good stuff from the UA and could stand its own ground against fellow Uniques even with no UA.

 

[Gazebo]

That's a lot of time to hold off, especially considering you probably took Authority and it must have been a very choice subpar for those 4 eras. Will that 30 XP even pay off all that you've lost and how much you've slowed down your empire? Doesn't seem like a worthy trade-off to me.

You don't have to go Authority with Sweden – you could go Progress and go fairly wide, for example, then transition that into Piety and Imperialism.

Let's be clear, though – March is a promotion that all units can get, but at level 3 that's a lot of free XP that you then don't have to spend on the promotion. I'm not saying that the UU is perfect, but free level 3 promotions (that don't disappear on upgrade) can be quite potent.

Well, to match the power of Burial Tomb, Skola needs 35 pop (for Culture) in a city.
To get +5 science compared to Public School, I think it's 21?

If you've gone Authority (into Piety I assume cuz it's the wide tree), you're not really going to have 35 pop anywhere at Industrial or, at most, in one city.

The rest will be 15+, likely in 20s.

The thing about Egypt, though, is that its UA is globally-competitive. If they get shut down on Wonders that hurts. A lot. Sweden's is not dependent on anyone or anything else, other than its own conquest capacity. I generally try to make UBs for warmonger civs a little weaker to compensate for this as well as the fact that warmongers tend to have very large empires. I'm by no means arguing that the Skola is the strongest UB - it isn't - but you also have to be careful with UBs that are strong on wide empires.

G

 

[pandasnail]

So am I the only person who likes the Skola? I mean yes I had like 25 30 cities when I pressed the 'Give all cities a Skola' button and playing on Marathon speed, it has been a long long time since I had to wait until the Modern Era to get my Ideology, that matters too perhaps. With those caveats, I definitely noticed and enjoyed the culture boost, the most important yield in the game. Maybe less so now with the GM switch.

And if one isn't playing above level, getting 25 30 cities shouldn't be that hard, considering they have the best catapults in the game, the best trebuchets in the game, and maybe the best Horsemen in the game since they have the normal 4 move of course. Probably not, but second. I will say I don't understand the idea of waiting until the Ren to attack when they have such elite early game weapons tho. Which as Swag says, creates issues with March. He's just, imo, just drastically overstating the issue. Either pick something else or deal with it. Neither is an untenable option.