Sweden

So am I the only person who likes the Skola? I mean yes I had like 25 30 cities when I pressed the 'Give all cities a Skola' button and playing on Marathon speed, it has been a long long time since I had to wait until the Modern Era to get my Ideology, that matters too perhaps. With those caveats, I definitely noticed and enjoyed the culture boost, the most important yield in the game. Maybe less so now with the GM switch.

And if one isn't playing above level, getting 25 30 cities shouldn't be that hard, considering they have the best catapults in the game, the best trebuchets in the game, and maybe the best Horsemen in the game since they have the normal 4 move of course. Probably not, but second. I will say I don't understand the idea of waiting until the Ren to attack when they have such elite early game weapons tho. Which as Swag says, creates issues with March. He's just, imo, just drastically overstating the issue. Either pick something else or deal with it. Neither is an untenable option.

Looked at Skola numbers, the current CBO numbers aren't what I have on my sheet, so I think that at some point I failed to record them properly. Should be 1 culture per 3, 1 science per 2. I'll update for next time. I think the Carolean is fine, however.

G
 
Looked at Skola numbers, the current CBO numbers aren't what I have on my sheet, so I think that at some point I failed to record them properly. Should be 1 culture per 3, 1 science per 2. I'll update for next time. I think the Carolean is fine, however.

G

Well, that certainly will alleviate any concerns its not good enough imo at least.
 
Looked at Skola numbers, the current CBO numbers aren't what I have on my sheet, so I think that at some point I failed to record them properly. Should be 1 culture per 3, 1 science per 2. I'll update for next time. I think the Carolean is fine, however.

G

With Skola that strong Carolean will at least be partially compensated for - he'll still be greatly inferior to all the other UUs of the era even with the UA accounted for, but at least you get a UB that fits the Era power wise and doesn't feel like it'd be more fitting as a Medieval/Renaissance UB at most.
 
I've played with the changed up Sweden (I changed XML or SQL, forgot, to make Skola give 1 science per 2 pop and 1 c per 3 pop as you've said it should be).

In my opinion that new Skola is decent. Not the greatest building in the game (because it's so late), but very good. No problems here.

I feel the Carolean is still bad, UA or not. It's by far the worst UU in the game even if you count the tiny UA benefit as a part of his power. In my opinion the desired effect of making Sweden tempted to not fight until Renaissance would be achieved more easily if Carolean got free Shock I + Drill I
This way an old, medieval Longsword/Swordsman upgraded to a Carolean will lose out on a free promotion (besides March) if he had gotten Drill, and Pikes into Carolean would possibly lose 3 whole free promos, therefore making them far, far inferior to Renaissance-gotten fresh Caroleans who would rush through the promotion tree like madmen.
 
Even if the Carolean isn't such a huge upgrade over a regular tercio, but it is still an improved tercio, which is the backbone of any Renaissance army.
I prefer a slightly better unit that I use a lot over a heavily improved auxiliary (ranged cav for example).
 
Carolean discussion has flared up in the main forum. I had some thoughts I wanted to share, but I'm bringing it here which is at least nominally the place we are supposed to argue about Sweden's balance.

Caroleans were pretty decent in vanilla Civ V, but a lot of people think they are quite bad in VP. I have to say I agree. Basically, a Carolean is a Tercio with March, since the CS boost is so small as to make very little difference at the time you're actually using them. This means that the Carolean's fortunes rise and fall with March, and March has been heavily nerfed in VP. First off, there's the defensive strength reduction, which is not very big but large enough to erase the Carolean's CS boost. Second, there's the reduction in healing from being in enemy lands. Third, there's the improved AI which is more likely to land killing blows. All of these effects make March much more evenly balanced with other possible promotions, but also make it less attractive as a selling point.

Which is to say, I think the Carolean problem can be solved quite effectively by giving them Survivalism 1. Or, alternatively, a nonce promotion that does the same thing, but which doesn't lead to Survivalism 2 etc, doesn't stick around after upgrading to avoid Gazebo's "unique units not unique unit lines" objection, and possibly increases defense strength less. This addresses all of the ways they're weaker than they "should" be: the defense boost negates the penalty from March, the healing boost gets them back up to neutral strength healing, and the increased longevity means they're more likely to survive a couple of turns and then get out of active combat long enough to heal.
 
I dunno. I feel like focusing on being aggressive is a better way to go about it. What about letting them heal from destroying an enemy unit, and giving them Charge? Or just giving them Overrun? It's still fairly unique, considering they can't normally get it as an infantry unit, but it should be fitting with their historical theme and Sweden's playstyle.
 
I felt like Glidergun at first ("just make their March useful"), but reading this makes me think it would be more fun of a UU ("Make them more aggressive").
 
Carolean discussion has flared up in the main forum. I had some thoughts I wanted to share, but I'm bringing it here which is at least nominally the place we are supposed to argue about Sweden's balance.

Caroleans were pretty decent in vanilla Civ V, but a lot of people think they are quite bad in VP. I have to say I agree. Basically, a Carolean is a Tercio with March, since the CS boost is so small as to make very little difference at the time you're actually using them. This means that the Carolean's fortunes rise and fall with March, and March has been heavily nerfed in VP. First off, there's the defensive strength reduction, which is not very big but large enough to erase the Carolean's CS boost. Second, there's the reduction in healing from being in enemy lands. Third, there's the improved AI which is more likely to land killing blows. All of these effects make March much more evenly balanced with other possible promotions, but also make it less attractive as a selling point.

Which is to say, I think the Carolean problem can be solved quite effectively by giving them Survivalism 1. Or, alternatively, a nonce promotion that does the same thing, but which doesn't lead to Survivalism 2 etc, doesn't stick around after upgrading to avoid Gazebo's "unique units not unique unit lines" objection, and possibly increases defense strength less. This addresses all of the ways they're weaker than they "should" be: the defense boost negates the penalty from March, the healing boost gets them back up to neutral strength healing, and the increased longevity means they're more likely to survive a couple of turns and then get out of active combat long enough to heal.

Thanks for moving conversation here. Surprised that Funak didn't show up, I was sure, based on his conviction that the Carolean is 'garbage,' that he'd have our solution.

I for one am looking at the Hakka 'stacking general' bonus strength promotion. Could be fun.

G
 
It's another example of the general problem of difficulty balancing late game civilizations.

There are no easy answers, because having a similarly strength improved unit many turns later is a negative. Same is true for buildings.

So units, or buildings need to be more powerful relative to earlier units/buildings (UUs) or the UA needs to be consequently even more powerful to make up for the time until the UU/UBs come about.

This is particularly true for Modern leaders, and the best ways I've seen it done is a UA that is extremely powered relative to others to get you to the proper UU or UB. Give you something to lean on and use until then.

Just general thoughts.
 
It's another example of the general problem of difficulty balancing late game civilizations.

There are no easy answers, because having a similarly strength improved unit many turns later is a negative. Same is true for buildings.

So units, or buildings need to be more powerful relative to earlier units/buildings (UUs) or the UA needs to be consequently even more powerful to make up for the time until the UU/UBs come about.

This is particularly true for Modern leaders, and the best ways I've seen it done is a UA that is extremely powered relative to others to get you to the proper UU or UB. Give you something to lean on and use until then.

Just general thoughts.

Sweden's UU and UB come online later (mid game and mid-late, respectively), but the UA is there from Turn 0. Sweden does really well in the hands of the AI in most games.

G
 
Surprised that Funak didn't show up, I was sure, based on his conviction that the Carolean is 'garbage,' that he'd have our solution.

Already told you that I'm done making suggestions, not worth my time when you don't even bother reading them.
 
Already told you that I'm done making suggestions, not worth my time when you don't even bother reading them.

Cool, so the new plan is to smugly throw around the word 'garbage' at things you don't like, and then refuse to contribute positively? Awesome. Tell me, what is it you do around here, again?

G
 
Are y'all sure you want to put a really powerful unit in front of the Swedish Cannon? I agree in the sense that the Caro is the very worst unit to see my Mil CS ally is going to be giving me, barring maybe the Ballista. But that's not the context. The context is that the Caro sits next to what I think is maybe the most powerful unit of the Ren-a Cannon that can move, set up, and fire in the same turn without having to build road mazes, which of course can't be done in enemy territory. Doesn't take that long to get Indirect Fire either, since you're getting XP a lot more frequently. I mean, maybe the Zulu UA Impi or a Golden Age 'Immortal Tercio' are better because you can build thirty of them if you want, but five vs five I'd take a Swedish Cannon over them all. And the increase in Walls and Castles makes elite Cannons even more important.

I guess the thing is, one of my most dominant difficultly appropriate wins ever was with Sweden, and the only times the AI struggles with them in my games is when they do 'too well' and rack up warmonger points. Personally don't think they need a buff at all. Maybe a few CS points to the Caro to make up for the March nerf.

And remember too, the Skola is at least a top third building now too, esp for those of who are still just going to be getting Ideologies in the Ind. All that change did to my games is make AI Korea and Ethi worse.
 
Cool, so the new plan is to smugly throw around the word 'garbage' at things you don't like, and then refuse to contribute positively?

Yeah exactly, that's my plan.

I'm not going to bring anything up, but the guy was asking specifically if the Carolean was weak or if it was just him thinking so, and he issue have been brought up multiple times so I gave him an honest response.
If he instead had been mentioning how he thought the Carolean is really strong I wouldn't have gone all "No you're wrong, the unit is crap", I would simply not have responded.
 
Are y'all sure you want to put a really powerful unit in front of the Swedish Cannon? I agree in the sense that the Caro is the very worst unit to see my Mil CS ally is going to be giving me, barring maybe the Ballista. But that's not the context. The context is that the Caro sits next to what I think is maybe the most powerful unit of the Ren-a Cannon that can move, set up, and fire in the same turn without having to build road mazes, which of course can't be done in enemy territory. Doesn't take that long to get Indirect Fire either, since you're getting XP a lot more frequently. I mean, maybe the Zulu UA Impi or a Golden Age 'Immortal Tercio' are better because you can build thirty of them if you want, but five vs five I'd take a Swedish Cannon over them all. And the increase in Walls and Castles makes elite Cannons even more important.

I guess the thing is, one of my most dominant difficultly appropriate wins ever was with Sweden, and the only times the AI struggles with them in my games is when they do 'too well' and rack up warmonger points. Personally don't think they need a buff at all. Maybe a few CS points to the Caro to make up for the March nerf.

And remember too, the Skola is at least a top third building now too, esp for those of who are still just going to be getting Ideologies in the Ind. All that change did to my games is make AI Korea and Ethi worse.

That's why I'm looking at simply giving it a 'flavor' promotion with the Hakka bonus CS if on a GG promotion. Not a huge boost, but at least flavorful and situationally useful.

G
 
Never played Sweden, so I couldn't say for sure. Somehow it doesn't calls me.

An improved Tercio, as Der Zorn Gottes says, is plainly better because you are going to produce it in bigger numbers. Even impis, another basic unit improved, lose their advantage with armored units. If we produce three times Tercios than any other type, it makes sense that its ability is three times worse. But anyways, we cannot compare unit by unit, but all uniques as a whole. Then again, if the ballistacannon is so amazing, the rest of the uniques have to be somehow weaker.

But there is a thing that annoys me. For me, the Tercio is a unit fitted for garrison, cheap, high CS, good defence. Giving them a bonus that weakens precisely its ability to defence seems counterintuitive for a garrison.

Reading the wikipedia, it seems caroleans were a small elite army force. Why don't just make them more expensive (so they are indeed a small army) and have a big CS bonus or free basic promotions, like Swagolo proposed?
 
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