tu_79
Deity
No, it's quite the opposite. The extra movement for siege units make them perform much better and earn more experience, which ultimately is what turn the scales. He is saying that with those so good cannons, who needs a powerful tercio?
Sweden
- Thread starter void_genesis
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No, it's quite the opposite. The extra movement for siege units make them perform much better and earn more experience, which ultimately is what turn the scales. He is saying that with those so good cannons, who needs a powerful tercio?
He is not talking about Sweden at all actually, the line was:
Translation: Carolean is the worst unit to get from a military city state (only possible if you're not sweden) except maybe the Ballista(always worthless).
(Ballista is a catapult replacement with +2RCS and nothing else)
tu_79
Deity
From pandasnail: "The context is that the Caro sits next to what I think is maybe the most powerful unit of the Ren-a Cannon that can move, set up, and fire in the same turn without having to build road mazes, which of course can't be done in enemy territory. Doesn't take that long to get Indirect Fire either, since you're getting XP a lot more frequently."
I took this is refering to the sWeden ability of +1 movement to siege units. If the siege units are so amazing that they can move and shoot the same turn, who cares that the Caroleans are not so good? Sweden as a whole is quite competent. The only problem is if by chance any CS gifts you a Carolean (you not being Sweden), because you don't have the amazing sweden ability to make up for it.
Please, pandasnail, clarify your statement!!
I took this is refering to the sWeden ability of +1 movement to siege units. If the siege units are so amazing that they can move and shoot the same turn, who cares that the Caroleans are not so good? Sweden as a whole is quite competent. The only problem is if by chance any CS gifts you a Carolean (you not being Sweden), because you don't have the amazing sweden ability to make up for it.
Please, pandasnail, clarify your statement!!
If unlocking at the same tech as the cannon is reason for having a boring/bad UU, then the correct response would be removing the UU. If you think that Tercios are strong anyways so the Carolean doesn't need to be stronger, then there is no point having a unique Tercio.
I just want to toss this in: I think the Hakkapeliita Great General stacking promotion would be a bad idea for two reasons. For one, it only gives +15%, which won't even actually be 15% boost after everything else is factored, and then only for one or maybe two units, probably at the center of the line, probably facing other infantry. With cavalry, that can work, since they can and will go after vulnerable targets where thay can really actually make a difference even on just one unit, but the more important part is this: Hakkapeliita could move after attacking. This is huge. Because Hakkapeliita could keep out of harm's way. Caroleans cannot. They are in fact meant to take the brunt of any assault, although they are not the greates at it with March's defense penalty. It is very dangerous to put your great general on a Carolean.
Maybe I'm overestimating the likelihood of the enemy focusing down the unit your Great General is on, or underestimating their mobility and ability to get away after a battle (particularly on the attack), but it seems like it placed them in a lot of danger. I could very well be wrong, but it seems like it would be much easier to be caught out if you're incentivized to put your GG in danger like that. Maybe that's good thing to represent them riding among the troops, but...I'm not sure either way anymore. Maybe give them Great Generals I promotion as well? That might be too strong with Sweden's ability, but...I'm not sure at this point. Healing on victory is probably a bit too powerful now that I realize what people meant about Swedish cannons, but I think Charge wouldn't be too bad.
Maybe I'm overestimating the likelihood of the enemy focusing down the unit your Great General is on, or underestimating their mobility and ability to get away after a battle (particularly on the attack), but it seems like it placed them in a lot of danger. I could very well be wrong, but it seems like it would be much easier to be caught out if you're incentivized to put your GG in danger like that. Maybe that's good thing to represent them riding among the troops, but...I'm not sure either way anymore. Maybe give them Great Generals I promotion as well? That might be too strong with Sweden's ability, but...I'm not sure at this point. Healing on victory is probably a bit too powerful now that I realize what people meant about Swedish cannons, but I think Charge wouldn't be too bad.
Also worth mentioning how clunky the Hakkapeliitta promotion actually was, and the fact that the only real useful part about it was that it made your GGs have 4 movement instead of 2. I also don't really remember the AI actually using it very well.
pandasnail
Prince
- Joined
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So I sorta said both things I guess. Sorry for any confusion! My main point was that I think the Swedish UA is just incredibly powerful. Someone has to have the worse UU, and the pairing makes sense to me. I mean, I've seen other posts where people say they can stay in permanent Golden Ages. I...don't know how to do that, so for me Persia is a boost power. Imo, there isn't even another contender for best military UA. And its prob too late to give them like a unique Great Writer or something. Homegrown Nobel Laureate: Magically appears if all the other European nations on the map fail to produce a Great Writer for five consecutive Industrial or later turns hehehe.
But I also did point out the Ballista as the worst 'unique unit.' I guess its fine since they obvi aren't attached to a civ, but if they were, they'd need a significant buff.
But I also did point out the Ballista as the worst 'unique unit.' I guess its fine since they obvi aren't attached to a civ, but if they were, they'd need a significant buff.
It looks like people agree that sweden is a underachiever civ, so what kind of changes do you think it deserves to make it a decent civ? I think the problem lies on the UA although the UB could use a small bump. Sweden UA is centered around siege units (The only specific one atleast) and being offensive, i dont think they have the best siege units (ottoman free promotion for siege units is better imo) and the GG healing is rather unreliable (the xp is kinda nice).
I think the UB is good, but it could use some a small change (considering how late it becomes available), also the UU is great so they do not need changes.
Combined arms is the main idea of the sweden leader, so maybe an UA centered on having a diverse army (cavalry, horse archers, infantry, archers and siege) but i dont know the AI can pull it off. Perhaps going deeper on the siege theme and make them even better (they used light cannons so maybe a chance to withdraw from melee attacks?).
Lets revive the discussion here.
I think the UB is good, but it could use some a small change (considering how late it becomes available), also the UU is great so they do not need changes.
Combined arms is the main idea of the sweden leader, so maybe an UA centered on having a diverse army (cavalry, horse archers, infantry, archers and siege) but i dont know the AI can pull it off. Perhaps going deeper on the siege theme and make them even better (they used light cannons so maybe a chance to withdraw from melee attacks?).
Lets revive the discussion here.
Still don't think they deserved that nerf they got, it was just a whole bunch of whining from people watching that quill18 lets-play. Yeah they were a pretty strong military civ, but there are alot of those around and Sweden weren't top dog among those.
If the battle window is correct ranged unit do not get the boost when attacking (I suppose technically its bombarding, not attacking? I would start by changing that, it would make Sweden the only civ with a direct buff to the archer line, and siege would benefit as well. Or maybe Swedish Siege units could not have the penalty targeting land units? Each individual piece of Sweden is interesting, when they come together its just not as powerful as other civs's bonuses.
I don't really care for March, the reduced healing in foreign lands hurts it, I use Tercio as a blockers and tanks to soak hits, Caroleans don't really do that better. Its hard to use them offensively on a large scale
I don't really care for March, the reduced healing in foreign lands hurts it, I use Tercio as a blockers and tanks to soak hits, Caroleans don't really do that better. Its hard to use them offensively on a large scale
What nerf did they get?
The CS bonus when attacking was lowered, as was the experience from GG spawning I think. Honestly don't remember that well, just remember that it was nerfed
CS was reduced by 5%. That's all.
You're 100% sure that the experience gained from great generals born didn't use to be 15 or so?
Turns out they were, at some point.
Pretty sure it is still 15 no? I don't recall changing that. If so it should be 15.
It's currently 15% attackbonus and 10 experience, I do remember it being 10% attackbonus at some point, but that was probably reversed while I was hibernating.
Do the great general bonuses need to only apply during war? They can be born during peace as a result of city state quests, it would be a pretty big rip off to lose that experience as right now I think its Sweden's biggest strength.
Upping it to 15 experience wouldn't be bad, but I think the big issue with Sweden is you have literally 0 economic bonuses until Scientific Theory, which seems to make Sweden really one-dimensional, and its warfare bonuses don't really match other nations
Upping it to 15 experience wouldn't be bad, but I think the big issue with Sweden is you have literally 0 economic bonuses until Scientific Theory, which seems to make Sweden really one-dimensional, and its warfare bonuses don't really match other nations
Yes the experience works during peace-time.
Are you sure? Because I can post a save where it didn't happen (didn't heal either)
And if it does the UA wording should be changed
You might be right, but I know I've actually tested this out at some point and it worked fine. Then again it was probably ages ago.
It really should work either way, as you said randomly triggering a city-state quest while at peace and not getting the experience because of that is horrible.
Well I've been working on an improved promotion for a bit for the Carolean anyways. Might as well share:
Really hammers home their offensive capabilities.
Really hammers home their offensive capabilities.
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